Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

[J.Wells]

Theodor Geisel would be proud.

[Guest.Visitor]

Great article, Joe! I know there are still some people out there with their heads in the sand: Hey you! Joe's not spouting off with a hyperbolic rant, this is the real deal. Do you think you're protected in your little corner of the professional world? The first sound you hear is that giant sucking sound of jobs being exported to India, Russia, etc. That second sound you hear are all those displaced American workers marching to your company's employment office, vying for your job, and offering to do it for 10-20k per year less.

[Guest.Visitor]

Joe, Be careful. You're going to be called racist, or worse. I have been for voicing those same facts. I wrote my member of Congress about this a few months ago. I got a form letter stating that jobs protection is anti-American, anti-Democracy, anti-Capitalism, and downright racist. The letter stated the usual "global economy" stuff. I see the future of U.S. IT, and it's not good. I'm in the process of changing careers. I have enough woking years left to do this. My position is to not let anyone into America who doesn't want to be a citizen and to not do business with any company who you know sends jobs out of the country. It's not easy to do and I haven't been very good at it. But, when I find out a company is sending work offshore, I wean myself from them. I'm not sure people will be willing to do it, though. In the '70's when Ford, GM, and Chrysler were under fire from Toyota, Mazda, and Datsun, unions were trying to get Americans to buy Fords, GMs, and Chryslers. The government even gave Chrylser a loan to help it compete with the Japanese. But, as we know, no one heeded that warning and people bought the Japanese cars. That may have been the start of "globalization". My nickels worth.

[J.Pluta]

Remember, there are two issues here: outsourcing and visas. Outsourcing is in fact part of the global economy, and one I'm not afraid of. You just can't run a project of any sort of magnitude with workers halfway around the world. No, it's the visas that are far more insidious. It's as if you learned a trade, and then the boss came and said, "Hey, Ted here is your replacement. He doesn't have your trainnig or your expertise, but he's cheaper. So I want you to train him and then we'll fire you." Which part of this makes sense? Joe

[J.Pluta]

Somebody brought up an interesting point: American workers often have a tough time getting their employers to let them telecommute, but those same employers have no problem shipping work to someone on another continent. Joe

[Guest.Visitor]

Dbalecmt, I think you hit the nail on the head when you said, "offering to do it for 10-20k per year less." This is something I've been saying for 10 years now. The American worker, and specifically the AS/400 programmer, has priced themselves out of the marketplace. They've grown accustomed to having the Motorhome, the ATVs and the 2 SUVs in the three car garage and just can't believe that someone would work for less and do without those luxuries. I believe that we, as Americans, have been beaten at our own game, capitalism, and are simply poor losers. The only sure way to stay employed, and thus competitive, is to treat your career as if it were a business and not an entitlement. How to do that? Only three ways that I can think of. 1. Cut your costs, just as any business would do. Eliminate the frills and extra expenses in your life such as the weekends traveling. 2. Be better than the competition. Know more skills, work harder, and make yourself a compelling employee. 3. Have your wife's father hire you. ;-) I just posted an opening for an Senior RPG programmer, here and on Monster and in the L.A. Times, and almost all of the best qualified candidates have names I can't pronounce. But you know what? That doesn't matter because I'm looking for the best candidate to fill the position. It's a damn competitive world, it's time to compete! chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "dbalecmt" <dbalecmt@mcpressonline.com> wrote in message news:6ae8818f.0@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > Great article, Joe! I know there are still some people out there with their heads in the sand: Hey you! Joe's not spouting off with a hyperbolic rant, this is the real deal. Do you think you're protected in your little corner of the professional world? The first sound you hear is that giant sucking sound of jobs being exported to India, Russia, etc. That second sound you hear are all those displaced American workers marching to your company's employment office, vying for your job, and offering to do it for 10-20k per year less.

[Guest.Visitor]

Do you think Wall Street is the driver of this demolition derby. I can't say that I understand how stocks are valued, but I can say that I have seen corporations do things that couldn't possibly make for a better company. How many of these CEO's make decisions to affect their stock at 1PM instead of 5 years from now, and then they have the nerve to ask at an interview what do you hope to accomplish here in 5 years and then they send the job offshore anyway(and it is not just an Asian thing, some of it locally has gone to South America)(And some of the visa issues are Latin American also). Anyway to make my point: how does outsourcing a major project(saving the corp money today, driving its stock up), benefit the corp two years from now when the project is overdue, and either hopelessly bungled or severely crippled in function, now driving the stock down, and as a plus the corp is behind the competion, the CEO is fired or worse in court. Am I missing something or imagining something that isn't there or is Wall Street destroying our commerce in the long run. Anyway, can't say I understand, but often don't like what I see.

[J.Pluta]

Email posts are coming in, and I'm starting to get the occasional story. Please note that these stories are entirely anecdotal and by definition unverified, you'll have to judge their veracity on your own. Here's the first: A large insurance company in the Northeast has what amounts to an entire floor of L-1 visa workers. Are these folks all here because they hold specific expertise that the company couldn't find among American workers (that's the criteria for an L-1 visa)? Any other stories? Joe

[David Abramowitz]

Be careful when communicating to congress! I have found that the selection of the words used often makes the difference between being heard, and being ignored. For example, when discussing visas, it is far better to stress the abuse of the program, and possible illegalities, than to center on job protection. Doing an end run on outsourcing is also effective. You can discuss data security, or loss of domestic technicians. Employment should also be brought up, but make it germaine to revenue and the tax base. Naturally discussions with those of different political persuasions should be tailored to the target audience. I any case, It has not been my experience that a single bullet point makes an effective tactic. BTW, Great article Joe, and welcome on board the bandwagon, Dave

[J.Pluta]

...that this is more than just a bandwagon. This is not a simple issue, and it needs more than just an election-year pat on the head. I think of bandwagons as something that come and go at a whim, while this issue is one that needs to be addressed with a long-term solution. Joe

[jgolds2]

First off, great article and solid research but I'll disagree with you on outsourcing being ultimately unworkable. The foreign workers assigned are not slouches and with the Internet available as their personal tutor they can make up for inexperience awful fast. I grew up in this business trying to dicipher IBM manuals, which could have been written is Sanskrit for all they were worth. Nowdays, a Google search or a posting will deliver a precise answer in minutes and as you point out many if not most of these postings are from foreign workers. I am familiar with several of these outsourcing projects and they start off with issues but they are quickly worked out. Bottom line, we as a country are shipping one more of our industries overseas without even a whimper and that this "Jobless Recovery" as it's called does not seem to bother the media or the goverment. The Democrats are no better than the Republicans because they started this ball rolling with no controls or checks built in.

[J.Pluta]

My point is this - there is a limited pool of competent talent. Computer programming may not be rocket science, but it isn't flipping burgers, either. And it's getting more complex rather than less as time goes on. At the same time, the number of consulting firms, especially the offshore firms, is rising, exponentially it seems. So what happens is that you get a diluted product. I hate to make analogies that might seem frivolous, but look at professional sports. Now that we have twice as many teams, you can make the argument that the talent, especially near the bottom of the league, is probably overpaid. The same thing happens in consulting. American consulting firms did it in the 90's - they were charging outrageous sums for junior programmers and then bidding on jobs they couldn't hope to finish. But that was how they kept the money wheel rolling. Those companies quickly folded with the dot-com burst. It's my contention that the same HAS ALREADY HAPPENED with many of the offshore firms, and that they are bidding on jobs they don't have the talent to complete. The questions we're seeing on the mailing lists are testament to that very fact. And what are companies going to do when these offshore firms start to fold? Where do you seek reparations? And so I ask again - are there any examples of large-scale projects that have been outsourced that have worked? I'd be interested to see if any have completed recently, and if so, if they were on time and on budget. My guess based on the anecdotal evidence and the things I see in the mailing lists is that the majority are not. Joe

[David Abramowitz]

The bottom line, is the bottom line, and according to a Gartner article just released this past week, outsourcing does not enhance the bottom line in most cases. This may or may not have anything to do with slouching. According to Gartner it is more of a management and analytical problem. A great deal of investment has to be made on the home front in order to get outsourcing to work, otherwise as IBM likes to say: Results are unpredictable. The sales pitch is that outsourcing saves you money, but more often than not, caveat emptor applies. This does not change the fact that jobs are lost. Firms losing money due to outsourcing efforts rarely give up those efforts, because the tasks have become internally politicized. No one will admit that their decision was wrong, and the outsourcing effort just keeps rolling along like a tumbleweed. BTW as of last week, the new President of my client's company has decided to award an outsourcing contract. This surprised everyone. I have been ordered to cooperate with the outsourcers (These are domestic outsourcers), and I have also been ordered not to write any CYA memos. It gets a lot worse, but I don't intend to burden anyone with a long story. The short and quick of it is I am now looking to end my association with this firm. Dave

[IHFA]

I enjoyed your article very much. I belong to one of the faxing groups you mentioned. My favorite topic are immigration and Jobs lost to visas. I fax my federal level representatives weekly letting them know that I am disappointed when they vote to increase visa limits and thanking them when they take care of the home folks. I have been programming for over 20 years, and I am not encouraging any of my kids to go into the field. Programming can be shipped overseas. Instead, I am pointing them towards hardware/networking because hands on is required.

[J.Pluta]

"A great deal of investment has to be made on the home front in order to get outsourcing to work" Which is why visa abuse is so much more insidious. The investment has already been made, you're simply replacing one salary with a lower one. And unless management has some sense of loyalty to the American workers being displaced, then they're probably not going to think twice about this. The bottom line is, after all, the bottom line. Joe

[David Abramowitz]

Joe Pluta wrote: And unless management has some sense of loyalty to the American workers. . . . You have an interesting sense of humor Joe. Dave

[dchristie]

You win some: Near-shore outsourcing strategy to create 175 Canadian jobs (http://www.itbusiness.ca/index.asp?theaction=61&lid=1&sid=54074&adBanner=Infrastructure). And you lose some Sun Life CIO: Keep an eye on offshore (http://www.itbusiness.ca/index.asp?theaction=61&lid=1&sid=53951&adBanner=Infrastructure). It is safe to say however, that what succeeds in the US will become a top business priority in Canada.

