It's not about competition, folks...

[Guest.Visitor]

Joe said, about Best Buy: "How can I continue to support a company that lays off my coworkers for no reason other than greed?" Joe, I'm struggling hard to try to support your ideas. Unfortunately, I find them too parochial instead of broad. It seems that "we" in this forum are up in arms about outsourcing of jobs ONLY because it's I.T. workers being displaced. Did we call it stop buying Nike shoes (insert any shoe company here) because they stopped making shoes in America? Did we stop buying GE or RCA televisions because the TV assembly workers were outsourced to Taiwan? Did we stop buying Ford or Chevrolet cars because the radios are no longer made by American workers? Did we stop shopping at Vons or Safeway or A&P because they sell vegetables from South America displacing American farmers? Are we to believe that outsourcing just began with the I.T. job? The way I see it, many professions and jobs have been outsourced over the last 200 years. It's just now getting up to the I.T. profession. In any event, I DO believe that, as in the past, some jobs/professions get outsourced and newer jobs and professions come along to replace them. Certainly, 50 years ago, no one would have dreamed that we would have had an entire industry that consists entirely of computer programmers. That entire profession sprang up mostly in the last 30 years ago. If we were to be having this discussion about outsourcing I.T. jobs in 1960 then no one would care. In conclusion, I think the fire alarm is ringing in this forum because the fire is in our house. We've ignored the fires in many of the other houses in the neighborhood because they didn't affect us. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[ACT]

OUTSOURCING is bad to the affected few, but to boycott company's that outsourced some of its business functions is not only immoral, but also bad economics. Kill the company and you displaced its whole organization.

[Guest.Visitor]

But if you don't boycott Best Buy then their competition, who doesn't outsource IT overseas, goes out of business because they can no longer compete, unless they outsource IT overseas too! I'll gladly boycott Best Buy or anyone else for just that reason. One thing is for sure. Any politician running for office this year that doesn't support keeping jobs in the USA will be unemployed. Chris

[J.Pluta]

"Unfortunately, I find them too parochial instead of broad." Chuck, I have come to the conclusion that one sure sign that a position is sensible is that you disagree with it. Joe

[J.Pluta]

Hardly immoral. It is capitalism at its finest. Voting with the wallet, the American way. And I'm NOT looking to kill the company, simply making sure they stop outsourcing. As soon as they do, I will once again give them my business. By the way, I already have put this plan in motion. I wanted to buy a new game, which I would normally have bought from Best Buy. This purchase will not be made. That's fifty bucks they lost already. Typically a large part of my Christmas shopping is done there as well. Not this year. Joe

[J.Pluta]

You got it, Chris. Outsourcing is NOT inevitable. It can be stopped, simply by proving it is uneconomical. And since we know that the "savings" companies are seeing is actually quite negligible (if it exists at all) then it's really easy to make it uneconomical by using our buying power. But if we don't, if we listen to the outsourcing apologists like those who inhabit this forum, then of course we will see outsourcing take over. It will be a self-fulfilling prophecy. But if instead Americans stand up and get counted, we can do a lot. In my state, we just reversed the vote on an issue that the state legislature was about to pass overwhelmingly. The bill would provide driver's licenses to illegal aliens, and was set to fly through the legislature. But the citizens of Illinois got pretty upset about the idea and started writing and faxing their congressional representatives, and a week later the bill was soundly defeated. One proponent of the bill even went so far as to exhort his colleagues to "not pander to their constituents". Get that? "Pander" to the constituents? See, that's the problem. Many elected politicians have forgotten just who they serve. Political action groups are in their faces every day, and they forget that they actually get elected by us. But when enough people write letters and faxes and make phone calls, they remember. It's a little different with corporations. They don't usually respond as readily to public pressure. Instead, they respond to the simplest of motives: greed. And it's real easy to hit them where it hurts - simply stop buying their products. For every item I typically purchase at Best Buy, there are at least three other places I can do business. And while I prefer the convenience of Best Buy, it's more important that I do my part, no matter how small, to promote those companies that still put Americans first. Joe

[David Abramowitz]

I would support a boycott, if I thought that there would be any impact. But I think that a boycott for this purpose would be negligible, and perhaps counter-productive. IMO There are legitimate weapons against outsourcing:<ul> Convincing congress to remove the tax breaks that corporations get for foreign outsourcing practices. Making it known to the public the firms that are outsourcing workers. Public comanies have a vampire-like aversion to the light. Making shareholders aware that in at least 25% of all outsourcing efforts, a company will actually lose money in the deal. Publicizing that foreign outsourcing is a losing deal before the deal is made. Currently CEOs are just listening to outsourcing salespeople, and in many cases are not aware of the downside. Publicizing the decimation of University Computer Science departments, and how this affects overall American security, and capability in the long run.[/list] Dave

[J.Pluta]

David: "I would support a boycott, if I thought that there would be any impact. But I think that a boycott for this purpose would be negligible, and perhaps counter-productive." Why? Let's say they're outsourcing 1000 jobs. Let's in turn be VERY generous and say they're saving 40,000 a head (we of course know that this is nothing like the truth, but just for argument's sake). That's 40,000,000 dollars. If 100,000 people (that's only 2000 people per state) choose not to buy a few hundred dollars worth of goods from Best Buy in a given year, then you've completely gutted their cost savings. Yeah, I know there's revenue vs. profit (we can talk about inventory costs), but even those numbers get beat if we're talking about camcorders, laptops and TVs. And the truth of the matter is that after costs and overruns and delays, they'll be lucky to save a few million dollars. That's just 1000 big screen TVs, or a couple of thousand laptops. Not to mention the fact that these dollars are going to competitors. Joe

[David Abramowitz]

Joe Pluta wrote: If 100,000 people (that's only 2000 people per state) choose not to buy a few hundred dollars worth of goods from Best Buy in a given year, then you've completely gutted their cost savings. I just don't see those numbers happening. OTOH If there is a publicized groundswell I would be delighted to join in. OTOOH, I have a mental picture of a rainy day with a lonely ignored picketer. OTOOOH I need both hands to count the major electronic store chains that have gone out of business all on their own in the last few years. IMO An ineffective campaign without enough people will actually boomerang by giving the target name recognition, and increased sales. Dave

[J.Pluta]

"IMO An ineffective campaign without enough people will actually boomerang by giving the target name recognition, and increased sales." IMO you're simply looking for excuses to not do anything. To me, it's better to try and fail than not to try at all. And of course, if everyone waits for someone else, nobody will do anything. In any event, if you're not willing to try, then don't bother complaining. Joe

[David Abramowitz]

How dare you Joe. You, of all people should know that I have never sat idly by on important issues, and in terms of outsourcing, indeed, I have been active, and I think (and I hope) that you realize that. In terms of activity, I have assessed that a boycott may not be appropriate. Recriminations will not convince me otherwise. ad hominym. Dave

[J.Pluta]

"How dare you Joe." David, you're the last person who should complain about personal criticism in these forums. You're never one to shy away from expressing your opinion of others' actions, so don't get your back up when I express my opinion of yours. Sauce for the goose, and all that. I think your assessment that a boycott will increase sales is specious and is in fact dangerous. It provides an excuse to those who want the convenience of Best Buy, but still want to complain about the unfairness of it all. That way they can say they have been active while in fact not doing anything at all. I'm not saying that's what you are doing, but I am saying that your position is unsupported and needlessly negative. If you don't want to boycott, fine, but don't slam those who find it appropriate with unsupported arguments about publicity and increased sales. And maybe even offer some alternative solution, eh? Anyway, no offense meant, and I hope you take it in the spirit given: trying to find active steps to take to combat this problem. Joe

[ACT]

The American Way - buy a product based on the value of your $$$. People who do otherwise deserved to be in the iron curtain. No options, No Choice, No Freedom. Boycott is a counter-productive exercise and American consumers are wise buyers who will not take this route. What will happen then to the fine men and women manning the Best Buy stores day in and day out? You penalize them...RIGHT ? And these are the people who will be affected most if we behave like irresponsible ordinary JOEs.

[J.Pluta]

[laughing!] You're a funny, funny man. All of a sudden you're worried about American workers! Except you don't seem to give a damn about the nearly 1000 workers who will be put out on the street. The integrity of your position has now been clearly defined. Joe

[Guest.Visitor]

Joe, I spent over $300 at Best Buy on Sunday. I also vote with my dollars. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Joe Pluta" <Joe_Pluta@mcpressonline.com> wrote in message news:6aea2e89.4@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > Hardly immoral. It is capitalism at its finest. Voting with the wallet, the American way. And I'm NOT looking to kill the company, simply making sure they stop outsourcing. As soon as they do, I will once again give them my business. > > By the way, I already have put this plan in motion. I wanted to buy a new game, which I would normally have bought from Best Buy. This purchase will not be made. That's fifty bucks they lost already. Typically a large part of my Christmas shopping is done there as well. Not this year. > > Joe

[Guest.Visitor]

Joe said: "But if we don't, if we listen to the outsourcing apologists like those who inhabit this forum" I like the innuendo. I'll take the bite. It also appears that you simply just don't get my drift. I'm not for or against outsourcing. I'll be blunt. What I'm against is those who have ignored outsourcing for the last 50 years and then suddenly cry foul when it hits their profession. It's hypocritical and a case of someone saying their profession is more important than others. It's clear that people in other professions have adapted to being outsourced, why can't we adapt? Maybe we're just a bunch of old farts who can't stand change. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[Guest.Visitor]

Joe said: "In any event, if you're not willing to try, then don't bother complaining." On this we agree! chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[Guest.Visitor]

Chris said: "One thing is for sure. Any politician running for office this year that doesn't support keeping jobs in the USA will be unemployed." I think the gay marriage issue will have a much bigger impact on the election. Most see the outsourcing of I.T. personnel as retribution for the havoc that the I.T. industry caused in the late 90s. "They got what they deserved." chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[cwscholbe@dstsystems.com]

To kumargovindas: The American Way is to shop not only for value for our dollar but to support those companies who share our values. An extreme example would be if a XXX Video store offered cheap VCR players (at lower cost than my local video store). I would still NOT buy from them based on price alone. It is incumbant on us to support the companies that share our values. Instead of suggesting that we are penalizing a company by not buying from them...look at it this way...we reward another company when we purchase the product from them. It's called competition. THIS is the American Way. If they want my dollars, they must compete for it. And competition is not based on price alone.

