Forum Decorum PDF Print E-mail
Written by Joe Pluta   
Thursday, 14 June 2007

As the midrange world continues to get more interesting, we're going to need to work together even more, and a good place to start is the forums.

This article is entirely devoted to the idea of making the forums a kinder, gentler place for people to share information, and doing so is going to require that regular contributors learn to adhere to a slightly more civil demeanor, especially when dealing with "outsiders" or "newbies."

Anybody who knows me is going to point out that this is about as blatant a case as you are going to get of the pot calling the kettle black, and they would be right to do so. But just as the seasons change ("Turn, turn, turn.") so too must all things, including newsletters and online forums.

Why All the Concern?

As I said in the first sentence, the idea comes from the concern that forums aren't exactly the most welcoming place, especially for newcomers. Even though the tone in MC Press is nowhere near as unforgiving as what sometimes appears on mailing lists or other forums throughout the Internet, too many posts exist of the kind that we might consider unprofessional or, at the very least, unfriendly.

Today, one of the most important goals of any System i advocacy, be it a local user group or an online magazine, should be to foster the participation of newcomers. The fastest way to alienate those newcomers is to present an atmosphere that reflects elitism or condescension.

How to Be Mean

In general, I don't think anyone on the MC Press forums ever means to be mean, but instead it just sort of happens in the course of conversations, especially between posters who have known each other for awhile. The most common result of this sort of long-term antagonism is the ad hominem attack, in which someone might try to argue against a position by discrediting the person holding the position. Not only is this unprofessional, it's simply bad logic; the veracity of an argument ultimately has nothing to do with the person making the statement.

And while I try to avoid this sort of behavior, I still engage in it occasionally, and it's an activity I need to curtail. In the past, I have let personal feelings get in the way of my objectivity, and I've said things that were more personal than professional. When that happens, the personal issues become the central point of the discussion, and any real issue gets lost in the clutter. This causes people to tune out of the conversation and makes newcomers reluctant to say anything lest they get pounced upon.

So, if you find yourself typing a phrase that focuses more on another poster and less on the post, then it might be a good idea to step back for a moment and reassess what you are trying to accomplish with your comments.

And bad manners aren't limited to blatant actions such as personal arguments. Sometimes even the simplest phrases can be seen as offensive. Many "cute" little acronyms have crept into the lexicon of online banter and should be eradicated from civil discourse. One of my least-favorite phrases is "RTFM," whose meaning is well-known and needn't be repeated here. The gist is that the question is something that the poster could have found the answer to simply by reading some document or other. And while it's true that a very small percentage of posters use the forums as their own personal training and mentoring service, even seeing that phrase used "appropriately" might cause a newcomer to decide not to ask a question, and that's the exact opposite of the atmosphere we want to foster.

Smiley Faces Don't Make it Right

Another important point is that just sticking a smiley face—that little ":)" thingie—on the end of an offensive phrase doesn't suddenly make it professional. Or in my case, using an emotion tag such as "" doesn't somehow turn an uncivil comment into a civil one. While emoticons of various types may help to convey your mental state, they are no substitute for common courtesy and professional behavior.

So Why the Diatribe?

Well, it's because MC Press is trying to make sure that the forums are a little more amenable to professional discourse, especially to the newcomer. Up until this point, the forums have been largely unmoderated, with only truly egregious behavior invoking the wrath of the forum moderating deities. While I can't tell you the exact actions that might now trigger a visit from on high, nor can I tell you exactly what those actions might entail, I do know that decorum in the forums is a top priority moving forward.

We who are involved with the publication want to make sure that everyone who works on or around the platform feels comfortable posting questions and making comments. The old elite guard is no longer the only source of relevant information. Our primary goal ought to be to make sure that everyone—including first-time posters and "lurkers"—feels that these forums are the best place to exchange ideas and information without worrying about typing a name wrong or asking a question that has been asked before.