[jdyer@imcedi.com]

One of the sad effects of this whole business is that by shipping tech jobs overseas, American enterprises are training and funding economic and, in some cases, geopolitical and military competitors. This doesn't seem very smart to me. Isn't technical leadership a trump card in the balance of power game?

[dacust]

I agree with most of what's been said above. Especially the security concerns. I hate to think of my SS# and CC#s being in the hands of a clerk in another country where it might be next to impossible for me to file a lawsuit. And most of you seem to agree that total protectionism is not a good idea, but the idea of protecting our jobs still creeps into our arguments. Protecting local jobs has it's place, but it is no longer a US economy. It's a world economy. If we can't produce a product at a reasonable price, then we need to find another business to get in. Japan, decades ago, said that manufacturing was a temporary solution for them. They recognized that eventually new upcoming nations would produce a product similar in quality at a lower price and run them out of business. They then said they needed to be in the business of information. Not sure how successful they are being at this at the moment, but it's a valid point. If we prop up a particular industry that has offshore competition, have we really helped ourselves in the long run? Shouldn't we work towards providing products/services that we excel in so the world will buy from us because it's the best value? However, we cannot keep every industry here forever. If we are reasonable with our demands to our government (as David Abramowitz suggests in his first post above) we can accomplish much more in the long run. It's up to each of us to position ourselves in an industry where we think it is providing a needed service to the world. If we simply keep all our industries here, we won't be exporting, we won't have an income, the country goes broke. Remember, I am NOT trying to negate the concerns about data security and quality of product from sending data processing offshore. I just want to make sure that when I complain about jobs leaving the US, that I have valid reasons for thinking they should stay.

[Guest.Visitor]

Joe, Do you have examples of that? chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Joe Pluta" <Joe_Pluta@mcpressonline.com> wrote in message news:6ae8818f.3@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > Somebody brought up an interesting point: American workers often have a tough time getting their employers to let them telecommute, but those same employers have no problem shipping work to someone on another continent. > > Joe

[J.Pluta]

That's fine if I'm competing against another American, Chuck. Not if I have to compete against the entire world's standard of living, which is what the visas in particular do. Joe

[Guest.Visitor]

Joe, I'm sorry, but in a global economy it doesn't work that way. Protecting a segment of American jobs will only cause other countries to counter attack with their own sanctions. We're seeing the repercussions today with our protection of the antiquated steel industry. Why can't I take your provincial logic one step further and say that because housing costs are so high in California we need to protect California's programmer jobs. No resident from another state should be allowed to compete for a programmer's position. After all, we gotta protect our entitlements, eh? I don't buy your protectionism argument. A house built on government sanctions or protection laws only creates an uncompetitive U.S. economy that will eventually collapse and drive more people out of work. In order for the U.S. to stay strong it MUST compete globally. Any provincial thinking only creates a nightmare for the next generation. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Joe Pluta" <Joe_Pluta@mcpressonline.com> wrote in message news:6ae8818f.18@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > That's fine if I'm competing against another American, Chuck. Not if I have to compete against the entire world's standard of living, which is what the visas in particular do. > > Joe

[J.Pluta]

I just got one in email. The person understandably isn't keen on making their name or that of their employer public, so I can't use it as an ironclad example. However, the issue of telecommuting has been a long sticking point in our industry. Joe

[Guest.Visitor]

Joe, Unfortunately, it's a sticking point for a lot of companies. Fortunately, my company isn't one of them. I have a full time programmer on my staff that lives 1,000 miles from the office. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Joe Pluta" <Joe_Pluta@mcpressonline.com> wrote in message news:6ae8818f.21@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > I just got one in email. The person understandably isn't keen on making their name or that of their employer public, so I can't use it as an ironclad example. However, the issue of telecommuting has been a long sticking point in our industry. > > Joe

[J.Pluta]

It's not protectionism. I'm not asking for tariffs, or subsidies. I'm asking the government to get out of the picture, and stop directly subsidizing the replacement of American jobs with foreign workers through the visa programs. Notice that my biggest complaint is visas, not outsourcing per se. It's my opinion that outsourcing is largely self-limiting, but that the visa programs, which are currently employing hundreds of thousands of foreign laborers at the expense of American jobs, are unfair because there are no downsides for corporations to replace an American with someone whose standard of living is so much lower than that of an American. The only way this can work is if Americans have the same standard of living as all other people on the planet. And if that's your goal, Chuck, then you're free to it. Joe

[J.Pluta]

I posted a link to this article on a Java site heavily trafficked by a global development community. The response from some folks was, as you might guess, somewhat less than cordial <smile>. But some of the comments surprised even me. One of my favorites is the comment that "Who Wipro puts on a project is NONE of the client's business." I've invited the posters there to come here and post their views, but I don't know if they will be inclined to do so. So, in the interest of fairness, I'm posting a link to their comments here: http://saloon.javaranch.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=37&t=002013&p= Feel free to hop over and take a look at opposing viewpoints. Chuck, you might be interested in what they have to say! Joe

[Guest.Visitor]

Chuck, Will you be hiring a qualified US citizen who applied for the job? I'll be shocked if you say "no", considering the plethora of unemployed IT people, especially in California. Surely there's one talented iSeries programmer in the LA area with American citizenship. Or will you be bringing someone in with a H-1B and L-1 visa? Just curious. Chris

[Guest.Visitor]

Joe, Ok, I see your argument. Now, I have to ask this question (because I don't know the answer): Do visa programs exist in other countries? In other words, are Americans working in Germany or the UK or Israel on similar visa programs? I would expect the answer to be yes. If the answer is yes, then if we cut our visa programs we should expect other countries to retaliate in kind. Is that fair? I don't know. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Joe Pluta" <Joe_Pluta@mcpressonline.com> wrote in message news:6ae8818f.23@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > It's not protectionism. I'm not asking for tariffs, or subsidies. I'm asking the government to get out of the picture, and stop directly subsidizing the replacement of American jobs with foreign workers through the visa programs. > > Notice that my biggest complaint is visas, not outsourcing per se. It's my opinion that outsourcing is largely self-limiting, but that the visa programs, which are currently employing hundreds of thousands of foreign laborers at the expense of American jobs, are unfair because there are no downsides for corporations to replace an American with someone whose standard of living is so much lower than that of an American. > > The only way this can work is if Americans have the same standard of living as all other people on the planet. And if that's your goal, Chuck, then you're free to it. > > Joe

[David Abramowitz]

Chuck Ackerman wrote: Protecting a segment of American jobs will only cause other countries to counter attack with their own sanctions. This is the reminiscent of conversations I have had with some politicos. Particularly when discussing the "L-1" visa situation. They are concerned that American comanies may not be able to bring American employees to work in foreign locations. I have succussfully countered this by pointing out that it is not the elimination of the L-1 visa that is the problem. It is the elimination of program abuse and out and out fraud that will be necessary to level the playing field. I have been able to make inroads by suggesting that the solution is to ensure that spirit of the L-1 program is maintained, and that may be done by allowing the L-1 holder to perform work only for the hiring company. This would prevent the wholesale contracting of L-1 holders to other companies that do not have to declare that they use L-1 workers, because the L-1 workers are employees of some other company. It's kind of wordy, but it works better with charts, graphs, and arrows. Dave

[David Abramowitz]

Chris, To add to your statement, I would point out that it is illegal to "hire" an H1-B holder, if there is as much as one (1) qualified US Citizen or Green Card holder available. This is not true for L-1 holders, but the L-1 holder must already be your firm's employee in another country. Dave

[GlenKerner]

I've read all these posts and it seems that this issue is getting more and more complicated. Let me see if I can bring it down to earth. I have been a programmer for 23 years. I have worked all over the country. In the past 10 years, I have been laid off from several positions due to downsizing. I always kept an eye on my old position to make sure I was recalled according to the law. What most of the companies did instead was outsourced the projects. To what companies I don't know but I do know that one of the biggest complaints of the people still at the company was getting the actual programmer to understand what needed to be done and what they were actually saying. We Americans have problems understanding each other so I would inquire as to where the programmer was. The answer was almost always in India. So I have been replaced several times by outsourcing to foreign companies (I say foreign because 90% of the work force do not reside in America). So I've had to ask myself: Have I been overpricing myself? The answer is no. I don't have all the frills (extra cars, large house, etc.) heck I can't even afford to go on vacation. I live paycheck to paycheck. That is what most Americans do. So the arguement that we are overpriced is inaccurate. The problem is simple, companies want to save money and boost profits. The market out there is not what it used to be so the revenues are not up. The only way to make a profit is to reduce costs. The one department that doesn't bring in revenue is IT. So companies look for less expensive labor. Reduce the cost (even if it takes longer for projects to be completed) increases profits. I am upset at being replaced by outsourcing but there really isn't anything we can do about it. It would be nice if American companies would keep there money in the American market place by hiring Americans or at least people residing in America, but they are looking at the bottom line and not where their money is going to. A perfect example is the clothing manufacturing industry. They needed cheap labor and to reduce overhead and improve profits. What happened? sweat shops in 3rd world countries. At least the IT outsourcing isn't violating child labor laws. Anyway, the simple problem is that the cost of living in America has reached a level that Corporate America cannot afford to pay us what we need to simply survive and still make a profit. So they searched elsewhere to find less expensive solutions. They found it in foreign programmers. Do we blame the government for this? I don't think so. Personally I blame the Corporate America who are the ones that created the high cost of living. Think about it, a man sits on an assembly line monitoring a computer that is welding the frame of a vehicle. This man is paid over 40K. Why? Because Corporate America agreed to pay him to do nothing (essentially). Because of that we now are paying what it used to cost for a house for a car now. Corporate America is doing what it has to bring in as much money to so it can go into their pockets ..... it is called capitalism. If we want to keep jobs in America then Corporate America (especially the board member and executives) stop demanding and getting the 100K + bonuses and other perks. Stop our government from using our hard earned money on trips and things they don't need. There was a time that all expenses for our representative came out of contribution and the individual own pockets. Now we pay them way too much money to do nothing but find ways to increase what they get paid. If we reduce both of these then prices will go down because volume of sales will go up because we will have more money. We spend more we then create the need for more jobs. And the cycle continues. I don't like being replaced by someone that doesn't even live in the same country but I don't think I should stop them from trying to earn a living too. There are a lot of IT jobs out there but there could be more for us if Corporate America would give us hard working people who just want to support our families a chance to do just that. Okay I didn't make it simple, I started venting a little because of my own experiences. Joe your article was great. It opened a can of worms that has needed to be openned for years now. If the executives would simply open their eyes and hear the cries of us to be employeed in positions that we can feel safe at not being replaced by the cheaper labor they will see a very high quality of work and see that in the long term we will save them more money.