[J.Pluta]

Nicely said, Chris. Joe

[Guest.Visitor]

Chris said: "The American Way is to shop not only for value for our dollar but to support those companies who share our values." In your opinion, of course. Chris said: "It is incumbant on us to support the companies that share our values." So, who is "the keeper of the values?" If I don't agree with your version of the "American Way" does that make me a bad guy or simply un-American? Chris also said: "Instead of suggesting that we are penalizing a company by not buying from them...look at it this way...we reward another company when we purchase the product from them. It's called competition." I agree. But Best Buy will still get my dollars. We can find fault with any company if we look hard enough. Do you shop at Ikea? All of their I.T. is overseas. Do you boycott Allied Van Lines? They are owned by a British company. Do you eat at Burger King? Another British company. Do you buy a GM car? Their entire I.T. is outsourced. I can remember when I was a child and lots of cheap products started showing up from Japan. My dad wouldn't buy anything made in Japan because of Pearl Harbor and WWII. Yet, today, things made in Japan, such as a Lexis or a Sony camcorder are considered high end products and we proudly use such products. Look at it this way. ALL of the Lexis and Sony IT departments are overseas! Consequently, if you want to not purchase anything from any company that has their I.T. outside the U.S. you'll be living in an empty house. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[cwscholbe@dstsystems.com]

Chuck, I am more than a little surprised at your response. Of course these are MY opinions, as are the comments you express here. Who is "the keeper of the values"? I am...You are...each and everyone of us. I could care less who you spend your money with...that is your decision. The point of MY post was not in relation to outsourcing IT. It was to express MY opinion that when I make a purchase I consider more than just the price. Things like quality, and yes...is this the kind of company that I want to support with my dollars, and even if it comes down to a choice between a product made here and made "elsewhere" (all other things being equal) I would probably pay a little more to buy a product made in America. (please hold your comments that some of the parts may be made outside the US). I understand the global economy. But consider for a minute, if you had a choice to buy a product made in America (from american parts put together in the USA) and a product that had nothing made or built in the USA and they were the same price and quality.....which product would you buy? MY personal choice is to buy American products when I can. If you want to "bash" me for expressing MY opinions and values....go right ahead. I couldn't stop you anyway....nor should I try....the 1st amendment you know.

[Guest.Visitor]

Chris said: "The American Way is to shop not only for value for our dollar but to support those companies who share our values." Then said: "If you want to "bash" me for expressing MY opinions and values....go right ahead." Sorry if I misunderstood, but if you reread the first quote I think you'll agree that it was not presented as an opinion but as a fact. If it was an opinion then I think I'll have to politely disagree. Why? I don't have any inkling as to what the values of a company is. And, I certainly can't surmise it from the outside by listening to sound bites on the TV or on slanted articles on "news" websites. Chris also said: "But consider for a minute, if you had a choice to buy a product made in America (from american parts put together in the USA) and a product that had nothing made or built in the USA and they were the same price and quality.....which product would you buy?" You pose a potentially tricky question... I DO make my vote with my dollars. I specifically have chosen never to purchase an automobile where the profits are not kept in America. This isn't something that I suddenly chose because of the current world affairs. I made this conscious decision over 30 years ago. And, I don't buy a foreign car and compromize my beliefs by sheepishly saying that, "well, er, um, gee it was assembled in America. That's good enough for me!" I look where the profits and taxes on those profits go. Consider this. Purchase a Mercedes (or Chrysler or Lexis or Porsche or Nissan) for big bucks and you are handing over thousands of dollars in the form of taxes to a foreign government who pretends to be our ally and then uses this money to undercut us at their whim. (Again, I agree with you that nothing is 100% U.S. made, but where the corporation's headquarters is located IS important from a tax standpoint.) I have no idea if GM or Ford share my "values" and it's simply not important to me. I only know that when I buy a GM or Ford car the taxes on those profits stay in America. I give too many of my dollars to the American government already, I don't want to pay taxes to Germany or Japan also. IMO, the American Way should be to keep as much of my disposable income out of the hands of foreign governments as possible. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[dacust]

Chuck, The last time I read anything on this, the actual profit to a foreign company producing a car here in the US is only hundreds, not thousands. With the large portion of the taxes, labor, staying here in the US. However, this doesn't take into account where the individual parts are made. The foreign designed cars usually have a few more foreign made parts, but not a huge amount. If you are saying we should maximize the money we keep in the US by buying US made, AND US owned, then I see your point. But if you are thinking that buying a US made foreign car is as bad as buying a US car made in another country, please note that economists have long said that buying made in US is many times more important than buying owned in US. Just wanting to make sure I understand what you are saying............ -dan

[ACT]

Consumer's Doctrine: Buy at the Affordable Price, Acceptable Quality, and a Reliable Service/Support. Nowhere in the equation is the outsourcing issue. In fact product origin is always synonymous with Quality or Service/Support. It's a consumer perception based on experience. But, we're talking here of a retail store who is going to outsource 1000 jobs. Assuming the idea of a boycott will take off and a winner. Best Buy will go bankrupt and 50,000+ people will go unemployed and we don't care for these souls because they are not from I.T. What kind of mentality is this? Is this the American way? I'm sure the majority would rather take the lesser evil - not to boycott. Personally, I'm against outsourcing, but to boycott is not only disruptive, but also uncivilized. My advice, buy with your concience. Don't be swayed by evangelists with a hidden personal agenda.

[J.Pluta]

Your mind works in mysterious ways, kumar. A boycott does not make a store go bankrupt (unless they continue to do what is being boycotted and EVERYBODY decides to stop doing business with them). A boycott is also a time-honored American tradition, hailing back to the Boston Tea Party. You might try reading a little history before trying to tell me what is or isn't American. And I don't know what YOUR agenda is, but mine, while it might be personal, is definitely not hidden. <smile> About the only thing I do agree with is "buy with your conscience". Choose between a chain that is obviously willing to sacrifice American jobs for a few extra pennies on the share price, or some other competitor. Easy choice for me! Joe

[Guest.Visitor]

Kumar, You make me laugh. Do you really think the Best Buy CEO / President or the entire board of directors would allow a boycott to drive the company bankrupt? No, if a boycott impacted earnings, they would take a corrective action (example - bring jobs back to the uUA) instead of staying the course. Obviously, you're not a business person. Even if Best Buy did go bankrupt <insert laughter here>, that means their competition needs to hire people because their competition picked up a few billions dollars in extra business. Chris

[nycsusan@hotmail.com]

Chuck said, "... I have no idea if GM or Ford share my "values" and it's simply not important to me. I only know that when I buy a GM or Ford car the taxes on those profits stay in America. ... " Chuck, The CEO's profits and salary stay in the USA when you buy a GM car, but the average jobs don't. GM manufactures cars overseas and they actively ship IT jobs offshore. Now, if you prefer to make an American CEO rich rather than a German or Japanese one, fine. But buying a GM car doesn't help average Americans more than buying a Nissan or other so-called foreign car manufactured in the US.

[Guest.Visitor]

Joe said: "About the only thing I do agree with is "buy with your conscience". Choose between a chain that is obviously willing to sacrifice American jobs for a few extra pennies on the share price, or some other competitor." This is silly. So, because Best Buy gets some press that isn't favorable we should switch over to Circuit City, or Good Guys, or Target? How do we know that those companies haven't done some atrocities much worse than Best Buy? Oh, of course, we didn't see it on a web site! Ok, I bet if I scour the web long enough I'll find some dirt on Circuit City. But, you know what? My life is too short to spend my time worrying about where NOT to shop. So, what I gather is this... If we see something we don't like in the news or on a web site about a company then we should immediately boycott. The only thing that will come of that is the promotion of dirty tactics by competitors. And, what if the news about Best Buy is incorrect? What if they were just floating the idea in a executive meeting and someone leaked out the information? No amount of denying the leaked information will deter the "boycotters" once their snowball is rolling down the hill. I'm all for boycotting those who violate the laws or illegally use the visa laws but I will NOT boycott them until they've been convicted of a crime. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[Guest.Visitor]

I know VP level IT exec who got laid off in the last year, who just spent two weeks in India, and family members say he's got something cooking with Best Buy.

[B_Sing]

<sarcasm on> But, Chuck, we're mad at the injustices in the world and we want to protest! It's not about the competition, it's about us! :-) <sarcasm off> What's funny is that the article didn't even say the jobs were going offshore. If all 900 of those "1000" IT jobs were off-shorable, that would be amazing. And what of the 8,500 middle manager jobs that the article mentions are being eliminated? Is it "un-American" to get rid of those too, or is it just the IT jobs? Hmmm...If we boycott that store, I wonder where we'll go to buy our offshore-produced electronic goods? Brian

[cwscholbe@dstsystems.com]

We vote with our dollars everytime we make a purchase. This does not mean that the competitor (that we did not buy from) will automatically go bankrupt. However, companies do go out of business because people don't buy their products. This is called competition. I agree that we should not judge companies soley based on a single news item and react irrationally. Yes, it is difficult to know whether a company has a philosophy that you want to support or not. However, when I receive "reliable" information (wherever that comes from) then I evaluate it and choose whether I want to buy from this company or not. If this is not part of your thought process....fine. I am not able to do this for each and every company, but I do the best I can. I too would like to keep as much of the profits, from my purchases, stay in the USA with US companies. I would also prefer that jobs stay in the USA. These are MY opinions.