In short, MC Press wants to make sure that forums participants label no questions as "dumb" and that the most important subject is the future of the platform. To do that will require a new level of professionalism. We've perhaps let that slip a bit over the months and years, but it's nothing that a little self-policing can't fix. And if we can't do it ourselves, I suspect that MC Pres may decide to do it for us, and do we really want big brother (or sister) watching?

Joe Pluta is the founder and chief architect of Pluta Brothers Design, Inc. He has been working in the field since the late 1970s and has made a career of extending the IBM midrange, starting back in the days of the IBM System/3. Joe has used WebSphere extensively, especially as the base for PSC/400, the only product that can move your legacy systems to the Web using simple green-screen commands. Joe is also the author of E-Deployment: The Fastest Path to the Web, Eclipse: Step by Step, and WDSc: Step by Step. You can reach him at This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it .


Last Updated ( Thursday, 04 October 2007 )
 
Discuss (25 posts)
joman7@newnorth.net
Forum Decorum
Jun 29 2007 00:26:00
The forums for most of these sites categorize IT people in 3 ways. The first people I see are the ones who have time to invest grasping new enhancements to a compiler who have a lot of non-project time on their hands and look brilliant. These are the people that abhor fixing legacy code by the way. I don't blame them. They only pick projects that are "programming to the stars". Secondly, people who are defensive when you are asked to learn what they are doing. When you look at it, it is garbage that you know needs to be rewritten and have a good laugh. To a user they look like God. They are always fixing crap with crap that can never be fixed. Thirdly, IT people who had to adapt and learn in a short amount of time to complete projects for production. I don't know about anybody else, companies I worked for had NO budget for training. Which, is fine with me. I have bought books from mcpressonline, MISpress, university coursework, and others. I have read IBM manuals and had to let things soak in to learn. Most IT people have a chip on their shoulder and like the "GO TO" or "guru" facade. Everyone that I have seen act like that in my 20 year career always got burned in a matter of time. It pays to be a humble and careful programmer. The successful IT people I've seen, worked great in projects together as a team. With regard to new IT people, they have access to modern developments. They can't imagine coding the way it was 20 years ago. But, that's where provocativeness came in. They would know that exsr = perform = balr. I look at the young people and they think a dump is something left in the outhouse. Heaven forbid to add and subtract address displacement to find an error. If you want to be informative then get the chip off your shoulder. Otherwise, you will just chase good people away into a manual somewhere else. In reality, JAVA = RPG = COBOL = Assembler = C++ = NATURAL = SAS = FOCUS = TSO = SEU = ISPF = IDE = MVS = OS = OS400 = DOSVSE ""POWER"" etc.. Capice, Tisneyesh, Forshtenzy, UNDERSTAND!
#120335
Guest.Visitor
Forum Decorum
Jun 20 2007 18:07:00
"<i>some people are emboldened by the anonymous or at least consequence-free nature of the web</i> <p>Yes. For this reason I always use my actual name to avoid the temptation. I too had heated debates with you and others on this forum. However it was due to the fact that I respect and value opinions given in these debates. It does not take any respect away, but rather adds to it. <p>Still, if you or any regular contributor felt any lack of respect from me, I apologize.
#120334
J.Pluta
Forum Decorum
Jun 19 2007 20:00:00
And there have been cases in recent history where conversations have definitely drifted into the personal. We need to keep on the lookout for those sorts of posts and somehow curtail them. <p>Joe
#120333
J.Pluta
Forum Decorum
Jun 19 2007 19:58:00
Hans, your memory is a bit inaccurate. The thread happened five years ago, and the precise post be found here: <p><a href="http://archive.midrange.com/web400/200207/msg00060.html">http://archive.midrange.com/web400/200207/msg00060.html</a> <p>In it, I disagree with your premise that procedural languages are inherently "less capable" (your words) than OO languages, and point out why I believe that RPG is the best language for data driven business applications (a position I still hold). <p>I then continue on to wonder why someone who believes RPG to be fundamentally inferior is still on the compiler team. A bit tactless, to be sure, but far from calling for your resignation from IBM. <p>This, then, is perhaps why we should avoid personal statements like mine. Even five years later, that simple statement is enough to stick in your memory and in fact have grown even worse than it originally was. <p>Joe
#120332
David Abramowitz
Forum Decorum
Jun 19 2007 15:30:00
<i>Hans.Boldt said: I suppose what we've demonstrated is that point of view can adversely affect any discussion.</i> <p>IMO opinions may be stated, when expressed as opinions. When opinions are put forward as a point of fact rather than a personal expression friction is sure to follow. <p>It also helps to not put words in other people's mouths or make assumptions as to what they have, or have not done. <p>Many forum contributors base their comments on personal experiences, and that's fine as long these personal experiences aren't magnified into some writer's glorious universal truth that is to be applied to all, all the time. <p>It makes no difference if an individual believes that either Python or PL/I is the best thing since sliced bread, as long as the reader knows that (a) this is the writer's personal point of view, and optionally (b) some benefit may be derived from learning about the writer's experience with the product. <p>Just my $.02 <p>Dave
#120331
cwscholbe@dstsystems.com
Forum Decorum
Jun 19 2007 14:49:00
I agree that we should never be subjected to abusive personal attacks, however....for whatever consolation it provides....... <p>Once a person starts attacking you personaly...they have lost the argument. Once they can no longer continue the discussion on it's merits...they have lost. <BR>
Now they're trying to using smoke and mirrors and misdirection so that you don't realize that they've been "out discussed".
#120330