[J.Pluta]

As David points out, you cannot by law hire a visa holder unless no qualified citizen or green card holder can be found. The world is not your talent pool, America is. Joe

[Guest.Visitor]

Chris, I will be hiring the best qualified candidate for the job. I use very little discrimination in any of the qualifications for the job. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Chris Ringer" <Chris_Ringer@mcpressonline.com> wrote in message news:6ae8818f.26@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > Chuck, > > Will you be hiring a qualified US citizen who applied for the job? I'll be shocked if you say "no", considering the plethora of unemployed IT people, especially in California. Surely there's one talented iSeries programmer in the LA area with American citizenship. Or will you be bringing someone in with a H-1B and L-1 visa? Just curious. > > Chris

[Guest.Visitor]

David, I agree with you that it is always good to fight fraud. As a retailer, we spend a fortune on loss prevention, i.e. fraud, and it would do the government well to spend money on fraud. Frankly, I'm more concerned about identity theft than losing my job to a company that is fraudulently hiring employees. Therefore, I'd rather see the government spend more money on stopping identity theft than hiring fraud. IMO, of course. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "David Abramowitz" <David_Abramowitz@mcpressonline.com> wrote in message news:6ae8818f.27@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > Chuck Ackerman wrote: Protecting a segment of American jobs will only cause other countries to counter attack with their own sanctions. > > This is the reminiscent of conversations I have had with some politicos. Particularly when discussing the "L-1" visa situation. They are concerned that American comanies may not be able to bring American employees to work in foreign locations. > > I have succussfully countered this by pointing out that it is not the elimination of the L-1 visa that is the problem. It is the elimination of program abuse and out and out fraud that will be necessary to level the playing field. I have been able to make inroads by suggesting that the solution is to ensure that spirit of the L-1 program is maintained, and that may be done by allowing the L-1 holder to perform work only for the hiring company. This would prevent the wholesale contracting of L-1 holders to other companies that do not have to declare that they use L-1 workers, because the L-1 workers are employees of some other company. > > It's kind of wordy, but it works better with charts, graphs, and arrows. > > Dave

[Guest.Visitor]

Glen said: "Personally I blame the Corporate America who are the ones that created the high cost of living. Think about it, a man sits on an assembly line monitoring a computer that is welding the frame of a vehicle. This man is paid over 40K. Why? Because Corporate America agreed to pay him to do nothing (essentially). Because of that we now are paying what it used to cost for a house for a car now." However, it's entirely possible that Glen pointed to Corporate America when maybe, just maybe, he should have pointed to organized labor. Here in Southern California we have grocery workers on strike. Imagine, if you will, that these are people who earn in the neighborhood of $20 per hour and get ALL medical benefits, including dependent coverage, FOR FREE. What do they do? They scan barcodes all day long. (Yes, I know, they have to memorize the SKU number for bananas so one might argue that there is some skill in the job.) Yet they go on strike. Why? Because organized labor has convinced them that when the grocery store says that medical costs are too high and the employee should kick in $20/month for their fair share they are being cheated. (It really irks me since I pay about $800/ month for the same insurance but never once thought of complaining. I know that if I don't like it I can move on.) So, it's not just corporate America, it's often organized labor that has convinced minimum wage earners that they are entitled to two SUVs and 3 ATVs. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[Guest.Visitor]

Joe, Actually, my pool is relatively limited. My loss prevention department will do a background check on each possible new hire. Many don't pass the check. The background check includes legality of employment among many other things. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Joe Pluta" <Joe_Pluta@mcpressonline.com> wrote in message news:6ae8818f.32@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > As David points out, you cannot by law hire a visa holder unless no qualified citizen or green card holder can be found. The world is not your talent pool, America is. > > Joe

[J.Pluta]

The prevailing wisdom of the posts on JavaRanch are that all consulting companies hire newbies, that newbies work on projects and are not billed, they are "Shadow Resources" that never show up in billing and in general are overseen by experienced individuals. The idea is that if you hire an outsourcing company, you know that in advance, and that's why you pay less. And if the project fails, you knew the risks. That is just a risk of outsourcing, and why it is cheaper. "In fact, I will say even if [a newbie] is the only person working on the client's project, thats none of the client's business. At the end of the day, if the job is not done, market forces will determine who survives and who does not. THIS IS A RISK OF OUTSOURCING. Companies that outsource, take into account such risks." (emphasis not added) The people over there don't want to come here and post, so I encourage you to instead go over there and read the discussion (better known as Joe against the World <grin>). The only person from here who posted there was Dan, who basically commented that I was defending my position too vigorously. Joe

[David Abramowitz]

Chuck Ackerman asked: Do visa programs exist in other countries? Yes, but (TTBOMK) they are far more restrictive, far more selective, and are usually (but not always - see oil rig workers) reserved for executive workers. As a poor example, I had a Canadian company for a client, and almost all of my work was done at a US office. I would go to the Toronto office about once a month for a day or two, but that would be it. On more than one occasion I was stopped at customs, and questioned for a bit, but then allowed to pass. I did not require a visa because the stay was never longer than a business week. As a better example, listen to stories of those that work abroad on a regular basis. Dave

[Guest.Visitor]

ctibodoe wrote: > Anyway > to make my point: how does outsourcing a major project(saving the > corp money today, driving its stock up), benefit the corp two years > from now when the project is overdue, and either hopelessly bungled > or severely crippled in function, now driving the stock down, and as > a plus the corp is behind the competion, the CEO is fired or worse in > court. Am I missing something or imagining something that isn't there > or is Wall Street destroying our commerce in the long run. Anyway, > can't say I understand, but often don't like what I see. The faults in your argument are that outsourcing a major project will fail and/or that not-outsourcing a major project will succeed. Bill

[Guest.Visitor]

Joe, If you're looking for examples, you may want to more specifically define what you are looking for. For instance: many companies successfully outsource their Payroll processing to companies such as ADP. I'm sure Perot Systems has successfully outsourced projects since that's their whole reason for being. If you are really asking for outsourcing offshore, then that's different. A quick google of the phrase "outsource project success" brought this first example: http://www.outsourcing-russia.com/success/?company=023&story=0002 Bill

[Guest.Visitor]

I was just venting with more emotions than facts. I can attest to major projects failing that are 100% home grown. I seem to be out of the ballpark anyway. I do know (fact) a new VP of the Western Hemisphere that came from an AS/400 background, replaced multi AS/400's and all the American staff, with another platform and a horde of programmers in a South American country, because "the AS/400 may be better, but it doesn't make the corp. look modern ($) to potential buyers and the price of programmers down there is real cheap. " So, from the horse's mouth, the decision was made based on the percieved value of the corp., not the value of the corp. or is it the same thing. But, in the end, the corp. just let the VP go for a younger sexier model, and it seems to me ( not sure if fact ) that the VP was probably brought in to make sure the transition of the AS/400's out of the door would go smoothly. Anyway, I don't claim to be an expert or know anything in particular, I just have alot of questions.

[Guest.Visitor]

Chuck Ackerman wrote: > Here in Southern California we have grocery workers on strike. > Imagine, if you will, that these are people who earn in the > neighborhood of $20 per hour and get ALL medical benefits, including > dependent coverage, FOR FREE. What do they do? They scan barcodes > all day long. (Yes, I know, they have to memorize the SKU number for > bananas so one might argue that there is some skill in the job.) Yet > they go on strike. Why? Because organized labor has convinced them > that when the grocery store says that medical costs are too high and > the employee should kick in $20/month for their fair share they are > being cheated. (It really irks me since I pay about $800/ month for > the same insurance but never once thought of complaining. I know > that if I don't like it I can move on.) > > So, it's not just corporate America, it's often organized labor that > has convinced minimum wage earners that they are entitled to two SUVs > and 3 ATVs. Geez Chuck, you sure have a simplistic outlook on other workers. $20 an hour is the top of the ladder, new hires are about $8. The workers gave up some wage concessions in order to have all their med paid, so why not offer your employer a reduced wage demand if they'll agree to pay all of your medical costs? Oh and that $20 a month is for a single employee and the absolute bottom option in coverage with it's requisite high deductibles and larger co-pays and limited Physician participation - is that what you have Chuck? Bill

[dacust]

Joe, I must say that your last post here seems to objectively state the people's opinions from the other forum, maybe better than your first one. Maybe I judged you too harshly. I'll still have to somewhat stand behind my statements, however. I definitely agree with most of what you have said. I just feel that you discounted other's views a little too blithely. Not that you didn't listen or try to be fair. You did. I just felt you were passionate about what you felt and it caused you to overlook some of the points other's were making. Please note, overall I think you are objective, well spoken and listen well. (I also agree with most of what you say, but that's not the point) BUT, since my response was originally made in the other forum, I think I'll leave any other comments for over there. -dan "My programs don't have bugs, they just develop random features."

[Guest.Visitor]

Check this one out: http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/biztech/11/24/dell.call.centers.ap/index.html AUSTIN, Texas (AP) -- After an onslaught of complaints, computer maker Dell Inc. has stopped using a technical support center in India to handle calls from its corporate customers.