[B_Sing]

I like these ideas, David! Full disclosure. Do you have any specifics on the tax breaks that companies get? Brian

[David Abramowitz]

Chuck Ackerman wrote: Well, actually, I've never purchased a GM car. I've only owned Chrysler and Ford products. Each and every one of my cars were manufactured on U.S. soil. Are you sure about that. TTBOMK Chrysler maintains a plant in Windsor Ontario, and Ford has plants in Spain and Mexico. BTW, I recently learned that "The Simpsons" farms out much of the animation process to South Korea. Dave

[Guest.Visitor]

Susan said: "GM manufactures cars overseas and they actively ship IT jobs offshore. Now, if you prefer to make an American CEO rich rather than a German or Japanese one, fine." Well, actually, I've never purchased a GM car. I've only owned Chrysler and Ford products. Each and every one of my cars were manufactured on U.S. soil. Susan also said: "But buying a GM car doesn't help average Americans more than buying a Nissan or other so-called foreign car manufactured in the US." I'll have to disagree. The profits stay home and are reinvested in the business or employee salaries. Much of the profits in Japanese cars are use by Japanese companies to purchase U.S. land. Much of Hawaii, the Wilshire district in L.A. and many other cities is owned by Japanese corporations. Conversely, the Japanese government does not allow non-Japanese companies to purchase Japanese land. Also, taxes on the profits for Japanese manufacturers does not go to the U.S. coffers. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[David Abramowitz]

I wish I did. My contacts are a bit unclear, except to say that the tax code provides such breaks. Evidently this is because there are many provisions that may be taken advantage of, and depending on the situation one company may take a tax credit while another takes a deduction. Apparantly there are several loopholes, and they run wide and deep. The full disclosure measures are still being hashed out. I hope to have something specific should anything turn into a "bill". Dave

[Guest.Visitor]

"Working together, we can train one million teachers to integrate technology into lesson plans, outfit 100,000 schools with wireless communications and computing capabilities, and deploy 10 million computers in classrooms over the next five years in Southeast Asia," Craig Barrett, Intel's CEO

[B_Sing]

RE: the tax stuff, I did see some stuff here (http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/clips/news_2004_0326.html) on Kerry's web site. <blockquote><tt>Current tax laws allow American companies to defer paying taxes on income earned by their foreign subsidiaries until they bring it back to the United States. If they keep the money abroad, they avoid paying U.S. taxes entirely. </tt></blockquote> <blockquote><tt>Kerry would require companies to pay taxes on their international income as they earn it rather than being allow to defer it. The new system would apply to profits earned in future years only, not retroactively. </tt></blockquote> <blockquote><tt>He also would allow companies to defer taxes when they located a business in a foreign country that serves that nation's markets. A U.S. company seeking the tax break could open a car factory in India to sell cars in India, for example, but could not relocate abroad to sell cars back to the United States or Canada. </tt></blockquote> But that seems like it will only affect those companies with foreign subsidiaries, which is certainly not most of the businesses in the U.S. And you've got to watch the voodoo B.S. promises from all politicians, of course. My favorite one so far: Kerry says his plans will create "10 million jobs", but according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics (http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm), there are only 8.4 million unemployed people in America (paragraph 2, sentence 1). So does that mean more work visas? :-) Brian

[B_Sing]

Is that supposed to be bad? I see an American multinational company wanting to sell 10 million computers. They're not giving them away. They'll sell to whoever will buy. It's business. Should they not do it? Brian

[Guest.Visitor]

[Guest.Visitor]

David asked: "Are you sure about that. TTBOMK Chrysler maintains a plant in Windsor Ontario, and Ford has plants in Spain and Mexico." Absolutely. It's easy to check, there's a metal plate on the panel of the driver's door which discloses the location of the factory. BTW, you're right that Chrysler did manufacture some of the mini-vans in Windsor. I purchased 3 Voyagers over the years and when I ordered them (I always order my cars) I specifically asked for a Voyager produced in St. Louis. David added: "BTW, I recently learned that "The Simpsons" farms out much of the animation process to South Korea." Since I've never seen a full Simpson's episode (just not my kind of humor) then I guess I've effectively boycotted their product, eh? Unfortunately, it didn't send them into bankruptcy! ;-) chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[B_Sing]

:-) It is ironic that other nations are investing heavily in their educational systems to gear up to compete on an international basis while we debate this goofy stuff as our own graduation rates aren't what they should be. Brian

[Guest.Visitor]

I must be ready for the recylce heap. None of this seems goofy to me. I don't want to keep technology away from any country, but if we don't keep up and then one up we will pay with our freedom. Our freedom and present and past standing in the world(if you don't like my pronouns, boycott me, don't read em')was won with the use of technology by people with values. Without values we are just a bunch of animals preying on each other. When I was younger American values were good. I will continue to fight to keep em good and pass those on to my grandchildren. We cannot benefit if we knowingly let the cistern run dry. It is not wrong to believe in things and fight for them. It is only wrong if it is bad things. The wish to live in a strong country that stays strong is not a bad thing. It is not a bad thing to wish to survive. Look around at weak countries. We, we , we.

[B_Sing]

I agree with everything you said. It's my belief that we need to do everything we can do as individuals and collectively to compete on an international level to keep our country what it has been and is. It ain't gonna be easy... Brian

[Guest.Visitor]

Is there a cultural gap here?... Or are the supposed IT intelligentsia less sophisticated than I assumed? Let me lay it out fer'ya Singy, baby! Bigtime CEO cries "foul" when he discovers the workers in his Homeland crave to live in a manner in which they are accustomed to. "Are they not knowing the Freedom of Capitalism is True Enlightemment?", he thinks. Gets on the phone to the nearest Pacific Rim Country, "Can you make your people eat dirt for a quarter?". "Sure, come on over" is the reply. Bigtime CEO fires hundreds or thousands of employees telling them, "Get a Life!". Spends millions on training and schooling his new-found slave..oops, Work Force in said Pacific Rim Country instead of investing in his Homeland (where he lives High on the Hog) by re-training and educating the People he has just fired and forgotten. Get it NOW?

[Guest.Visitor]

I must be ready for the recylce heap. None of this seems goofy to me. I don't want to keep technology away from any country, but if we don't keep up and then one up we will pay with our freedom. Our freedom and present and past standing in the world(if you don't like my pronouns, boycott me, don't read em')was won with the use of technology by people with values. Without values we are just a bunch of animals preying on each other. When I was younger American values were good. I will continue to fight to keep em good and pass those on to my grandchildren. We cannot benefit if we knowingly let the cistern run dry. It is not wrong to believe in things and fight for them. It is only wrong if it is bad things. The wish to live in a strong country that stays strong is not a bad thing. It is not a bad thing to wish to survive. Look around at weak countries. We, we , we.

[B_Sing]

<blockquote><tt>Or are the supposed IT intelligentsia less sophisticated than I assumed? </tt></blockquote> You can count on that! :-) <blockquote><tt>Bigtime CEO fires hundreds or thousands of employees telling them, "Get a Life!". Spends millions on training and schooling his new-found slave..oops, Work Force in said Pacific Rim Country instead of investing in his Homeland (where he lives High on the Hog) by re-training and educating the People he has just fired and forgotten. </tt></blockquote> Look at the post again. Nowhere in the quote did it say that Intel was spending money over there. The way I read it, they're just selling systems to those who will buy them. Bizniz and all that... Globalism is here. What we are accustomed to is changing rapidly. We need to become accustomed to that and do what we can to stay competitive. Personally, I'm glad it's at least an American multinational corp selling them systems, rather than one from another country. At least they still have some roots here, even if the chips are probably manufactured elsewhere. The question and debate is, what can we do to keep them here, make sure they contribute their fair share for the benefits derived from being here, and to add enough value so that we can keep jobs here as well? Brian

[Guest.Visitor]

Sounds like the "American Way" to me! ;-) chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "bobtheplanet" <bobtheplanet@mcpressonline.com> wrote in message news:6aea2e89.45@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > Is there a cultural gap here?... Or are the supposed IT intelligentsia less sophisticated than I assumed? > > Let me lay it out fer'ya Singy, baby! > > Bigtime CEO cries "foul" when he discovers the workers in his Homeland crave to live in a manner in which they are accustomed to. "Are they not knowing the Freedom of Capitalism is True Enlightemment?", he thinks. > Gets on the phone to the nearest Pacific Rim Country, "Can you make your people eat dirt for a quarter?". "Sure, come on over" is the reply. > Bigtime CEO fires hundreds or thousands of employees telling them, "Get a Life!". Spends millions on training and schooling his new-found slave..oops, Work Force in said Pacific Rim Country instead of investing in his Homeland (where he lives High on the Hog) by re-training and educating the People he has just fired and forgotten. > > Get it NOW?