H.Boldt
Forum Decorum
Jun 19 2007 14:32:00
Hi Joe! Funny, I'm pretty sure you used the word "resign" with regard to my service at IBM! But searching the midrange.com archives turned up zilch. Perhaps it was elsewhere? Maybe, but the midrange.com forums are where we had are more heated discussions. <p>Likewise, I've never said I disliked RPG. I've said that RPG is not appropriate for certain tasks. I've said that Python is my favorite programming language. I've said (or at least implied) that certain RPG language features are goofy. I've said that RPG should never become an OO language. But none of that can be used to suggest that I dislike RPG. <p>Heck, when I get around to looking for a new job in the fall, perhaps I'll end up doing RPG programming! I certainly wouldn't rule out that possibility! (But I'm having a hard time now looking that far ahead. Relaxing and enjoying the summer is what I need to do now!) <p>I suppose what we've demonstrated is that point of view can adversely affect any discussion. You're convinced I disliked RPG. I'm convinced you called for my resignation. <p>I would disagree with you on one point: I see no need to avoid the personal side of things in any discussion. We all have our own personal biases based on our own personal experiences. Understanding these biases can help when trying to understand someone else's point of view. <p>Cheers! <a href="http://www.boldts.net/">Hans</a>
#120329
J.Pluta
Forum Decorum
Jun 19 2007 11:47:00
Thanks, Joel. I think that the MCPress Forums have the ability to be an important tool in the community. By remaining free and staying focused almost entirely on the midrange (and other technologies as they relate to the midrange), these forums have the ability to be a major landing place for newcomers. <p>And while it's impossible to guage ahead of time how popular any particular technical forum will be, it's simply common sense that uncivil behavior and wandering discourse is going to turn people off. It will take a little bit of work to keep the forums on track, but I think it can be done. <p>Joe
#120328
J.Pluta
Forum Decorum
Jun 19 2007 11:43:00
Yeah, I get whacked about the head and shoulders on a regular basis, but that's mostly because I stick my neck out <grin>. I am a big advocate of the platform and the things that make it great (like the RPG language). I also have a very technical background and I can be pretty annoying to people whose positions are based on less technical merits <grin>. <p>That's okay. As long as I avoid the personal confrontations, I usually get along with most people, although it might take a little getting used to one another. For example, last week I got the chance to meet some of the real movers and shakers in the Rational tooling world, and as it turns out I'm pretty confident that none of them have cloven hooves for feet, and in fact they want the System i to thrive. <p>Joe
#120327
J.Pluta
Forum Decorum
Jun 19 2007 11:35:00
Just to be clear on this, I'm pretty sure I never called for your resignation from IBM. My only issue was that it didn't make sense to have someone who so clearly seemed to dislike RPG working on the RPG compiler. And even that statement is open to debate, since some might argue that having an antagonistic viewpoint actually helps keep a vibrant architectural atmosphere. I know that when I managed architecture design, I expected my people to be passionate about their positions and ready to defend them against the most vigorous of attacks. <p>In any case, sticking to the technical questions and avoiding the personal side of discussions is the way to do things. <p>And yes, I do think that in general we agreed more than disagreed, and that our disagreements really were based more on principles than personalities; they occasionally got out of hand is all. :) <p>Joe
#120326
J.Pluta
Forum Decorum
Jun 19 2007 11:20:00
I certainly agree that email is a tough medium. In fact, the lack of body language leads to misuuderstandings similar to those commercials about the dropped calls, where the silence caused by the lost call is misinterpreted as the worst possible response. This is sometimes the nature of human communications: the simplest misunderstanding can turn a discussion personal, and once a discussion turns personal, it's quite difficult to ratchet it down. <p>And while it's not entirely impossible to return civility to a flame war, it's best to try and avoid it whenever possible. And like I said, be careful what you say, because even a smiley face or a <grin> won't necessarily be enough to avoid perceived unkindness. <p>Joe
#120325
J.Pluta
Forum Decorum
Jun 19 2007 11:15:00
I'm just getting caught up after having been away for the week and I'm trying to follow up on the messages, particularly in this thread, and I wanted to really emphasize someof your points. <p>First, snide comments or attacks on someone's intelligence or knowledge are really not acceptable anywhere. Unfortuantely, we've become inured to it. A good percentage of what passes for "comedy" in America (e.g. The Daily Show) is really personal attacks thinly disguised as satire. And even there the line is blurry; South Park contains some really brilliant satire, but then steps (nay, LEAPS) over the line (with mixed results). <p>But there is absolutely no place for that sort of stuff here in the forums. I really mean it when I sya that phrases like RTFM should be banned; there is nothing positive about telling someone that you think they're an idiot, and using an acronynm to boot because they're not worth the time to actually type a real sentence. <p>Policies against personal attacks should be strictly adhered to throughout the forums, and while Shooting the Breeze has a little leeway in subject matter, it shouldn't be a haven for poor behavior (and I think you agree on that). <p>Your points about asking questions properly, with enough information up front and then following up with a status post, are very simple but very effective techniques. And while you can enforce the latter to some point by simply posting a response that says "need more nformation," it's quite difficult to promote the latter except through leading by example. <p>Anyway, thanks for your input. I think this is an important topic. <p>Joe
#120324
J.Pluta
Forum Decorum
Jun 19 2007 10:58:00
I agree, David. But unfortunately some people are emboldened by the anonymous or at least consequence-free nature of the web. For example, there's at least one individual who takes advantage of a bug in the forum software to write really scathing anonymous remarks. <p>And it's a fine line. The best moderated forums are David Gibbs' email lists, and even those get a little out of hand from time to time (not that I would have anything to do with that <grin>). These forums have been largely unmoderated and it has worked reasonably well until recently. It's only in the last year or two that I've really seen a spike in uncivil and/or purposely hurtful behavior that prompted this article. <p>Joe
#120323
Guest.Visitor
Forum Decorum
Jun 17 2007 22:34:00
You gotta be kidding?!? Common came up with that? Somebody's been drinking some funny lemonade there. <p>I've felt like a ZIP a few times during late night installs and troubleshooting. <p>Thanks Joel, <p>Tom
#120322