[J.Pluta]

Actually, Bill, I'm trying to stay on point here - I'm looking for the successful outsourcing of either: 1. An internal data processing department responsible for the day to day maintenance of a live ERP-level application suite, like any of the 1000's of iSeries sites worldwide. 2. An entire iSeries business application development project of mid- to high-level complexity, with several hundred screens, reports, and online transaction processing programs. I'd like to know how these projects fared as opposed to using American workers. I'd also like to know if they hit their target dates, were on budget and had acceptable error rates. Specifically on the development project, I'd like to know how long such a project has been in production, and how flexible and easy to change it is. The idea is that outsourcing is cheaper than American labor. I want to see some example of how that is so. Most of the "success stories" I read on the site you mentioned were primarily consulting gigs in testing or web development, and the first one I looked up (MedWizard for Millenium Pharmaceuticals), I could find no mention of it at Millenium's website. That doesn't mean they didn't do the work, of course, but I'm looking for something a little more substantial. Joe

[J.Pluta]

Some of the responses were pretty thin, Dan. The comment that all newbies are given only menial jobs - "formatting code" and "unit testing" - is pretty inaccurate, as far as I can tell. The two emails I quoted were definitely NOT asking how to format code. They wer easking how to do pretty high-level tasks. And the whole attitude that it's none of our business who works on the project... that's insane! Of course, it's also insane to ship the code over there in the first place. From what I understand, there are no laws preventing a company from just giving your code to a competitor. And if the project does go belly up, there is no legal recourse, you're just screwed. So, if a company overbooks itself and finds itself suddenly unable to staff projects, then what happens? You get newbies, and it's buyer beware, because you knew that going in. One of the posters even said that you should get special contracts for mission critical things ensuring the level of staff, but that the rates are then higher. Of course, if it's not mission critical stuff, it's probably not the work we're used to and not the jobs American IT staff are getting laid off from. See, there's a disconnect here. CEO's are saying American labor is too expensive, and the offshore firms are saying that they provide cheap labor for simple projects, but nobody's saying that offshore labor does the mission critical stuff more cheaply. Joe

[David Abramowitz]

Joe Pluta wrote: The idea is that outsourcing is cheaper than American labor. I want to see some example of how that is so. Joe brings out an important distinction here: A successful project completion may have cost more than the employers profits will bear! The real outsourcing success story would be one that was ultimately performed for less than the same effort would have cost if not outsourced. According to what I have read, this happens on an infrequent basis. Side note: Some times the good guys win - Dell computer has decided to end the foreign outsourcing of its support lines. Dave

[Guest.Visitor]

I have little sympathy for organized labor. What they want as an entitlement I have had to earn. I've been in the business world for 28 years and have never had free benefits. I don't EXPECT it. As to the entry position of $8 an hour: Go into my Vons or Albertsons and look at the name tags on the checkers. They show the year they started. There are NO checkers in my Vons who have started after 1991. They're ALL getting the high end of the pay scale. Why do you think that is? Because it's a gravy job with high pay. Why do you think they are fighting so hard? Because they realize that they're getting much more than they're worth. And, therein lies the problem we've been talking about. Entitlements. Once a worker, say a programmer, gets to a certain salary, it's hard for them to go back. They feel humiliated and embarrassed. I have taken pay cuts twice in my career to take a position that I thought would be better for me in the long run. It's tough, but worth it. I just can't imagine ANY union member ever doing such a thing. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Bill" <Bill_Robins@mcpressonline.com> wrote in message news:440E92E9967F27EEE71F5A4766DAC8AA@in.WebX.Wawy ahGHajS... > Chuck Ackerman wrote: > > Here in Southern California we have grocery workers on strike. > > Imagine, if you will, that these are people who earn in the > > neighborhood of $20 per hour and get ALL medical benefits, including > > dependent coverage, FOR FREE. What do they do? They scan barcodes > > all day long. (Yes, I know, they have to memorize the SKU number for > > bananas so one might argue that there is some skill in the job.) Yet > > they go on strike. Why? Because organized labor has convinced them > > that when the grocery store says that medical costs are too high and > > the employee should kick in $20/month for their fair share they are > > being cheated. (It really irks me since I pay about $800/ month for > > the same insurance but never once thought of complaining. I know > > that if I don't like it I can move on.) > > > > So, it's not just corporate America, it's often organized labor that > > has convinced minimum wage earners that they are entitled to two SUVs > > and 3 ATVs. > > Geez Chuck, you sure have a simplistic outlook on other workers. $20 an > hour is the top of the ladder, new hires are about $8. The workers gave up > some wage concessions in order to have all their med paid, so why not offer > your employer a reduced wage demand if they'll agree to pay all of your > medical costs? Oh and that $20 a month is for a single employee and the > absolute bottom option in coverage with it's requisite high deductibles and > larger co-pays and limited Physician participation - is that what you have > Chuck? > > Bill > >

[Guest.Visitor]

Recently there were headlines about how the productivity of the American worker is growing at the fastest rate in recent history. Usually I think of that as comprised of workers working extra hard so they don't lose their jobs, but maybe there's more to it than that. If I understand correctly, productivity is defined as the total dollars output divided by the total number of workers. Does anyone know if offshore outsource workers are counted in that total? I doubt they are. If they aren't, that means that part of our productivity growth can be attributed to shipping jobs overseas, right? Nice. I wonder how big of a factor it is. Brian

[Sunnyin]

Your research seems to be objective. Here is what you said: ‘Tata Infotech made over $2 billion last year in services.’ As far as I am aware, none of the Indian companies have a turnover of $2bn from IT. As a link you have attached the financial reports of Tata Infotech. But the link shows the revenues to be Rs. 483 Crore which is $100 million. Second quote: ‘And if you watched CNBC on November 15, you'd have seen Ratan N. Tata, the chairman of the Tata Group, as he was crowned the Ernst & Young Entrepreneur of the Year 2003.’ Is there something wrong with this? Do you think Ratan Tata is not eligible receive this award? Tata is $9bn group and IT forms only one of the 80 companies it has. For a H1 visa to be approved, the company has to prove that a person with similar skill set is not available in the US. That means something is wrong with this process. Some government employee ‘on site’ is not doing his job properly. Your experience of 90s (almost a decade ago) should have been substituted by some latest experience. You seem to generalise the whole companies based on two messages. If I quote two such messages from some forum about some European or an American will you generalise the workforce in that company? Overall it’s a good article about the cheap American politics and heavy lobbying by consulting firms. Welcome to Globalisation....

[David Abramowitz]

Sunnyin asked: Do you think Ratan Tata is not eligible receive this award? Ernst and Young sets the criteria, and Ernst and Young awards the award. If the individual did not meet Ernst and Young's criteria, then there would be reason to question elligibility. Not for other reasons. OTOH several states attorney generals sued Ernst and Young about a year ago for unfair business practices. The end result was that Ernst and Young was forced to divest itself of its subsidiary consulting firms. Once divested these firms could no longer do business with Ernst and Young's audit clients. This was similar (but not quite the same) as what Arthur Anderson, and Price Waterhouse were doing. From what I understand Ernst and Young's (unfair) business practices were particularly egregious, and not restricted to an isolated instance. Dave

[Sunnyin]

http://www.ey.com/global/content.nsf/US/Media_-_Release_-_11-22-03DC http://www.ey.com/GLOBAL/content.nsf/Canada/Media_-_2003_-_EOY_Recipients_Prairies

[J.Pluta]

Thanks for your reply, Sunnyin! Yes, I absolutely got the numbers wrong for Tata. I don't normally calculate in Crores, and I got the conversion wrong. Thank you for pointing it out, it makes me a little happier. But the Wipro numbers, which were in US dollars, are correct. As to the relationship between Ernst and Young and Tata, it's purely the fact that every consulting company has very strong ties with the offshore development companies, and their judgment is suspect. Again, I am waiting for the news of one successfully outsourced project in our industry, much less the repeat business claimed by many of these firms, and their advocates in the consulting industry. Regarding my experience, if you plan to challenge my assumptions, I suggest you have facts. Since I have yet to hear of any success stories, I'll go with my experience to date. The generalization issue has been raised, but this was not meant to be an all-encompassing thesis. In the interest of space I only picked two messages. If you go through the archives, you'll find many more. Feel free to do so. You can also find emails from the mailing list from Americans and/or Europeans, but you will find that newbie questions from Americans are not from consulting firms that advertise their expertise. This is my problem with the whole thing. We are being told by corporations that Americans are being displaced by cheaper labor, with the implication that this labor is as good as the American workforce. The questions we see on mailing lists do not reinforce this notion. And in fact, the recent discussions I have had with developers who have worked for the leading outsourcing firms leads me to this picture of a typical offshore development project: 1. Offshore company bids for project, touting experience in this area. 2. American company accepts bid, thinking they are getting experienced programmers. 3. Offshore company is actually made up of a relatively small percentage of experts, and LOTS of freshers. The typical project may have one or two senior people, a few people with medium experience, and a LOT of freshers. 4. American company thinks it is getting expert programming, when in truth the consulting company's freshers are posting questions on the Internet for basic functions of the project. The idea seems to be that the offshore companies believe that, under proper guideance, freshers can deliver code as good as experts and that the Internet is a good place to learn about client projects. We went through that in America about two decades ago. That was when we learned that the real cost of software development is not initial development, but maintenance. We learned that code written by inexperienced newbies is more brittle and more fragile than code written by experts, and so we came up with strict project development life cycles designed to allow delegation of menial work to new talent. The emails we see on the list indicate this is not the case with outsourced work. As to the H-1B problem, I have always said it is not the visa holder, it is the company that gets it that is at fault. We have all seen plenty of H-1B holders who do not have skills that cannot be found among the American workforce. And in fact, I challenge you to identify any such skill. Thus, the problem is that companies are lying, and the government is letting them get away with it. And the L-1 visas are even worse. Joe

[J.Pluta]

Sunnyin, are you making a point here? Perhaps that Ernst and Young picks winners from other areas? I'm sure you realize that the awards you quoted were regional awards, so by definition they had to be from that region. I, however, incorrectly identified Mr. Tata as the recipient of the "World Entrepeneur of the Year", but the World award for 2003 was actually given to Narayan Murthy of Infosys. Mr. Tata, who received this year's regional award for India, will vie for the World award next year. I regret the error. Joe

[J.Pluta]

I know you often type completely off-the-wall stuff to get a rise out of people, but this one is particularly egregious, Chuck: "They've grown accustomed to having the Motorhome, the ATVs and the 2 SUVs in the three car garage and just can't believe that someone would work for less and do without those luxuries." Which AS/400 programmers do you know with a motorhome and two SUVs in the three car garage? This is the sort of hyperbole that usually detracts from whatever point you're trying to make. I'm talking about two people, both working and trying to stay in a modest suburban house and put away some money for the kids' college fund. I'm talking about working single moms trying to make sure their kids can afford summer sports leagues. Your vision of the affluent AS/400 programmer is based on something you might have seen in the 90's, but I guarantee it's not the standard of living we're striving for today. Today we're just trying to make sure our kids are okay. Don't insult good, hard-working Americans with your rather skewed notion of our goals. We don't want to be rich. We just want to provide for our families. Joe

[Sunnyin]

Thanks for your message. I have had similar experience with American/European programmers as you. I have worked as a permanent employee/contractor for Big 5 and many more MNCs. The practices are quite similar. They hire fresh graduates who are available more cheaply. A person with almost no experience is sent onsite as a 'Consultant' and billed $1500 per day. I have tuned many programs written by these newbies because they just don't run or crash. As a contractor I had to train such guys so they can replace me. Clients think they are getting value for money. Clients beleive what you said in point 4. The tone of the article appeared to be more inclined in blaming the companies doing offshore business and less inclined towards blaming the US government and MNCs who want to make more money. I might be wrong. I reiterate the fact the article provides a good insight into cheap American politics and lobbying by consulting firms. About the success stories, I have seen no indications to the fact that, because outsourced projects are failures there has been lesser and lesser work is getting outsourced. Whilst they may not be as successful as they were predicted (as with any project of any nature), the statistical data about outsourcing says they are not failures. Your comments on E&Y award are interesting. I assume you beleive that the previous awards too are given to those who have strong relationship with E&Y. http://www.ey.com/global/content.nsf/International/EGC_-_Events_-_WEoY_-_Past_Winners I have nothing more to add. Best of luck.