[T.Stockwell]

I recently had an interesting exchange that typifies, in my mind, how the outsourcing process will ultimately fail for companies. My son (23) signed up for a credit card at Old Navy to receive a discount on his purchase. (That, of course, was his first mistake.) He then "offshored" himself for several months, traveling in Cambodia and Thailand. He never received the credit card, nor any credit card billing statement. When he returned, he received a telephone call from someone claiming to work for Old Navy collections. The person identified himself as working in the credit department, saying that the bill for a $50.00 pair of pants was never paid, and that the bill -- with penalties -- was now at $150.00. Would my son like to make payment with another credit card now, over the phone? My son, of course, said he'd never received the bill, nor the credit card. No matter, said the Old Navy bill collector. He had to pay or his credit rating would be dunned. OK, said my son. But I have no other credit card. "Send me the bill, and I'll take care of it," he said. "No can do," replied the Old Navy employee. "You have to take care of this now. Do you have a checking account?" "Of course." "Then give me your checking account number, and I'll withdraw it over the Internet." At this point, my son was a bit confused and asked me to listen in. "Where are you located?" I asked. "How do I know you are, really, an Old Navy employee?" He told me he was calling from India, gave me his employee number, etc. I asked him "Are you an employee of an outsourcing organization?" To which he replied "Well yes! I work for GE Financing!" (In the background, I was sure I could hear people humming "America the Beautiful", and I instinctively knew why they thought it was so beautiful: We made the Internet.) I said "Give me a telephone number where I can check up on your employment status. I won't give you the account numbers to my bank account. Who do you think you're calling? An American?" "Sorry. You can't call me directly," said the Indian employee who claimed to work for Old Navy, but who really worked for somebody else, who was owned by GE. "But if you have a problem with this, you can call Old Navy, directly." I said "I DO have a problem with this! You could be anyone running a scam!" "No! No! I'm a legitimate person!" But he gave me the telephone number anyway, which I called, and ended up AGAIN in India. (Reach out and touch someone....) So, instead we finally called the Old Navy corporation itself, and talked to someone in Cleveland to express our outrage. As it turned out, yes, the person in India was legit -- working through another company (GE) who had outsourced to a large Indian collection agency -- and yes, the person was following Old Navy policy book for collections. In fact, the person in Cleveland actually had the record of the call on their screen. We took care of the transaction appropriately -- she reduced the charges back to the original $50.00 and prompted the credit department to make certain that the billing address was correct, and sent my son a real credit card. And the person in Cleveland -- who was very much aware of the outsourcing issue -- secretely prompted us to write a message to the Old Navy corporation. (Her job meant something sort of important to her, too.) However, the experience was very sobering for both me and my son -- who had just returned from a third-world country where poverty and a need for jobs is real. In our minds, however, there wasn't much difference between this outsourced service in India and the daily emails we both receive from ousted regime leaders in Nigeria and South America -- no adequate identification, no adequate security, no validity checking, and -- ultimately -- a request for access to funds. I estimated that we spent, in total, about an hour and a half on the phone with the guy from India, and about five minutes on the phone with the woman in Cleveland. It wasn't a language thing that made the difference. It wasn't the distance thing either. It was the simple fact that the person in Cleveland was concerned about providing service to her customer, and the person in India was concerned about making the collection. The person in India didn't care that my son had never received his credit card, and had no concern that he had never received an invoice for his purchases. He didn't care if my son NEVER purchased another thread of clothing from Old Navy. He worked for somebody else, on behalf of Old Navy, in another country, on another continent, in a galaxy far away. He made probably half as much money as the woman in Cleveland, but he took at least ten times longer to make his collection. He was cordial, polite, intelligent, and ineffective. But, ultimately, the system -- as it exists now -- was corrupt because it ruined the customer experience for the benefit of paper savings. BTW: "Everyone, please send me the user ids and passwords to your bank accounts. I know you didn't get the credit cards I sent to you, but that's not my fault. I really don't care that your identity was stolen: You owe me money. And "Yes," I was recently removed as president of my small third world country, but I was -- fortunately -- able to stash a considerable amount of money before they caught me. With your help -- and a little electronic hacking -- I think we can all be rich together in India." What's the difference? Makes perfect business sense to me!

[J.Pluta]

Brain said: "It's my belief that we need to do everything we can do as individuals and collectively to compete on an international level to keep our country what it has been and is." And protective trade barriers always have been and always will be part of an intelligent strategy to allow gradual economic harmonization without global instability. It's worked fine for centuries as countries build themselves. Japan is a perfect example. It has never made sense for countries to compete on a dollar-for-dollar basis when one country's standard of living is one-tenth the other. There is no competition. Joe

[B_Sing]

<blockquote><tt>And protective trade barriers always have been and always will be part of an intelligent strategy to allow gradual economic harmonization without global instability. It's worked fine for centuries as countries build themselves. Japan is a perfect example. </tt></blockquote> Not according to history and experts such as Alan Greenspan (http://www.ajc.com/business/content/business/0304/11greenspan.html). Do a Google search for "protective trade barriers" and read what you find (from credible sources). Then add "Great Depression" to those terms and hit it again. Some argue that the stock market crash was more of a cause than the protectionism that came 6-7 months later, but others counter that the market anticipated the laws coming because of the delay between discussion and implementation, and that's one reason the market crashed. I think that's a reasonable theory. Japan, with its protective trade barriers and guaranteed jobs, has been in a very tough, decade-long recession that even ultra-low interest rates and high exports haven't been able to bring back. One of the reasons why India and China are doing so well is that they adopted some of the trade policies that the US has been preaching for so long. It's my understanding that they have a ways to go, but they're going. There are lots of ways we can do better, but protective trade barriers don't seem to be one of them. IMHO, about the only thing our government can do to discourage off-shorers is what David suggested above. The other thing they can do is whatever it takes to encourage entrepreneurs and small and large businesses, in the hopes that we can keep an edge that way. And foster education as much as possible. There are many, many stories of offshore failures. Perhaps there are opportunities right there, helping companies bring it home, for example. Brian P.S.: The SBA (http://sba.gov/starting_business/index.html) has all kinds of helpful stuff. That's my version of the "American Way". I have also recently had a chance to visit my local Chamber of Commerce, which I found very inspiring. P.P.S.: Sorry for the long rant. I guess I'm as passionate about this stuff as you are. ;-)

[J.Pluta]

Brian (not Brain, sorry about that <grin>) said: "the market anticipated the laws coming because of the delay between discussion and implementation, and that's one reason the market crashed. I think that's a reasonable theory." This is silly. The market "anticipated" the laws. Now we don't even have to use cause and effect for our conversations, we can instead posit a predictive marketplace. Karnak of Wall Street! Also remember that all of your "history" is posited on those old 19th century models that don't take into account the ability for the top jobs to bemoved offshore. It's the skimming of the top that's killing us, something that was never possible before. The order that works is for lower-tech jobs to be farmed out after being supplanted by higher-tech jobs - jobs that could not be farmed out to the lower standard of living countries because of simple geographic difficulties. Now, though, we're farming out the high-tech jobs and wiping out the economy. It's like anything - without moderation, people tend to over-indulge. Corporations have been outsourcing the low-tech jobs for a long time, with the common sense result that emerging countries pick up those jobs and build their economies and their standard of living to the point where they can naturally compete without poaching jobs from other countries (as ths visas do). But now the corporations can outsource the high-paying jobs, too! And their greed is so rapacious that they'll do it with no regard for American workers, as has been shown by the past four years of nearly zero job growth. If you look at the employment figures and still insist that this is a good thing, then you and I have different ideas about "good". Anyway, you believe that Wall Street acts based on the future. Me, I just look at the facts, and the facts are that America is being destroyed. Or maybe that's what you consider "good". Joe

[David Abramowitz]

Thank you for sharing this experience. It speaks volumes. A friend has sent me a link of a webiste, that has an offer which many of you may want to consider: http://www.cafeshops.com/itpaa.9604355 Dave

[B_Sing]

<blockquote><tt>This is silly. The market "anticipated" the laws. Now we don't even have to use cause and effect for our conversations, we can instead posit a predictive marketplace. Karnak of Wall Street! </tt></blockquote> Well, like I said, it sounds reasonable to me, as I believe people invest with an eye towards the future. But it is just a theory, and there are lots of those. The State Department has a slightly different one (http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/time/id/17606.htm). It's my understanding that the trade barriers and the retaliations they brought certainly didn't seem to help matters. The theory (again, a theory) regarding job churn is that resources will be freed to do other things, hopefully better ones. And those that don't innovate can work for those who do, so there's supposed to be net job creation. That's the theory I choose to believe and implement whenever possible. <blockquote><tt> ...America is being destroyed. Or maybe that's what you consider "good". </tt></blockquote> Are you calling me a traitor? That's an awful thing to do for someone who merely has a difference of opinion, and it's an uncivil way to discuss/argue. I hate how we (figurative) are becoming so polarized as a society that anyone who has a different opinion is an idiot or a traitor. We really need to pull back on that so we don't come apart at the seams. We're all in it together. Brian

[B_Sing]

Now there's an example of innovation at work! That guy's gonna be rich. :-) Wish I'da thoughta that. Brian

[ACT]

Chris said: "Even if Best Buy did go bankrupt <insert laughter here>, that means their competition needs to hire people because their competition picked up a few billions dollars in extra business." Well, a good example is when Circuit City close its doors in my area, no other electronic store pick-up the slack. Now Gateway is closing too. Who will hire these people ? So your point is very way off. Joe said: "A boycott is also a time-honored American tradition, hailing back to the Boston Tea Party. You might try reading a little history before trying to tell me what is or isn't American." Oh yeah!!! Your talking of America, still a colony of the British Crown. And by the way BOSTON TEA PARTY is not a boycott, it's a revolt. In parallel to that event, it's just like going to BestBuy, pick-up any merchandise and throw it outside the garbage can( instead at the Boston harbor). But, we're talking here of a free, modern and vibrant AMERICA Joe were the rule of law should be uphold.