J.Klebanoff
Forum Decorum
Jun 17 2007 14:21:00
Hi Tom, <p>I'm glad I could put a smile on your face, but don't thank me. Thank COMMON. I wasn't trying to be funny. That's what COMMON calls the group. However, I like your SIPs, DIPs and TIPs. <p>How about: <p> HIP - Heavy iSeries Profesionals <p> LIP - Loudmouthed iSeries Professionals <p> RIP - Rambunctious iSeries Professionals <p> VIP - Vacuous iSeries Professionals <p> ZIP - Zombie iSeries Profesionals
#120321
Guest.Visitor
Forum Decorum
Jun 17 2007 10:00:00
Joel, <p>It's good to see your "wit" us again. I laughed uncontrollably when I read YIPs. <p>The term is used in golf to describe an uncontrollable hand movement that interferes with one's putting stroke. It happens as golfers age, so, it's not supposed to affect young people. Whenever I miss an easy putt, I blame it on the YIPs. <p>Now, I can blame a program that doesn't work on the YIPs, too. <p>Other acronyms can be used. A senior iSeries professional is a SIP. A dual iSeries professional (one who works in two languages) is a DIP. TIP could refer to a teenage iSeries professional. Good TIPs are very hard to find. They are a rare species and they transform into YIPs in a year or so after creation. <p>Thanks for putting a smile on my face again, Joel. <p>Tom
#120320