[David Abramowitz]

Chuck Ackerman wrote: almost all of the best qualified candidates have names I can't pronounce <hyper-sarcastastic mode>I can't imagine how a name might influence an employment decision! David Abramowitz (now submitting resumes under the pseudonym "Neil Armstrong")</mode>

[J.Pluta]

Thanks for your thoughtful commentary, Sunnyin. I agree that the concept of putting inexperienced people on projects is not solely the province of offshore developers. In fact, we suffered from that to a great degree in America in the 90's. There were many contracting firms whose sole purpose was to get as many bodies working as possible, with little regard to the work product. Some of us called these firms "puppy mills", and when the dot-com bubble burst, many of those companies quickly went out of business. But they had already damaged the industry, and so I attribute at least partial blame to those companies. Had we as an industry been providing top-notch work for the dollar, many of our clients would have never even begun looking offshore. But now it seems that some of the most unproductive of those practices may have been revived by the outsourcers, and it is my fear that we're going to see much of the same results: overruns, missed tagret dates and companies going to cheaper, less powerful solutions simply because they've been burned too many times. This sort of practice is what may ultimately lead to the demise of the custom software industry. As to outsourcing and failures, the recent Dell announcement is simply the most visible failure. I am convinced others will follow. I have received emails outlining various outsourcing failures, most due to problems with language and time zones, while I have received absolutely zero accounts of companies that have had a successful outsourcing project, much less would be willing to begin another. And if you do not have repeat business, eventually the well runs dry. Finally, the relationship between Ernst and Young and the companies it names, well, I'll leave that to you. Take the time to see who is auditing whom, and who is on the various boards of directors, and you'll see very interesting interlocking relationships. I'm just saying that these awards are simply one more sign of how the consulting firms primary interests are their own interests, and that management needs to use this information when they determine whether or not the guidance such firms offer is biased or not. Joe

[dacust]

Joe, sometimes I think you don't listen to others. That was my point. The best example is your reply to me. You respond "I don't necessarily think the comments were objective". If you will read my post carefully and really try to listen to what I said, I said I thought YOU were being objective. I have never, in any of my posts expressed my own viewpoint about their comments. I was ONLY commenting about the way you were re-acting to them. The only reason I mentioned anything at all is because I think you have some very good points to make, but occasionally your arguing style means that most people that don't agree with you will not be won over by you. They will recognize that you haven't listened to them. At times you only listen to the things you want to hear, as evidenced by your response to me. Please note: If you sounded like an idiot, I wouldn't have bothered saying anything at all. If I dissagreed with what you said I would probably not have bothered as well. It's only because I agree with you that I hoped I could point out a minor flaw or two in your response to people. Sorry, this whole thing was meant to be a quick comment and has turned into several posts, I think I'll drop it. It has, however, caused me to decide to finish an article I started a while back on "Discussion Styles". If you'd like, I'll let you know if/when/where it gets published.

[Guest.Visitor]

Did any of you hear him say "Let the Software go to India" on the MSNBC debate? I screamed when I heard him say that. Carol Mosley Braun responded that she did not want the "software to go to India". I'm with Dennis Kucinich when he says he will cancel NAFTA and the WTO and renegotiate "FAIR" trade instead of "FREE" trade. I hope that everyone is following what is happening in our nation and the world. It is pretty scary. Margie Jessup

[Guest.Visitor]

Joe, I only report on my experiences. Here in socal an AS/400 programmer makes in the range of $65k to $105k. More toward the latter than the former. Your mileage may vary based upon locale. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Joe Pluta" <Joe_Pluta@mcpressonline.com> wrote in message news:6ae8818f.55@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > I know you often type completely off-the-wall stuff to get a rise out of people, but this one is particularly egregious, Chuck: > > "They've grown accustomed to having the Motorhome, the ATVs and the 2 SUVs in the three car garage and just can't believe that someone would work for less and do without those luxuries." > > Which AS/400 programmers do you know with a motorhome and two SUVs in the three car garage? This is the sort of hyperbole that usually detracts from whatever point you're trying to make. > > I'm talking about two people, both working and trying to stay in a modest suburban house and put away some money for the kids' college fund. I'm talking about working single moms trying to make sure their kids can afford summer sports leagues. Your vision of the affluent AS/400 programmer is based on something you might have seen in the 90's, but I guarantee it's not the standard of living we're striving for today. Today we're just trying to make sure our kids are okay. > > Don't insult good, hard-working Americans with your rather skewed notion of our goals. We don't want to be rich. We just want to provide for our families. > > Joe

[Guest.Visitor]

Joe said: "I'm talking about two people, both working and trying to stay in a modest suburban house and put away some money for the kids' college fund. I'm talking about working single moms trying to make sure their kids can afford summer sports leagues." I still stand by my comments. It matters not what you earn. It only matters if you are over priced for your skill set. We, as a country, should NOT protect underskilled or over paid workers to create artificially inflated salaries. The balloon will eventually pop. To stay employed at a higher salary you must continually increase your value. Most (but not all) employers are looking for a good return on investment (ROI) and that includes employees. And that is the basis of my comments. If you're constantly reinventing yourself and improving your value to the organization then you can earn the SUVs, big house and RVs. Unfortunately, many people focus on those things and expect it as an entitlement. As to the college fund. Anybody can go to college, at least here in California. A degree from one of the University of California campuses or the Calif. State Univ. campuses (two of the most prestigious colleges in the world) can cost less than $10,000 for all 4 years. It's the expensive colleges that are part of the "entitlement" culture that we think we need to be entitled to have. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[J.Pluta]

"It matters not what you earn. It only matters if you are over priced for your skill set." Overpriced compared to whom? Somebody in America or somebody in Bangalore? Since you're all about the ROI, Chuck, why don't you tell us what you think is the correct salary for a 20 year RPG veteran with extensive industry knowledge. I'm quite interested to see what you think your peers are worth. Then give me a salary quote for the same person who has taken night courses in Java and gotten one of the myriad Java certifications. Joe

[J.Pluta]

I guess I didn't understand your point: "I just feel that you discounted other's views a little too blithely. Not that you didn't listen or try to be fair. You did. I just felt you were passionate about what you felt and it caused you to overlook some of the points other's were making." You said "discounted ... too blithely", but then "Not that you didn't listen" and that I "overlook some of the points". And now you're saying "I don't listen to others". I got a little confused, and I (evidently incorrectly) thought that you meant I was dismissing valid points. My answer was that I didn't consider some of them valid - I considered them to be biased and non-factual. So when I argue against them, it's possible that my comments sounded a little simplistic. You have to also understand that especially on that forum there are occasionally language issues, and that it's best to keep answers simple. I have written sentences that I thought were clear and concise, only to find that I used some American idiom that simply didn't translate. At other times, I suppose I am frustrated by having to say the same things over and over again. In particular, the Indian philosophy that it doesn't matter who writes the code as lond as it gets finished, that bothers me. In trying to explain it over and over, I get return phrases like "I don't care who does the laundry, my maid or her daughter, as long as its clean." Certain cultural chasms can be quite tiresome to deal with, and I guess my frustration sometimes shows. THAT I have no excuse for, but it does happen. In any event, I do listen, Daniel, but sometimes I get confused. I'm only human <smile>. But thanks for taking the time to clarify your views. Joe

[Guest.Visitor]

You hit the nail on the head when you said: I believe that we, as Americans, have been beaten at our own game, capitalism, and are simply poor losers. Since America was the country that has made India accept globalism on many counts (There are many, many American businesses out here in India - They are doing well at the expense of our local and small-scale industries - millions are out of jobs), America should be man enough to accept the reality of its own game. It is only in software that the tides have turned. The advent of software in India has changed the quality of lives and people are increasingly growing up to western etiquettes as well as quality of software. I agree that a few Indians do ask questions in egroups like the ones mentioned. However, Indians are not at all the only ones who ask such questions. Americans outnumber them actually. Indians have lots of other qualities like flexibility. The most important point is of course that the JOB NEEDS TO GET DONE and done WELL. If the Indians can do it at a lesser cost, what makes Americans cry foul? Indians are out there to earn a living. We are not interested in harming your economy. As far as comments about living standards are concerned, I think that is purely racist. If we have money, living standards will follow as has happened in India in the last ten years. What globalisatin has done here is to make even the common man think about higher goals and try to achieve them. If legislature is used to stop the flow now, that will be completely partial.

[Guest.Visitor]

Also, about people made to train their replacements: There are several points. 1. If they are not meant to do so, they may be blackmailing the organisation into retaining them in the face of non-performance because of a certain skill set or knowledge which they do not share. That will make it anti-corporate, anti-apitalist, etc. everything that has made America what it is. 2. If A is made to replace B, it can not be simply because A is cheaper. It has to be because the job needs a skill set {x,y,z} which the organisation thinks A has or can build better/faster/both than B AND at a lesser cost. 3. In the end, it is going to be fair, whatever it is.