[Guest.Visitor]

Kumar, That's too bad about those businesses leaving your area. Are you in a small town? Maybe the area just couldn't support those businesses. Usually where ever you find a Circuit City, you find a Best Buy, HH Gregg, etc nearby. You can always shop online, you know, www.circuitcity.com, etc. Who knows, maybe the web sites are maintained companies in India! Chris PS: I found a great website on outsourcing, ITPAA (http://www.itpaa.org), if anyone is interested

[cwscholbe@dstsystems.com]

Kumar, We seem to have a very different understanding on an important point. It is NOT my responsibility to ensure that every business that opens a store stays in business forever. Yes, it is VERY unfortunate for the people who loose their jobs, but it happens (I've been there).... for all sorts of reasons. Remember folks...these are MY opinions

[R.Daugherty]

Hi all. I got an MC email update and clicked into here. Been a long time. I was laid off last fall and all my complaints the past few years turned out to be depressingly true. I hate to be right all the time. :) For the moment I'm publishing a book unrelated to programming, so we'll see how long that keeps me going. Hopefully long enough for a job to be brought back onshore. Nice thread, I saw nearly everybody in it. My thoughts: I agree with almost everything everybody said, which is a major first. I had to give up trying to buy Made in USA several years ago. I literally couldn't find the tag anymore. When I asked for it, I was asked if I was with a union. It's just plain true that manufacturing jobs by the millions were lost and no one complained about low prices from stuff made elsewhere, although I complained to any sales clerks within earshot, usually none, that quality and service was apparently out of fashion. The new public awareness of our jobs crisis is only peripherally related to IT, actually probably only those in the IT profession and their loved ones are aware they are being affected as well. It's the continuing massive loss of manufacturing and now customer service jobs that has gotten the attention of the masses. Those 8.4 million unemployed are joined by everyone else scared their job is next. It's nationwide, and it even has people more worried than Iraq. That's literally scary. I'm a Democrat and strongly support Kerry, but the 10 million jobs and Bush's projection for this year of generating 3 million jobs are based on numerical requirements having absolutely nothing to do with reality. The exact number projected by Bush was enough to replace the jobs lost in his term and add a few hundred thousand. If the projection wasn't that high, then they would be projecting that Bush would be the first to lose jobs in a presidential term since the Depression. Whether he does or not, you certainly can't project it. :) Same with Kerry. With 8+ million unemployed and 100,000+ needed each month to keep up with population growth, so I keep readiing, 10 million is a convenient number that gives employment to all current unemployed and new entrants to the job market in his term. He has no more idea how many jobs will be created than I do of when I'll get my next job. :) Not to go off topic though, he does have an aggressive plan for developing national energy sources to replace importing some oil that is projected to create half a million jobs, so that's a good start on a number of fronts. On being active about doing something about our loss of jobs, I don't think anyone has been more active than Dave all these years. I was quite pleased to see that the efforts of many of you such as Dave and Susan and others on H1-B resulted in the quota reverting back to 64,000 despite the literal lies being told by greedy corporations and their shills. Lo and behold, I was amazed to start seeing RPG jobs advertised recently without the ubiqitous "locals only". Still no relocation, but there never was much in advertisements. But locals only was a killer. I was tempted at times, no I take that back, I did at times take up residence in parking lots behind Denny's to meet that requirement but those were tough times. Well, maybe these are tougher even. This is now the American worker against corporations who are looking for that boost to next quarters numbers by lowering labor costs. There is nothing in their calculus about the loss of their customers as they and other corporations lay off millions. When one does it, they think they've outsmarted everyone. When everyone does it, they've all outsmarted themselves. They better hope they get new Indian and Chinese customers because Americans won't have any money to buy anything. It's a boycott, but an involuntary boycott. Much more effective, unfortunately. Well, the theories are just that, theories. Greenspan and the free traders have no idea what they're doing. This is new territory, untrodden by economists who quite frankly never did know why anything did what it did. Ask ten economists a question and you'll get eleven answers. The free trade answer is it's good to make something for the cheapest cost, and if we don't someone else will. According to that logic everything will be done and made elsewhere, because there will always be cheaper elsewhere. Oh, but they can't innovate like we can, they say. That is a level of ignorant arrogance surpassed only by the Romans many centuries ago, and we know what happened to them. Ok, to solutions. I'll post a link to a post I made on my site and add something else here. In addition to all government purchases being of US made products competing on a balance of cost and percentage of domestic value, we have to drop out of NAFTA and WTO and impose a tarriff on imported products from countries based on the trade imbalance. For example, China's $100 billion trade deficit is 20% of our $500 billion annual trade deficit. A 20% tarriff would be imposed on imported goods made in China by anyone, including US corporations. Should the Chinese start buying enough US made goods to balance the trade then the tarriff disappears. Here's the link, and great to see you all again. Hope I can post something technical soon. A Call For Action On Unemployment http://www.justiceforchandra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1397 rd

[David Abramowitz]

Ralph Dougherty wrote: On being active about doing something about our loss of jobs, I don't think anyone has been more active than Dave all these years. Thank you Ralph. Dave

[nycsusan@hotmail.com]

kumargovindas said, "... Well, a good example is when Circuit City close its doors in my area, no other electronic store pick-up the slack. Now Gateway is closing too...." Perhaps no electronic store opened in your area because there is no "slack" to pick up. This is the scenario I, indeed a lot of us who oppose outsourcing, predicted. With middle class jobs leaving the country, there is less disposable income available for items like electronics. And people with jobs think twice about spending money on electronics, or entertainment, or travel, etc., when they realize that their job could go overseas next. This situation will get worse until there are comparable (salary-wise) alternatives for the workers displaced by outsourcing. Unemployed or underemployed people typically will not spend money at Circuit City or Best Buy or other non-essentials.

[Guest.Visitor]

Thomas M. Stockwell wrote: > I recently had an interesting exchange that typifies, in my mind, how > the outsourcing process will ultimately fail for companies. But this experience does NOT show the downfall of international outsourcing, this could have easily happened with a US collections company. Stories have abounded for decades about the ruthlessness of collection agencies and this one was no different. Bill

[B_Sing]

Interesting article... Entrepreneurs are born, but can they be taught? (http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/management/2004-04-07-teach-entrepreneurs-moms_x.htm) Brian

[dmjae2004@yahoo.com]

They plan to put nearly 1000 American IT workers out of work, in all likelihood shipping their jobs to India. As you can see, this is not about a corporation "struggling to survive" or anything like it. It is about greedy corporate owners squeezing every last penny of profit possible at the expense of American workers. Perhaps you are reading a lot into the article that was not there. Checking other sources it is likely the outsourcer will be Accenture and previous outsourcing of the help desk was EDS. Infoweek (http://www.informationweek.com/story/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=18401086) Computerworld (http://www.computerworld.com/careertopics/careers/story/0,10801,91915,00.html) According to these articles many of the people will transfer across as part of the outsourcing. It seems from the comments in this thread the concern is more on offshoring, than outsourcing.

[nycsusan@hotmail.com]

Dave400 said, "... Checking other sources it is likely the outsourcer will be Accenture and previous outsourcing of the help desk was EDS. ..." Both Accenture and EDS (a.k.a. Electronic Data Systems) are known to send jobs offshore. Check the Exporting America list: http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/lou.dobbs.tonight/

[Guest.Visitor]

A google search of "Accenture India" found some interesting links. Did you know they are doubling their IT work force in India? Click here (http://www.internetnews.com/bus-news/article.php/3115851). Chris

[Guest.Visitor]

Thanks for the link! Circuit City is on the list of offshore outsourcers. HH Gregg is not. Chris

[dmjae2004@yahoo.com]

So should Joe be boycotting Best Buy or Accenture and EDS ? The articles do make reference to that most of the existing Best Buy staff would/did transfer. A number of posts in this tread suggest the introduction of Government Tarrifs is required to "protect" the local IT industry. If the government did introduce the tarrifs how do we expect the local IT industry to respond ? In other industries where these tariff protections exsit the industry has also needed to respond with improvements. P.S. It seems E-Loan have come up with a reasonable approach Offshore Opt In or Out (http://www.broadbandreports.com/shownews/40407)

[R.Daugherty]

That was a pretty good discussion on that forum. Thanks for the link. The two day delay if an American call center is used is explained by the CEO as because India is 12 hours off. The explanation is interesting. He says if the call is taken in India, America works on it that day, then India that night. But if American call center takes it, America works on it that day and then it sits overnight, then they work on it next day, resulting two day delay. So back office processing is mixed in with call center option. It is an interesting "all American" or "international, but call center is always India choice". Call center could always be American and overnight backoffice processing performed in India, but then that would always be chosen and e-Loan wouldn't save the labor costs,so of course they won't offer that. As for tarriffs protecting IT jobs, as far as my post goes the tarriffs I propose are against all imported products, including telecommunications services and goods from American subsidiaries, based on the amount of trade imbalance. If a country buys as much as we sell to them, there is no tarriff. That is trade, after all, is it not? Trade is fine. Exporting creates jobs. Without exporting though there is not enough trade, just importing instead of importing and exporting at comparable levels. China has a $100 billion trade deficit and would not buy an American product they could rip off to save Mao Tse-Tung's memory. A 20% tarriff, their share of our trade deficit, can be used by the government to buy more expensive American made goods instead of importing it. If China and India buy as much as they sell, then we're trading, there are no tarriffs, and God bless them. rd

[J.Pluta]

"So should Joe be boycotting Best Buy or Accenture and EDS?" <sigh> Folks, I'm not suggesting anybody else do anything, so this isn't as organized as a "boycott". What I am saying is that I find Best Buy's employment practices reprehensible: in a period of huge growth, they are laying off IT workers. Because of this, I will choose to shop elsewhere. I hope other people do the same, but you need to come to that conclusion on your own. Why I continue to post in this thread is because some people have the mistaken belief that maximizing profit to the exclusion of all else is capitalism. Not true. Capitalism does not mean cutting every cost to the bone. It means creating a successful business. If you can get comparable return for the same investment, you consider it, but any such change demands that you factor in incidental costs (turnover, training, and so on) and intangibles, such as customer satisfaction and employee loyalty. It also means having certain responsbilities to the community and to your employees. But these sensibilities get lost once a company becomes locked into the 90-day stock price cycle. Personally, I think the demands of Wall Street are often diametrically opposed to what is good for the American worker. This case is a perfect example. I feel Best Buy is practicing poor corporate citizenship by dumping employees solely to add a few pennies to the earnings per share column. If you don't feel the same as me, then by all means, buy stuff at Best Buy. As to Accenture and EDS, I by definition boycott them, if you'd like to use that term. I won't do business either with or for them. Joe

[ACT]

Chris said: "Circuit City is on the list of offshore outsourcers. HH Gregg is not" Where in the world is HH Gregg located? Timbuktu? Joe said: "Folks, I'm not suggesting anybody else do anything, so this isn't as organized as a "boycott"." This is "Parachute Journalism" at it's finest. Now I can call you a liar. Next time make your reporting accurate for credibility is very volatile. Also, take a refresher course in history. Susan said: " Perhaps no electronic store opened in your area because there is no "slack" to pick up" Their is a slack to be pick up, but the problem is that it will take time ( 2 years of planning, feasibility study, buiding and organizing staff to my knowledge ) to put up a store. "It's easy to demolish, but difficult to build" so the saying goes.