J.Klebanoff
Forum Decorum
Jun 16 2007 10:04:00
Hi Joe, you make an excellent point. <p>At the recent COMMON in Anaheim I visited a YIPs (Young iSeries Professionals) meeting to talk with some of them for background on a potential MC Press article. One of the complaints I heard was that the various AS/400 aka iSeries aka System i forums out there (not specifically MC Press) tend to be dominated by old-timers who ridicule the YIPs mercilessly whenever one of them asks a question that the old-timers deem, in their infinite wisdom, to be naive. <p>That, the YIPs told me, was turning them off the forums. They wanted to find alternate sources of information. It would be a terrible shame if those fresh voices and fresh ideas are chased away from the forums.
#120319
scatterload
Forum Decorum
Jun 15 2007 17:19:00
kit: <p><i>was away from the as/400 for 3 1/2 years after serving in OIF for 14 months and then spending 18 months going through surgery and rehab after being shot and hit with bomb/rocket schrapnel.</i>&#32;<p><i>got back in and felt "dumb" because of all of the changes. the saving grace was that i used /free for a year before my call up and most did not, so they thought (quite in error) that i was a genius :)</i>&#32;<p>heck, i look at things from just a few months ago and can paraphrase the kid in 6th sense "i see dumb coding..." <p>as for the uncalled for attacks, they were prevalent with a few individuals that i am happy to not see contributing much in the past weeks. i love freedom of speech but the rhetoric needs to be smacked down sometimes. <p>-lost
#120318
kitvb1
Forum Decorum
Jun 15 2007 15:31:00
Can I at least call my own questions dumb? <p>Having been out of the RPG world for a number of years, and coming back about 2 years ago, I sometimes feel that the world has passed me by. <p>These forums and articles have been a great help but I agree with David Abramowitz (see first comment). In the past few months I have seen some really uncalled for attacks on some of the McPress contributors. <p>Regards <BR>
Kit
#120317