[Guest.Visitor]

<blockquote><tt>>Don't insult good, hard-working Americans with your rather skewed notion of our goals. We don't want to be rich. We just want to provide for our families. << </tt></blockquote> What makes you use that to insult good, hard-working Indians? Aren't we all providing for our families?

[Guest.Visitor]

<blockquote><tt>>>Overpriced compared to whom? Somebody in America or somebody in Bangalore? Since you're all about the ROI, Chuck, why don't you tell us what you think is the correct salary for a 20 year RPG veteran with extensive industry knowledge<<< </tt></blockquote> Then let's play fair and decide who should be entitled to what and what one is worth. Why complain about the rules after a goal is scored by the opponent?

[Guest.Visitor]

An interesting discussion - not quite flaming yet, but ready to boil over if it continues this way. The loss of jobs and globalization of the economy, among other recent trends, seems to me to be the advent of the corporate takeover of the world. The US, or India, or the EU may someday simply become subdivisions of ADM, EXXON, or AGFA if these trends continue and "Business Interests" prevail over all else. When was the last time you could vote to change the policy decisions of DuPont? I would not disregard what little policy influence we have left, and I don't advise tiptoeing and tapdancing for your ELECTED officials if you sense a problem somewhere. Simply tell them that you will do everything in your power to put THEM out of a job if they don't listen - diplomatically, of course. That's about all we have left.

[Guest.Visitor]

Joe Pluta stated: "At other times, I suppose I am frustrated by having to say the same things over and over again. In particular, the Indian philosophy that it doesn't matter who writes the code as lond as it gets finished, that bothers me." I don't understand what's wrong with that statement. It's also the philosophy of most American businesses. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[David Abramowitz]

Here are some indisputable facts on a personal level. My client has decided to outsource the entire It operation (domestically). I have been instructed to train several people on how our system works. The cost of outsourcing will be more than triple current expenditures. There has been no study of measurable gain of ROI. The contract was awarded without a needs analysis, or a spec. The contract was awarded without the knowledge of IT. IT was told after the fact. The owner of the outsourcing firm, and the senior VP of sales are good buddies. Dave

[Guest.Visitor]

Joe asked: "Overpriced compared to whom?" That's a simple one. Compared to your competition. It matters not whether your competition is the guy two doors down from you or 2 continents down. You will, and should, always be compared to anyone else who can complete the same tasks. Joe also asked: "why don't you tell us what you think is the correct salary for a 20 year RPG veteran with extensive industry knowledge." My answer is: it depends. Yes, that seems like a hedge, but if my needs are for a skilled programmer with 7 years experience and moderate industry knowledge then the person with 20 years experience with heavy industry knowledge is worth no more to me than the 7 year guy. I don't buy an iSeries model 890 when a model 820 will do. Joe challenged: "Then give me a salary quote for the same person who has taken night courses in Java and gotten one of the myriad Java certifications." Of course, this is a silly comparison. The Java certified guy with less experience is worth less. However, let me say that if the Java certified guy fills my requirements I will definitely hire him over the 20 year veteran simply because my budget was designed for a lower level position. It's a harsh reality that if I've budgeted $65k for a position and a resume' shows up where the applicant has been paid $90k+ for the last 10 years then they I will not interview that person. My 28 years of management experience tells me that if they take my $65k offer then they'll move on when a $90k job opens up. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Joe Pluta" <Joe_Pluta@mcpressonline.com> wrote in message news:6ae8818f.64@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > "It matters not what you earn. It only matters if you are over priced for your skill set." > > Overpriced compared to whom? Somebody in America or somebody in Bangalore? Since you're all about the ROI, Chuck, why don't you tell us what you think is the correct salary for a 20 year RPG veteran with extensive industry knowledge. I'm quite interested to see what you think your peers are worth. > > Then give me a salary quote for the same person who has taken night courses in Java and gotten one of the myriad Java certifications. > > Joe

[Guest.Visitor]

Dave, There are a number of companies that are just foolish. Remember, 95% of all businesses fail in the first 5 years. Many more fail after that first 5 years. So, based upon those numbers it's safe to say that MOST businesses will fail. The facts you pointed out below is a reason business failure. However, I've also seen many businesses that are so profitable that a poor ROI on projects doesn't harm them. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "David Abramowitz" <David_Abramowitz@mcpressonline.com> wrote in message news:6ae8818f.73@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > Here are some indisputable facts on a personal level. > * My client has decided to outsource the entire It operation (domestically). > * I have been instructed to train several people on how our system works. > * The cost of outsourcing will be more than triple current expenditures. > * There has been no study of measurable gain of ROI. > * The contract was awarded without a needs analysis, or a spec. > * The contract was awarded without the knowledge of IT. IT was told after the fact. > * The owner of the outsourcing firm, and the senior VP of sales are good buddies. > Dave

[J.Pluta]

"My answer is: it depends. Yes, that seems like a hedge," Yes, Chuck, it is. You provide no answers, only put the blame on the IT professional. Your only statement is to "learn more skills", even though they are already highly skilled. The comparison I offered was for a skilled RPG veteran who has also taken Java courses. What I'm trying to do is to determine from your viewpoint what an RPG programmer should ask for, and what other training they shoud have, because you say they are overpaid and underskilled. However, the real answer is that you will hire the cheapest person available for your position without regard to what it does to the industry. You simply are looking for the lowest bidder, and you are willing to take someone offshore to do it. That's exactly the attitude that's killing IT. You won't say how much you're willing to pay, you're just telling everybody they have to undercut everybody else, including people from other countries whose standard of living is one sixth of ours. You are part of the problem, Chuck. Joe

[J.Pluta]

"My 28 years of management experience tells me that if they take my $65k offer then they'll move on when a $90k job opens up." This argument is illogical. Who do you know that wouldn't move if a $90K position shows up? Since you show no loyalty to your workers, it's not surprising that they are going to jump whenever they can. But this is interesting: now you're saying that if somebody made more money in the past but is willing to reduce their salary requirements, you still won't hire them. Because basically you want all your work done by grunt labor so that you can pay them the minimum without worrying about them getting better jobs. This sounds like indentured servitude (or a visa program). You are definitely a part of the problem, Chuck. Joe

[J.Pluta]

You should really send this story to Laura Karmatz over at Time Magazine (laura_karmatz@timeinc.com), David. This is just the sort of information she is looking for. Joe

[Guest.Visitor]

<blockquote>However, the real answer is that you will hire the cheapest person available for your position without regard to what it does to the industry. You simply are looking for the lowest bidder, and you are willing to take someone offshore to do it.</blockquote> That's how business works - it moves towards the most efficient use of resources (aka the cheapest way to get something done). As long as the economy is global, offshore or not is irrelevant to many of those making the decisions. Competition demands efficiency. <blockquote> You are part of the problem, Chuck.</blockquote> I'd say that's needlessly personal, Joe. Regarding the scenario of the 20 year industry veteran RPG programmer vs. the Java certified person, the RPG programmer is, of course, worth less to a company that doesn't develop in RPG. The point being that current, relevant skills are as important in many scenarios as is experience in a technical position. Perhaps the 20 year person shouldn't be programming any more, if they've got good industry-specific skills. If they don't, then they aren't worth as much, because they haven't kept current. My $.02. Brian

[J.Pluta]

There is an underlying issue here that I was trying to get at. If employers insist on commoditizing programming skills - that is, insisting on using the cheapest resources, regardless of the effect on the workforce in America - then we will have a significant brain drain. If you are instead willing to set certain levels of programming skills, and say "for this job, you get this much", I'll bet you can find many employees willing to work for that rate. But if you insist on American employees undercutting L-1 visa holder or an outsourced developer from China making 10 bucks an hour, then there is no way Americans can compete. Is it personal? Perhaps. But unless you personally want IT to go offshore, then you better think about how to fix this situation. By the way, some of it will be self-fixing. Outsourcing hasn't yet worked in our industry, and we're seeing that. Also, Indian salaries are rising 15% a year, and they're already having problems staffing jobs with experienced people. If we continue to close the visa loopholes, we may stem the tide somewhat. But by opening our borders to workers from countries whose standard of living is so much lower than our own, then you're in fact embracing a complete destruction of the American economy. Remember, during a leveling process, the top percentage is what gets reduced, or haven't you figured that out yet? You talk about the global economy as if it's a good thing, a natural thing, an inevitable thing that you embrace. If so, then you better be willing to live on a standard of living similar to that in Bangalore, because I guarantee the entire world won't get to our level. And when the standard US salary is roughly $12,000, who will buy the DVD players and the designer shoes? And finally, if you think that all programming is done in shops that don't use RPG, then you clearly don't understand this entire industry, Brian. Sure, a lot of web development is being done in Java, but Java doesn't do business logic. And talk about personal! To say a 20 year programmer shouldn't be programming anymore is the height of personal prejudice! You owe a lot of people an apology. Joe

[David Abramowitz]

It really doesn't take much to get a handle on what is considered "average" in various parts of the country. Just get a link from this site to one of the Nate Viall surveys. You could also look at http://www.monster.com or http://www.dice.com or http://www.net-temps.com or one of many other fine job search sites. Many of the prospective employers post potential payments. It is not an exaggeration to say, that in quite a few instances, the compensation for "senior" personnel is less than I was earning twenty years ago! Dave

[David Abramowitz]

Brian Singleton wrote: That's how business works - it moves towards the most efficient use of resources (aka the cheapest way to get something done). As long as the economy is global, offshore or not is irrelevant to many of those making the decisions. Competition demands efficiency I might actually agree with you bur for the fact that the company using the services of an outsourcer never actually knows the quality or quantity of the people who actually do the work. The company receiving the services relies on the outsourcer to do the hires. The pity is that most executives making such a decision have so much of their own career invested in the decision, that a positive spin will be put on the outsourcing effort, whether or not it is actually "cheaper", or even successful. In the old days, the joke was that you might hire a secretary who does shorthand, but it takes her twice as long! The fact of the matter is that a successful outsourcing effort requires a great deal more management than in-house development. Without the necessary oversight, and the cost associated with it, the outsourcing effort will fail. According to all the braintrusts, that is precisely why outsourcing does not work most of the time. Do you need change for the deuce? Dave

[Guest.Visitor]