[R.Daugherty]

Gee, someone that makes me look nice in comparison. That's hard to do. rd

[dmjae2004@yahoo.com]

Joe wrote "What I am saying is that I find Best Buy's employment practices reprehensible: in a period of huge growth, they are laying off IT workers. Because of this, I will choose to shop elsewhere." But as I read the articles Best Buy management believe they can be more efficient by outsourcing their IT. The vast majority of their existing employees transfer as part of that outsourcing. I am missing what is so reprehensible about this action. As per my original post of this thread, I think you jumped to an incorrect assertion that this was all happening as an offshore effort with a major loss of US jobs.

[Guest.Visitor]

Well, the real question is where are <u>you</u> located? Why is Circuit City closing doors there? Surely your local newspaper has written about this. Perhaps they are closing doors because their outsourcing projects failed. Just tell me the name of your city (and country?) and maybe I can do a google search or call their customer relations and tell you why! HH Gregg is about 5 miles from me, an easy drive. Best Buy is closer but... Have you heard of the internet? It allows you to buy things online. Ask Mark Cuban. He bought a $40 million dollar jet online. Or do you need to shop and have the product on the same day? Chris

[ACT]

Joe said: "They plan to put nearly 1000 American IT workers out of work, in all likelihood shipping their jobs to India" The truth is most of them ( not all, since the VP already resigned ) will be absorbed by EDS or Accenture, which is under negotiation. This will bring more revenues to Illinois or Texas. In short the JOBS will stay here in the USA not offshored to India. I suggest you double check your source to avoid this type of trouble typical in "Parachute Journalism". I understand that some people from this tread go ballistic after this misinformation that not only American I.T. jobs will be lost, worst of all it will be offshored to India. Sorry folks FALSE ALARM !!!!! I suggest you apologize to Best Buy for putting them in bad faith.

[J.Pluta]

I commented on what was reported: "And the company says it might dissolve its information technology department and use an outside company instead. About 900 IT jobs could be affected." Where have you read that the jobs will be absorbed? Are you certain it will be EDS or Accenture? Because Best Buy changes its story often. "Best Buy may be looking to outsource more of its IT operations, sources say. Accenture is being considered for the contract, according to the sources. No details were available about which IT operations might be involved in such a deal. A Best Buy spokesperson wouldn't confirm or deny the deal." http://www.informationweek.com/story/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=18401086 On March 19th Best Buy wouldn't confirm nor deny the rumors. And as recently as March 27th, Best Buy was flatly denying it: "The company also denied that it would cut an undisclosed number of technology and call center employees with their duties assumed by another company, Accenture. No agreement has been signed, the company said." http://www.washtimes.com/upi-breaking/20040327-095504-7906r.htm And then suddenly, the news comes out on March 31st that they are cutting jobs. Four days after denying it. What else might they be less than forthcoming about? Perhaps about where the jobs will go? Because Best Buy has been known to use Indian companies for outsourcing, going so far as to name Wipro as its "premier information systems partner" in 2002. So exactly what misinformation has been had? They are laying off 900 workers. Nearly 1000 programmers will be out on the street, for no reason other than adding a few cents to the earnings per share. I didn't misrepresent that. And putting people out of work when business is booming just to make a few extra bucks is a bad idea; bad enough for me to stop patronizing the store. Maybe you're upset about my intimation that the jobs could go to India. I didn't say they WOULD, but I said they would "in all likelihood" be offshored to India, and I still believe that based on Best Buy's long relationship with Indian bodyshops such as Wipro and Tata. Loss of jobs in Minnesota rarely means more employment elsewhere in the United States these days. Yet, you state as fact that this will result in more jobs in "Texas or Illinois". Where is your proof that the jobs lost will be "absorbed" by EDS, or that EDS is even the company getting the contract? It could be Accenture. Or it could be Wipro, at which point we know there will be no hiring in America. And even if EDS or Accenture gets the job, it's just as likely that they'll increase staff using offshore workers as onshore workers. I've seen nothing to indicate that either company would be willing to take on the salary burden of 900 American programmers. Where is your proof? And that is more to the point: my statements are simply opinions based on reports from news sources. I've presented them as such, and I provide links to my sources of information and then express my opinion; you are free to make up your own mind. You, however, are making statement of fact with no corroborative information. Additionally, your tone is consistently antagonistic and uncivil. If you expect me to respond to any more of your comments, you'll need to post as a professional. Act civilly and start providing proof to your statements. Otherwise, don't expect responses. Joe

[Guest.Visitor]

Joe said: "Personally, I think the demands of Wall Street are often diametrically opposed to what is good for the American worker." This is exactly right. And it's because the regulations of the SEC require public companies to do what is best for the shareholder not the employee. This is why I work for private companies. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[Guest.Visitor]

Chris, What is an HH Gregg? chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Chris Ringer" <Chris_Ringer@mcpressonline.com> wrote in message news:6aea2e89.74@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > Well, the real question is where are you located? Why is Circuit City closing doors there? Surely your local newspaper has written about this. Perhaps they are closing doors because their outsourcing projects failed. Just tell me the name of your city (and country?) and maybe I can do a google search or call their customer relations and tell you why! > > HH Gregg is about 5 miles from me, an easy drive. Best Buy is closer but... > > Have you heard of the internet? It allows you to buy things online. Ask Mark Cuban. He bought a $40 million dollar jet online. Or do you need to shop and have the product on the same day? > > Chris

[Guest.Visitor]

Joe said: "I commented on what was reported" And that seems to be the problem with many opinions these days. We BELIEVE what is reported. I listen to NPR (National Propaganda Radio) periodically not to get the news, but to get a laugh. Their news is so far left that it's a joke. So, just take every news source and discount it by about 50% and then you might have a valid news item. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[Guest.Visitor]

Susan said: "With middle class jobs leaving the country, there is less disposable income available" Boy, I don't see that in my area. When disposable money is tight weeknight restaurant fare is the first hit. Just try to get into a Chili's on a Tuesday night and it's a 30 minute wait. Same for almost any restaurant around. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[Guest.Visitor]

Chris said: "It is NOT my responsibility to ensure that every business that opens a store stays in business forever." Amen. 96% of all new businesses fail in the first 5 years. Imagine if the government were called in to try to prop them all up! chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[B_Sing]

NPR is funny like that (as are many others). Yesterday after the Rice testimony, the commentator (Nina Totenburg, perhaps?) just matter-of-factly referred to Richard Clarke as a "whistleblower". Yeah, right. More like hornblower.

[Guest.Visitor]

I think this is interesting: http://www.internetnews.com/ent-news/article.php/3338121

[Guest.Visitor]

I was listening to NPR the other day after Richard Clark testified. They gave snippets of Clark's testimony. Then they gave a report stating that Clark had said things a year ago that contradicted his current testimony. Hey, I thought, NPR's giving both sides of the story, maybe they've turned a corner. Alas, later during the dreaded "pledge break" the local station was giving out copies of Clark's book with a $75 donation. Yikes! chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "B_Sing" <B_Sing@mcpressonline.com> wrote in message news:6aea2e89.83@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > NPR is funny like that (as are many others). Yesterday after the Rice testimony, the commentator (Nina Totenburg, perhaps?) just matter-of-factly referred to Richard Clarke as a "whistleblower". Yeah, right. More like hornblower.

[ACT]

Joe, For your eyes only: "The Wall Street Journal recently reported that an internal Best Buy memo indicated that Accenture Ltd. is preparing to assume management of some of the company's IT services and telephone call centers by June 1. The memo stated that Best Buy anticipates that a significant percentage of IT associates will be offered positions with Accenture, according to the Journal" This is dated April 5, If you want to dig for more, I suggest you get a subscription of the WS Journal to keep you abreast of the latest development. What you have is history ( dated March ), a lot of things have transpired by then. Your figure of 900 programmers is absolutely wrong. If they have that much programmers with their size of around 20B per annum sales, then I think they have so much fat in I.T. programming staff to get rid off. I'll bet my last shirt, they only have less than 200 programmers, which I'm sure will be absorbed. I suggest that you stop insinuating based on unreliable sources. Again you made wrong ASSUMPTIONS...WIPRO, INDIA, TATA... This is just a figment of your wild imagination. Wake-up and stop dreaming. Personally, I don't like your [laugh]...[laugh] antics too.