H.Boldt
Forum Decorum
Jun 15 2007 14:30:00
Joe: One of the problems with on-line communications via fora (such as this) is conflicting personalities. As you know, you and I have had some notable public disagreements, some of which resulted in you calling for my resignation from IBM. Three years ago, part of your wish was granted and I got shuffled away from RPG off to a different project that needed staffing. And more recently, your call was made complete when I got fed up with the pressures of working on that new project and left the company completely! <p>But that's besides my point. Believe it or not, but I've even had heated discussions with people on a forum dedicated to model railroading! The personality conflict with one other particular person got so bad I decided to take an extended break from that forum. When I returned about a year later, I found no sign of that person. The forum owner told me that during my absence he took a hissy fit, deleted all of his postings, and left to concentrate on his own model railroading forum! The forum owner was not at all upset to see that guy's backside. <p>I'm not sure if I have any specific advice on this particular aspect of the problem. You can't always stay away from potentially contentious discussions if you truly believe in your point of view. But if you do respond, best to stay away from questionable tactics, such as the ad hominem attack or the strawman argument, even if the other uses such tactics. If you have facts on your side, present them objectively. If your argument is based on personal experience or opinion, make sure that's made known too. <p>If there are points of agreement, these should be mentioned. Sometimes disagreement is only over subtle nuances and can get overblown as arguments are misinterpreted or stated in a less than ideal form. <p>As for our "discussions", Joe, I think on the whole, you and I have agreed on more things than not. Disagreement is always bound to occur, and in general is what makes life interesting. But as a rule, we all have to recognize the slippery path disagreement can potentially take us, and take appropriate action to prevent flame wars, or worse. <p>Cheers! <a href="http://www.boldts.net/">Hans</a>
#120316
scatterload
Forum Decorum
Jun 15 2007 13:57:00
<i>never saw a more heated discussion than the one many years ago when (i forget who) a poster jumped all over joe pluta for a difference in opinion.</i>&#32;<p>made me realise that not all battles are on a declared battlefield. <p>-lost
#120315
pete@valadd.com
Forum Decorum
Jun 15 2007 12:29:00
Joe, <BR>
I agree with what you say but most of the problem is that many forums were originally designed to post a question and get an answer. Usually, that is very straight forward. However, when the posts are more discussion based, such as topics involving product naming and marketing or the relative merits of one vendor's products vs another, then an electronic forum is a very poor medium, primarily because once we move out of the area of facts and into opinion, then body language, facial expressions, hand gestures, voice inflection and the like become hugely important. Using an electronic forum to discuss opinion is like kissing through a screen door: most the essentials are missing. <p>As a society we have become increasingly interpersonally impoverished because of electronic communication. We use it in place of true, personal dialog. I am not sure that we'll ever be able to overcome the impersonal nature of electronic communication but what you suggest will help. Perhaps when quality real-time, screen to screen video is possible, this problem will go away. Until then, staying away from opinion and using fact focused responses will certainly help. <p>Pete
#120314
Guest.Visitor
Forum Decorum
Jun 15 2007 11:26:00
Joe, <p>Good article. Some heated discussions do tend to get personal. I've noticed it in places where someone has chosen a technology or methodology and someone else questions its use or completely bashes it. I can't count the number of posts that take personal shots at people for using or not using something. Such as: you're an idiot if... you don't use free format; do use indicators; aren't learning or using (take your pick) Java, WSDC, .Net, etc. <p>There are posts making snide remarks if a question has been asked by someone who is "foreign" or seems to be new to the platform. You are correct when you point out the incivility in a lot of answers to what some of us regard as simple or dumb questions. Remember, we were all new to the platform at some point and had lots of questions. I know I drove my IBM systems engineer crazy in the early days with questions. <p>There is only one place that a stricter code should not be enforced is in "shooting the breeze". That should be less formal. Personal attacks and such are not welcome anywhere. <p>A few things I'd like to see more of: <p>1. Use mixed case. It's easier to read. That's why we use it in code. <BR>
2. Check spelling. <BR>
3. If you asked a question, come back to the thread an let us know if and how the ideas posted helped you. Or, if you found a better method, let us know that, too. <BR>
4. If you're asking questions, please state your O/S release, put in as much detail as possible, put the question in context telling us what the application is and how it is used. It can be hard to answer a question when you don't know any context. And, there are multiple answers to many questions depending on the context. <p>Tom
#120313
David Abramowitz
Forum Decorum
Jun 15 2007 09:04:00
It's actually a shame that the need arose for this article to be written. <p>Dave
#120312
MC Press Web Site Staff
Forum Decorum
Jun 29 2007 00:26:00
This is a discussion about <B>Forum Decorum</b>.<p align='center'><a href=http://www.mcpressonline.com/mc?1@232.1KNKfHX1eQT.17@.6b506c7a>Click here for the article</a>.</p>
#120311


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