Aye carumba - I guess I stepped into it, didn't I? One of these days, I'll learn to keep my mouth shut. :-)</p> <blockquote>You talk about the global economy as if it's a good thing, a natural thing, an inevitable thing that you embrace.</blockquote> Show me where I said that, since it's counter to my beliefs. However, the global economy is now reality, like it or not.</p> <blockquote>Remember, during a leveling process, the top percentage is what gets reduced, or haven't you figured that out yet? </blockquote> I'm not stupid, and I have figured that out. Since we're at the top of the global heap for the time being, I'm still trying to figure out how globalization helps us. One group I can think of that it helps is those looking for cheap labor, but that certainly isn't the majority of us.</p> The one thing I cling to to keep things in perspective is the belief that if you protect an industry, then you perhaps forfeit progress. For example, if we threw up bigger barriers to protect the steel or auto industry in the 70's, we'd most likely produce more steel than we do now. But is that the best thing we can do? I'd rather use our national resources to build more advanced things (spaceships, figuratively speaking) than to make steel. Cuz if we don't, someone else will. I know that's little solace for the steel worker who's losing a job, but on the larger scale, that's the direction I'd rather head as a nation. And that's the direction our leaders have chosen. And aren't we, in the end, responsible for our leaders? </p> Call me elitist or an idealist, but if I were dictator, I'd rather have the best and the brightest programmers working for us, making things that will amaze the world and give us competitive advantage. If some types of programming are relegated to commodity status and able to be obtained for a low price, then so be it. The world progresses. The super-tough part of that is deciding where and how to draw the line, and that's not something I can say much about. I do understand how tough it is to embrace constant change and constant growth, but that's the world we live in, unless we decide to change it.</p> I know - what I said above doesn't help those who are being outsourced. And it doesn't answer the questions of globalism vs. protectionism. It's just my thoughts on how we might gain out of all this as a nation. I'm still trying to figure out the rest. And I won't be put in a position of defending globalization, since that's not my belief. I'm still trying to understand it, in the big picture.</p> <blockquote>But by opening our borders to workers from countries whose standard of living is so much lower than our own, then you're in fact embracing a complete destruction of the American economy. </blockquote> I embrace legal, permanent immigration as our nation has for 200+ years. We need fresh blood to keep us on our toes! But perhaps that's not what you meant. I don't like exporting talent - we need to be an importer of talent. I'd like to think we can skim the cream off the top, because the best and the brightest from other countries see America as a place where they can succeed to their full potential. As long as we keep that, we keep our edge. And our education system better be the best in the world, too. But that's a subject for another thread. I'll skip your baiting last paragraph, since you seemed to have missed my original point and twisted my words. Let's talk about ideas and solutions, not about each other.</p> Thanks for the great, thought-provoking article!</p> Brian

[J.Pluta]

I just looked at Nate Viall, and a Midrange Programmer V, the highest level midrange programmer, is looking at $75-95K in my area (Chicago). That's certainly much higher than we're seeing, and more than Chuck is willing to pay. What I want to know is at what point will employers like Chuck make jobs available to Americans? Or is he simply going to ship the job to the lowest bidder, regardless of the effect on the US economy? It's really not a difficult question. Joe

[J.Pluta]

First off, my number one problem is visas. These do not fit the "global economy" mantra you're quoting. That's because these people are not immigrants, yet they're working on American soil using American equipment to displace American workers. This is a far cry from outsourcing, and it is only enabled through intervention from our Congress. Congress can close those loopholes it opened, and that's the first mandatory step. I'm not asking for protectionism. I'm asking for the removal of artificial inducements to hiring non-citizens to replace American workers. If you don't agree on this point, that's a separate issue. I don't think we need protectionism on outsourcing. As we've seen in the case of Dell, outsourcing doesn't work for everything. And frankly, I'm pretty comfortable that once industries realize the actual costs associated with outsourcing (time zone issues, language issues, quality control issues, expertise issues), and as Indian salaries rise, the incentive to offshore will lessen considerably, except in the case of buddy deals like the one David pointed out. You see, I'm not protectionist. I want to wipe out the unsupportable Congressional incentives to replacing American workers with cheap non-citizen labor. If we eradicate the visa policies, it is my belief that the outsourcing will never go beyond simple web applications and desktop projects. I know what developing software, real application software, requires, and I have yet to see a successful example of it being outsourced. I didn't miss your point. You missed mine. Visas are bad, and must be stopped. Their original reason for being, if it was ever valid, is certainly not valid any longer. On the other side of the coin, if people like Chuck insist on hiring the lowest bidder, then they are contributing to the destruction of an entire generation of expertise - expertise that will not come back. If you think a newbie out of Bangalore university has a clue what an MRP gen is, or a physical inventory, or a three-way match, you're sadly mistaken. And yes, they're cheap short-term, but when your code stops working and your orders start backing up and you find yourself spending three hours on the phone explaining what an RMA is, then you'll see what you got for your dollars. Since when does the ability to understand Java syntax have anything to do with application development skill? >>sigh<< Joe

[dacust]

Joe, The problem is that it is a global economy. If our IT industry (or ANY industry) can't provide the services at a competitive rate, then we either have to lower our prices or go into another business. Granted, there are many valid arguments that in many (most?) cases, the decisions being made to outsource overseas are done in an uninformed maner, based only on dolloars instead of ROI. But THAT is what we should address to business leaders. If they make informed decisions, then the legislation isn't needed. (I'm refering to outsourcing overseas, not to visas. That's another, more complex issue). If in the end, another country CAN provide a quality product for a competitive rate, we in this country have two choices: 1) Get another job that we CAN do competitively in the global economy, or 2) lower our standard of living. When we look at the standard of living world wide, we in the USA are so far above average that it's hard to imagine that we can sustain the standard of living we have now, indefinately. My opinion is that we will have to do both. Or rather, we will have no choice but to: 1) accept a lower standard of living than we have have for the past 6 decades. To keep that from being TOO drastic, we MUST 2) work towards finding industries that we can sell on the world market. Legislating or way into keeping jobs here in-country is just delaying the inevitable and making the end result worse than facing it now. Basically, whenever I hear arguments using "standard-of-livivg" to prove that overseas competition is unfair, I think the person saying that just doesn't get reality. The reason we have a high standard is because we get paid that much. The other countries are getting paid better now, and that is what will help THEM raise THEIR standard of living. They are just now doing what we have been successful at for decades. Why should we think that is unfair? We should limit our complaints to decisions being made that are wrong based on ROI, security, and the like, and quit using arguments that make it sound like we think we (the USA) and ONLY we are entitled to a high standard of living. -dan

[Guest.Visitor]

Joe, I love the way you put words into my mouth. You simply have no idea what I'm willing to pay. The only discuss we've had on pay is my theoretical example of a $65k position where a $95k person applied. I suspect that maybe you should do some objective reading and not try to stretch things to fit your argument. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Joe Pluta" <Joe_Pluta@mcpressonline.com> wrote in message news:6ae8818f.84@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > I just looked at Nate Viall, and a Midrange Programmer V, the highest level midrange programmer, is looking at $75-95K in my area (Chicago). That's certainly much higher than we're seeing, and more than Chuck is willing to pay. > > What I want to know is at what point will employers like Chuck make jobs available to Americans? Or is he simply going to ship the job to the lowest bidder, regardless of the effect on the US economy? It's really not a difficult question. > > Joe

[Guest.Visitor]

I did read the article a while back, but I was commenting on the some of the comments made in this thread, and on the big picture of outsourcing and globalization in general. I totally agree with you on visas! As I said (in many more words) in my last post, we need to be the best and attract and keep the best! Re: outsourcing...Companies that do things on the cutting edge of cheap get what they pay for and lose in the long run. I've got recent experience with that. MRP gen, phy. inv, and three-way matches (what's that? [grin]) can be taught/learned, so I personally wouldn't count on that for safety. People are smart, and if there's a big benefit to doing so, they'll iron out the kinks and make things work, eventually. Perhaps not, but I wouldn't bet against it. Later! Brian <--- loves a lively, smart discussion!

[dacust]

Joe, I posted the above AFTER reading your post that your article was mainly about visa's. Just to clarify, I was responding to the statements made about outsourcing. And since I've been throwing my opinions around in this room, the outsourcing seems to be what most everyone else was talking about. If I decide I have the stamina for it, maybe I'll tackle the visa problem next... :)

[Guest.Visitor]

Joe, You really are reaching here, eh? How do you make the leap from ANY of my comments that I'm not loyal to my workers? I actually have one of the best retention records of any manager around. In fact, I've had a number of programmers follow me from place to place. Two, of which, work for me at this moment have worked with me at 3 previous employers. I am loyal to my workers and pay them well. $90k is just average here in So. Cal. If you're talented, expect to earn more. Joe said:"now you're saying that if somebody made more money in the past but is willing to reduce their salary requirements, you still won't hire them." Then Joe proved my point by saying: "Who do you know that wouldn't move if a $90K position shows up?" My answer to the prior question is "yes." If they're willing to cut their salary by 30% (as in my example) it's pretty clear that they are just using me as a parking place. I don't want that kind of employee. Joe said: "Because basically you want all your work done by grunt labor so that you can pay them the minimum without worrying about them getting better jobs." Another leap. In ALL of my discussions about pay vs. skills I have ALWAYS claimed that if you keep your skills up and make yourself valuable you will find commensurate work. My gripe is about those that do the same thing day after day, never improving their skills, only knowing RPG III, not knowing HTML or JavaScript and then gripe like hell when they're laid off and can't find new work. It's all about competition in our capitalistic society and that includes labor. Keep competitive and flexible everything will work out. Stay stale and rusty and you will pay the price for it. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[Guest.Visitor]