[J.Pluta]

Your numbers make no sense. I said 900 IT staffers, based on the report I quoted at the beginning. That number is perfectly reasonable. Even at 40K per year, the total is less than 1% of their operating expenses. That's hardly an overwhelming number. As to the supposed WSJ report above, it's based on old news. Your dates are inaccurate. http://www.bizjournals.com/sanantonio/stories/2004/03/22/daily39.html I already reported this. Best Buy then denied any layoffs according to a report on the 27th. As far as I'm concerned, based on the misinformation I quoted in earlier posts it would require an overwhelming leap of faith to take any Best Buy statements at face value. Anyway, this conversation has lost all semblance of productivity. I simply said Best Buy are jerks for outsourcing IT staff during a time when they are making record profits. I think it's a stupid, shortsighted move and it is despicable enough to me that I will take my business elsewhere. You don't like it? That's your own opinion. I can't make you share my point of view. But one thing I can do is to avoid further interaction with someone who acts unprofessionally and disrespectfully. Phrases like "Wake-up and stop dreaming" are not acceptable, and I will not tolerate them, especially from someone who uses a pseudonym. Good day. Joe

[ACT]

Joe, You questioned my 900 programmers figure. Who wrote this statements then: "And even if EDS or Accenture gets the job, it's just as likely that they'll increase staff using offshore workers as onshore workers. I've seen nothing to indicate that either company would be willing to take on the salary burden of 900 American programmers. Where is your proof?" I suggest before you put anything into writing, you should proof-read it first for it will boomerang on you. Remember I jump into this thread because of my belief that "BOYCOTT" is not good for America and all I've got is your "laugh" and history lesson. Stick to the issues without sarcasm, and I will put into the table my honest and unbiased 2 cents without any prejudice.

[J.Pluta]

Kumar, you still have not provided any proof of any statement you have made, you simply argue with mine. This is unacceptable behavior. Expect no further responses. Joe

[R.Daugherty]

We had 800+ IT staff in a $24B wholesaling operation, and 400+ IT staff in a $10B retail operation, so I agree Joe the IT staffing is not out of line at all. A few days after I read this thread I got around to reading the ComputerWorld article and saw that the CIO resigned along with the outsourcing announcement. Now he could just be unhappy, but in my opinion outsourcing is primarily driven by deep dissatisfaction with IT, and I think they unloaded the operation as a turkey. I have no idea what kind of IT operation it was (mainframe, Unix, etc.) Of course when they unload to a big consulting firm the big consulting firms are shipping work overseas, but that only reflects in the pricing they bid against others for the contract, who probably all were counting on having work done as cheaply as possible. Bottom line, I doubt Best Buy has a clue who is actually doing the work. We have seen this outsourcing bringing it back inhouse dance for decades, either way the argument made to save costs. This time though it's not American IT staff inhouse or working for a consultant, so the outsourcers may finally be able to be cheaper than inhouse using overseas staff, I don't know. It's hard to ever picture EDS, Anderson, or IBM as cost effective even using free labor. rd

[ACT]

Joe, Dave400 posted the site INFOWEEK and COMPUTERWORLD earlier on this thread not me, I simply read the links. The article only confirm what is written by the WS Journal. It was dated April 5. The ff. statements is only a portion of ONE of these articles. "The Wall Street Journal recently reported that an internal Best Buy memo indicated that Accenture Ltd. is preparing to assume management of some of the company's IT services and telephone call centers by June 1. The memo stated that Best Buy anticipates that a significant percentage of IT associates will be offered positions with Accenture, according to the Journal" You can go to the sites and confirm it, I'm sure everyone on this thread have visited these sites already. In fact others made some comments already regarding the article.

[J.Pluta]

Kumar, once again I suspect language as the problem here. The WSJ memo was most certainly not dated April 5th. I suggest you read the following link to get the timing correct: Joe Pluta 4/8/04 7:48pm (http://www.mcpressonline.com/mc?14@175.koVMfHb6dae.1@.6aea2e89/77!SearchMark=76#76) In it, I lay out the timeline of the situation. On March 19th, a memo was leaked. As late as March 27th, Best Buy was denying it. Finally, on March 31st, they admitted they were outsourcing, although there has still been no word as to who is gettnig the contract. The memo indicates Accenture, but nobody knows for sure. You and Dave400 have insisted that the jobs are staying in the country, but you have no proof of that. Accenture and EDS both use plenty of offshore workers, so there is no guarantee that if either of them gets the contract that it will mean work for American workers. Best Buy also works with Tata and especially Wipro, either one of which could get that particular work. Until you can prove that work is going to Americans, it is just as likely to go offshore. Finally, my position is actually not contingent upon where the jobs go. I see nothing to indicate that any company being considered for the outsourcing contract will pick up those workers. If they do get offshored, that's another issue that I will be certain to make remarks about. But to me the fundamental problem is that Best Buy is getting rid of workers just to gain a few cents of earnings per share, and that is a bad precedent. You and Dave400 don't address the fact that some 900 people in Minneapolis will be without a job (in fact, Dave400 seems to think it's a good thing). I'd be interested to see exactly how much money they're saving by putting people out of work in a tough economy. Joe

[dmjae2004@yahoo.com]

You and Dave400 have insisted that the jobs are staying in the country, but you have no proof of that. Joe, I am not insisting the jobs are staying in the country. I am just not leaping to a conclusion they are leaving the country. I see nothing to indicate that any company being considered for the outsourcing contract will pick up those workers. The way I read the linked articles there was a suggestion that a number of the people would be transfered to the outsourcer. But to me the fundamental problem is that Best Buy is getting rid of workers just to gain a few cents of earnings per share, and that is a bad precedent. You and Dave400 don't address the fact that some 900 people in Minneapolis will be without a job (in fact, Dave400 seems to think it's a good thing). What about Best Buy is a precedent ?? Companies are always looking at ways to cut costs, and sometimes that involves a reduction in staff numbers. As Chuck points out the Companies have a responsibility to share holders.

[J.Pluta]

"What about Best Buy is a precedent ?? Companies are always looking at ways to cut costs, and sometimes that involves a reduction in staff numbers. As Chuck points out the Companies have a responsibility to share holders." And maybe this needs to be moderated. Maybe companies need to be held accountable to more than the bottom line. For example, how much money is this REALLY going to save? In what way? How much of these savings will actually get to the shareholders as opposed to executive bonuses? How much will this really mean in terms of earnings per share? Is that worth the social cost of putting 900 people out of work? Is anybody checking to see that these jobs are staying in the country? If not, why not? Back in the days before multinational conglomerates, there was at least some incentive to be loyal to your community, because if you weren't, your customer base voted with their wallets. These days, companies are only beholden to the 90-day stock price, and if we don't do something about that, we're all going to be out of jobs. Every glibly says "responsibility to shareholders", but that includes making sure there are still customers for all those high-priced consumer goods, as well as continuing to build community goodwill. Joe

[Guest.Visitor]

I just heard an awesome commercial on the radio by Good Year tires. They explained how Bridgestone, their competition, is replacing American workers by outsourcing jobs overseas, and if you want to support America, buy Good Year. I wonder how the Bridgestone board will react? Bring jobs back to America? Or take their chances for a year and hope the earnings are not impacted? I'll definitely choose Good Year over Bridgestone now... Chris

[R.Daugherty]

Definitely awesome, Chris. More or less like you and Joe are saying, we have to make a difference with our purchases, at least for those who have a job and have something to purchase with. rd

[dmjae2004@yahoo.com]

I wonder how the Bridgestone board will react? Bring jobs back to America? Or take their chances for a year and hope the earnings are not impacted? I'll definitely choose Good Year over Bridgestone now... Chris, Sorry I would prioritize tire safety and reliability ahead of a company's offshoring policy. Only if they both offer comparable performaning products at comparable prices would the offshoring policy be a consideration. Also Good Year Tires are listed on the Lou Dobbs Exporting USA Jobs and two weeks ago entered large outsourcing agreement with IBM in Europe. http://www.consultant-news.com/Article_Display.asp?ID=1412

[ACT]

Joe, I cut and paste the ff. for your satisfaction, the problem is not language barrier but I think your vision. Take note of the DATE please...It's very clear APRIL 5, 2004. I'm just re-stating the facts coming from this site. And as I have said before, I'm against OUTSOURCING and BOYCOTT, and I am a strong believer in a free wheeling market driven economy. --------------------------------------------------------------------- News Story by Carol Sliwa APRIL 05, 2004 (COMPUTERWORLD) - Best Buy Co. may join the collection of retailers that are opting to outsource a significant portion of their IT operations to major technology services companies.

[J.Pluta]

Kumar, you're just not getting it. The article you quote is quoting OLD NEWS. I'm not sure which words you don't understand. The very next paragraph said: "The Richfield, Minn.-based retail chain last week confirmed that it has been investigating outsourcing options for the company's IT and call center operations." LAST WEEK. Did you not catch that part? Oh forget it. I'm no longer even going to try. Joe

[R.Daugherty]

That's a good point, dave400, if Goodyear is listed on Lou Dobbs Exporting USA Jobs. The outsourcing of Goodyear Europe to IBM in Europe couldn't be the basis of it though. I wonder if Goodyear US has outsourced IT jobs? Their ad I would imagine is oriented to tire manufacturing being performed in the US, but it would be interesting to know if they have outsourced IT. There has always been the argument that IT is not a company's purpose in being, but real IT is a tool to make the company what it is. Companies that outsource don't get that. rd

[dchristie]

Here is a quote which I believe sums up the attitude of senior IT management towards staff. It's from a major North American company who is outsourcing: modified to protect company name ------------------------------- "We found that some people cannot retool, and they realize that. The challenge is that company-name is no longer a cradle to grave environment. Job security is no longer a guarantee. We see two different dichotomies. We are seeing people who are panicking and saying that this is not fair. Our Vice President used to say, company-name first, removed-text next and then contractors. That has now gone away. Some employees are embracing the changes and are happy to move out of, for example, the Assembler world and into something new. Others are scared to death because they know they cannot be retrained or they have been here for 20 years and done nothing but their current job. There will be casualties, no doubt. We have not seen it yet, but there will be some casualties as a result. There are anxieties, but it is pushing some to realize that they have to step up their performance and not sit around waiting for retirement." ------------------------------- I believe it's a good quote, maybe time for us to wake up and look for another direction in our career. I will not reveal the company name, our company is a member of this management group and emails are sent to me on a regular basis and are not meant to be public. The 'funny' thing about this email, was that it contained 3 case studies on companies doing outsource (all successes, one saved 10mil in 6 months) and the final topic was 'IT in a Recovering Economy - Meeting Summary'!!! Thanks Dave

[R.Daugherty]

This quote raise many questions, David. It's difficult for me to envision computer programmers and network admins and project managers as sitting around waiting for retirement. The vision is more like a hamster on a wheel. I contest the usual industry chatter about "procedural" programmers not being able to adapt to "event driven" programming as we saw in one quote in this thread or any of the terminology used to describe object oriented programming, but the point is moot when RPG and Cobol programming jobs are being shipped overseas. And they are. Adapt or die, the free traders mantra goes. The only retooling going on is setting up to live in a cardboard box instead of a house. That is competitive to the third world. We should be so proud. rd

[B_Sing]

<blockquote><tt>I contest the usual industry chatter about "procedural" programmers not being able to adapt to "event driven" programming as we saw in one quote in this thread or any of the terminology used to describe object oriented programming, but the point is moot when RPG and Cobol programming jobs are being shipped overseas. And they are. </tt></blockquote> The point isn't learning some new aspect of the same job, it's about retooling yourself to do something different, if necessary. It may or may not be necessary - that's up to the individual to decide, based on circumstances. <blockquote><tt>The only retooling going on is setting up to live in a cardboard box instead of a house. </tt></blockquote> If that's a person's choice, then so be it. But it doesn't have to be. Brian

[Guest.Visitor]

Dave, You make a good point, Goodyear is listed as exporting American jobs at cnn.com. I emailed Goodyear investor relations asking for an explanation. If I get a response, I'll post it here. Since Goodyear and Bridgestone are both giants in the tire industry, I'd say safety and reliabilty are both high. Actually, I avoided buying Bridgestone/Firestone tires a few years ago when they had the problem with tires peeling off cars while in motion. I'll listen to the radio commerical more closely next time I hear it. Chris

[Guest.Visitor]

Chris Ringer wrote: > I just heard an awesome commercial on the radio by Good Year tires. > They explained how Bridgestone, their competition, is replacing > American workers by outsourcing jobs overseas, and if you want to > support America, buy Good Year. That's an interesting way of looking at things, seeing as how Bridgestone is a Japanese company. Bill

[R.Daugherty]

Brian, you misunderstand my post, but there's a first for everything. :) I am saying I reject the incessant industry wisdom that many "procedural" programmers are unable to become "object oriented" or "event driven" programmers, used as an excuse to outsource IT shops overseas to people who were apparently never procedural programmers and so can grasp the intracacies of object oriented programming, if we are to believe this line of reasoning. Those sentiments are not expressed here, of course, but when I read that an IT staff is being eliminated because they can't retool, that is the excuse being made to send the jobs overseas for dirt cheap labor. As for not having to live in a cardboard box, what kind of housing were you envisioning for the hundreds of thousands, millions counting those who changed to something with a paycheck, of IT career people who haven't found a job in the last two years? Hopefully things are improving, but temp jobs don't buy much more than a cardboard box. The sentiment that the only thing standing between an unemployed programmer and another job in IT is retooling is belied by the across the board unemployment in all disciplines, unless something happened that you know of and you haven't told me yet. :) And in saying that, I want to add that that in no way endorses the concept that there ever was anything superior to Java over RPG for business programming. Quite the contrary. In my opinion, they will never get back to where we had it for business, and that is part of the current problem. All that was needed was a visual interface for the AS/400 and IBM would have had the superior business solution, but they became converts in selling Websphere running anywhere instead of the AS/400 being a uniquely superior solution, so here we are. I rejected it then and now. rd

[B_Sing]

Hey Ralph, Got it. I hadn't read about retooling being used as an excuse, although I'm sure there are all kinds of things being used to dance around what is probably the real issue, which is money. Brian P.S. Welcome back, BTW. Glad to read from you again! ;-)

[Guest.Visitor]

Ralph said: "in my opinion outsourcing is primarily driven by deep dissatisfaction with IT...We have seen this outsourcing bringing it back inhouse dance for decades, either way the argument made to save costs. " From afar your assessment seems the most logical. The Best Buy case probably has nothing to do with saving costs but everything to do with politics. I suspect, like you, that Best Buy is outsourcing IT because it became a fiefdom that had way too much power and autonomy within the organization and this is the best way they could tame the beast. The resignation of their CIO is a telltale sign. We must remember that Best Buy's core business is retailing, not IT. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[Guest.Visitor]

Joe said: "there was at least some incentive to be loyal to your community, because if you weren't, your customer base voted with their wallets...as well as continuing to build community goodwill." While I agree with your sentiments there really is no incentive to "do the right thing" for most companies. Often doing what's right for the community is totally opposite to doing what's right for the employees or the company. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[Guest.Visitor]

Chris, I doubt this campaign will have a big impact. Most people don't like to support competitive slamming campaigns. And, it will certainly have no effect on those who buy foreign tires such as Michelin or Yokohama. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Chris Ringer" <Chris_Ringer@mcpressonline.com> wrote in message news:6aea2e89.95@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > I just heard an awesome commercial on the radio by Good Year tires. They explained how Bridgestone, their competition, is replacing American workers by outsourcing jobs overseas, and if you want to support America, buy Good Year. > > I wonder how the Bridgestone board will react? Bring jobs back to America? Or take their chances for a year and hope the earnings are not impacted? I'll definitely choose Good Year over Bridgestone now... > > Chris

[Guest.Visitor]

Chris said: "Also Good Year Tires are listed on the Lou Dobbs Exporting USA Jobs" Good, I'm glad to see we've got a McCarthy-like blacklist going. ;-)

[dmjae2004@yahoo.com]

The Best Buy case probably has nothing to do with saving costs but everything to do with politics. I suspect, like you, that Best Buy is outsourcing IT because it became a fiefdom that had way too much power and autonomy within the organization and this is the best way they could tame the beast. Chuck, What do you know about Best Buy IT that you are not telling us ? I have seen nothing in their previous presentations/articles/press releases that would support these allegations. Where as if you look at their financial performance better management of their costs has to be big concern. The resignation of their CIO is a telltale sign. Really ??? To me reading the CIO has been outsourcing IT services since 2000 suggests he is pro-outsourcing. You may also want to read this press release http://quickstart.clari.net/qs_se/webnews/wed/aj/Bmn-best-buy.RRDw_DSM.html when Best Buy announced their Global Sourcing Office in China (nothing to do with outsourcing, but shows the global thinking the CIO was applying across the business. We must remember that Best Buy's core business is retailing, not IT. Yes, and to most retailers IT is just an additional cost of doing business.

[dmjae2004@yahoo.com]

They plan to put nearly 1000 American IT workers out of work, in all likelihood shipping their jobs to India. You and Dave400 don't address the fact that some 900 people in Minneapolis will be without a job It turns out there are 130 jobs lost as part of the outsourcing, and it was done with Accenture who are taking on the other 650 IT staff, leaving 40 people in Best Buy IT. Employees being terminated will be kept on the company's payroll through about mid-June, then receive severance packages. Best Buy IT Outsourced (http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/business/8432801.htm?template=contentModules/printstory.jsp&1c) Does this outcome alter people's actions on how they will, or will not, shop at Best Buy ?

[J.Pluta]

Best Buy announced a great quarter. They're leaps and bounds above last year, recording what they call a "banner year" with income rising 29%. This is thanks in no small part to the American consumer. The result? http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2004/03/31_horwichj_bbuyresults/ They plan to put nearly 1000 American IT workers out of work, in all likelihood shipping their jobs to India. As you can see, this is not about a corporation "struggling to survive" or anything like it. It is about greedy corporate owners squeezing every last penny of profit possible at the expense of American workers. I love Best Buy. I like just wandering through the aisles. But it looks like I may have to vote with my wallet and find another source for electronics and videos. How can I continue to support a company that lays off my coworkers for no reason other than greed? Joe P.S. I plan to write to Best Buy. I'm going to mention this in an upcoming MCMagOnline column as well. If you'd like to comment privately, feel free to drop me a line.

[J.Pluta]

Thanks, Dave, for this update. If (and that's still a big "if") this is actually how the outsourcing works, then I'm willing to change my stance somewhat. I have two issues: 1. Best Buy lied about this from the get-go, so I have no reason to believe this is really what will happen. I'll be interested to see how many of these staffers actually receive "comparable offers", and what "comparable" means. Comparable is not "you get 60% of your orgiinal salary and have to work 50 billable hours a week with 50% travel". 2. 130 people is still 130 people. The company is growing and doing great things, and they're still putting 130 people on the street. That's a lot of people. The severance mitigates the issue somewhat, but it's still a lot of people without jobs thanks to Best Buy. I think my personal decision will rest upon whether or not those 650 people really get jobs, or whether they're just going to be offered gofer positions, or are temporary workers poised to be cut as soon as all this blows over. No matter what though, it's clear that companies are finally starting to realize that wholesale layoffs are no longer acceptable. Sears is looking to do the same thing, outsourcing a portion of its work, but with the understanding that most of the affected staff will be picked up by the outsourcer. It's clear to me the vocal anti-outsourcing community is having an effect - I don't think either Best Buy or Sears would have worried about their displaced workers a year ago. Joe