Joe said: "Your only statement is to "learn more skills", even though they are already highly skilled." First, I find it hard to believe that that is my ONLY statement. ;) Second, "highly skilled" and valuable skills may be entirely different things. Somebody that can program in CPM Basic is highly skilled, but who cares? Joe said: "The comparison I offered was for a skilled RPG veteran who has also taken Java courses." This person has been lead down the wrong path by IBM. The Java courses are a niche skill and won't do much in the mainstream world. Learing HTML, Javascript and ASP are mainstream skills that an RPG programmer would do well to learn. I have no use for Java trained personnel. Joe claimed, incorrectly: "However, the real answer is that you will hire the cheapest person available for your position" Joe also claimed, correctly:"without regard to what it does to the industry." I care not for the industry. I care for my employer and the welfare of my employees. The industry is something contrived by vendors. Joe also made factual errors when he stated: "You simply are looking for the lowest bidder, and you are willing to take someone offshore to do it." I've never hired someone offshore and don't have any plans to do so. It would be a logistical nightmare for me and my company. What I DID say, please go back and reread my statements, is that there is nothing wrong with competition and we should not legislate high salaries. Joe again read only half my statements by stating: "you're just telling everybody they have to undercut everybody else, including people from other countries whose standard of living is one sixth of ours." Sigh, let me s-p-e-l-l it out clearly since you seem to have trouble understanding. Make yourself MORE VALUABLE than the competition, e.g. offshore workers, and you will do just fine. If you are better than the competition you will win. If you aren't better and it requires you to undercut them, then so be it. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[J.Pluta]

"Make yourself MORE VALUABLE than the competition, e.g. offshore workers, and you will do just fine." We still are. It's because you're willing to hire cheap offshore labor that we can't compete. You've already said you won't hire someone who is stepping down in salary, Chuck. Those were YOUR words. So how can they compete? You've locked them out of your shop by your hiring practices. Instead, they'd have to have three, four times the skills of someone offshore. That's not reasonable. Tell me what skill set you think would justify an $80,000 a year salary. How about $60,000? Please, statr quantifying and stop using fuzzy phrases. I'm trying to get an answer, not an excuse. Joe

[J.Pluta]

"My gripe is about those that do the same thing day after day, never improving their skills, only knowing RPG III, not knowing HTML or JavaScript and then gripe like hell when they're laid off and can't find new work." There isn't one person that I know who is insisting on an RPG III job, Chuck. They are RPG programmers, with varying levels of ILE ability, and at least passing knowledge of browsers. They may not know HTML, but if you put that down as a requirement, I'm sure they can learn it. You're willing to teach somebody offshore your business, you should be willing to let someone who has a solid programming background learn a new skill as well. How much HTML do they have to know, Chuck? Concrete facts, man. How much JavaScript? What do they need it for and why? You want an RPG programmer to be a web developer, but I guarantee you're not finding outsourced web development labor that knows RPG. Joe

[J.Pluta]

"I've never hired someone offshore and don't have any plans to do so. It would be a logistical nightmare for me and my company. What I DID say, please go back and reread my statements, is that there is nothing wrong with competition and we should not legislate high salaries." And that's my point. Outsourcing doesn't work, and I don't really care about it. But I do care about visa holders artificially deflating programming prices. Have you hired visa programmers? If so, why? Were they being hired at the average American salary level as mandated by law? If so, your price point argument goes out the window. So unless you are hiring people with visas who have higher skill sets than Americans (unlikely in the RPG world) or you are trying to find uncommon combinations of skill sets (such as advanced RPG knowledge and web application experience), or you are illegally hiring non-citizens at lower than the prevailing wage, then you have no reason to go outside the American market. Joe

[J.Pluta]

Who ARE you hiring? Yuo seem to be saying you're not hiring American workers because they cost too much, and you've specifically stated you're not hiring outsourcing firms. So who are you hiring? Or are you just using this forum to vent your regular mantra that you consider American programmers overpriced and underskilled? Joe

[J.Pluta]

Anyway, Chuck, it seems that I have a few misapprehensions about your situation, and I dno't think I've perhaps explained my own opinions as succinctly as I might. I've fallen victim to saying a few phrases that aren't exactly constructive, so I'd like to do one of two things: 1. Find some ground rules to discuss your situation. This has to do with determining what you think the current required skill sets are and what the market rate is for such skills. I'd like to see what positions you see open in today's industry and why you think Americans can't fill those positions. It is my belief that if we cut past our own respective rhetorics that we may be able to meet somewhere in the middle on what the issues are. 2. We just drop the conversation, since it's obvious that we come from diametrically opposed viewpoints and there is little to gain by simply reiterating our stances. It's up to you. If you feel like answering my fist question using some sort of concrete facts (skill lists, round salary figures), then we can continue. If not, then let's just agree to disagree, and for my part I apologize for any things I said which were less than complimentary to you as a person. I get very frustrated by this because I know of people who HAVE kept their skills up, who HAVE learned new job skills, and who are being asked to accept pay rates of less than $25/hour. Combine that with your concept that someone willing to work for less than they used to make is not a good risk, and I just don't see how anyone can get a job. But that doesn't excuse rudeness, and I certainly was rude. I apologize. Joe

[J.Pluta]

"However, having said that I do NOT want federal legislation to protect jobs in our industry." Um. When in ALL of my posts, my entire article, or in any place on the planet have I asked for legislation to protect jobs????? Joe

[J.Pluta]

"Of course, without such workers you would never be able to afford lettuce, tomatoes, or any other fruit or vegetable. ;)" The migrant farm worker question is completely different than the H-1B and L-1 visa issue, Chuck, and it's inappropriate for this conversation. We can bring in all sorts of outside conversations; this is about programmers. And personally, I'm perfectly happy to pay higher prices for produce, so the argument doesn't wash. Joe

[Guest.Visitor]

Joe, Since you seem to want to make this a personal fight, let me give you some insight into my personal management style. When I hire staff members I look for the best talent available. I hire better than average people and pay them much better than average salaries. I expect longevity and know that an employee that stays long saves me lots of money in the long run. Therefore, the "golden handcuffs" of a generous salary puts the issue of them jumping ship to bed. Most of my programmers are being paid at or above the highest numbers we've bantered here in this forum. The average length of tenure on my staff is over 9 years. However, having said that I do NOT want federal legislation to protect jobs in our industry. What that does is artificially raise salaries for those that don't deserve it. What this does is raise costs. That translates into higher prices to the consumer. There is NOTHING good about salary or job protection in a capitalistic society. It only causes inflation that hurts everybody, even the few who are supposedly being protected. Therefore, even though I don't outsource and even though I don't pay low wages, I will defend the right of others to do so. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Joe Pluta" <Joe_Pluta@mcpressonline.com> wrote in message news:6ae8818f.80@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > There is an underlying issue here that I was trying to get at. If employers insist on commoditizing programming skills - that is, insisting on using the cheapest resources, regardless of the effect on the workforce in America - then we will have a significant brain drain. > > If you are instead willing to set certain levels of programming skills, and say "for this job, you get this much", I'll bet you can find many employees willing to work for that rate. But if you insist on American employees undercutting L-1 visa holder or an outsourced developer from China making 10 bucks an hour, then there is no way Americans can compete. > > Is it personal? Perhaps. But unless you personally want IT to go offshore, then you better think about how to fix this situation. > > By the way, some of it will be self-fixing. Outsourcing hasn't yet worked in our industry, and we're seeing that. Also, Indian salaries are rising 15% a year, and they're already having problems staffing jobs with experienced people. If we continue to close the visa loopholes, we may stem the tide somewhat. But by opening our borders to workers from countries whose standard of living is so much lower than our own, then you're in fact embracing a complete destruction of the American economy. Remember, during a leveling process, the top percentage is what gets reduced, or haven't you figured that out yet? > > You talk about the global economy as if it's a good thing, a natural thing, an inevitable thing that you embrace. If so, then you better be willing to live on a standard of living similar to that in Bangalore, because I guarantee the entire world won't get to our level. And when the standard US salary is roughly $12,000, who will buy the DVD players and the designer shoes? > > And finally, if you think that all programming is done in shops that don't use RPG, then you clearly don't understand this entire industry, Brian. Sure, a lot of web development is being done in Java, but Java doesn't do business logic. And talk about personal! To say a 20 year programmer shouldn't be programming anymore is the height of personal prejudice! You owe a lot of people an apology. > > Joe

[Guest.Visitor]

Joe said: " First off, my number one problem is visas. These do not fit the "global economy" mantra you're quoting. That's because these people are not immigrants, yet they're working on American soil using American equipment to displace American workers." Of course, without such workers you would never be able to afford lettuce, tomatoes, or any other fruit or vegetable. ;) chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[J.Pluta]

As far as I've been able to read: 1. You're not hiring American workers because they're too expensive. 2. You're not hiring outsourcing firms. I mean, I could be wrong about point one - you might hiring American workers, but just expressing your opinion that they're overpaid and underskilled, but that's not the sense I got from your statements. So who are you hiring? Joe

[Guest.Visitor]

Joe said: "They may not know HTML, but if you put that down as a requirement, I'm sure they can learn it." Ah, but they need to know it now. The HTML and JavaScript requirements have been written on the wall for years. Going into an interview saying, "no, but I can learn it," is the surest way to be eliminated from the hiring process. Joe again incorrectly asserted: "You're willing to teach somebody offshore your business" Show me where I've said that I would hire someone offshore. Or... just shut up about it! chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[Guest.Visitor]

Joe, You're embarrassing yourself now, Joe. Cut it out, will ya? chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Joe Pluta" <Joe_Pluta@mcpressonline.com> wrote in message news:6ae8818f.95@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > Who ARE you hiring? Yuo seem to be saying you're not hiring American workers because they cost too much, and you've specifically stated you're not hiring outsourcing firms. So who are you hiring? Or are you just using this forum to vent your regular mantra that you consider American programmers overpriced and underskilled? > > Joe

[Guest.Visitor]

Joe claimed: "Outsourcing doesn't work" I agree that mostly it doesn't work. There are some success stories so I'm not willing to flat out say it doesn't work. Joe asked: "Have you hired visa programmers?" Not that I know of. I interview people, pass the ones I want to hire onto our loss prevention department, and if I get an OK then I hire them. Joe claimed: "you are trying to find uncommon combinations of skill sets (such as advanced RPG knowledge and web application experience)" Your lack of knowledge of the AS/400 programmer is showing here. I have over 100 resumes from my current programmer search and you're way off base on how common the combination is. I suspect the average RPG programmer knows it's a MUST to be talented in HTML also. Only the small vertical AS/400 shops are RPG-only environments these days. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[Guest.Visitor]

Joe, I find your replies becoming sadly Incomprehensible. You pick up one phrase out of context and don't let it go. Sorry to say that conversions with you have become unproductive. Bye, chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Joe Pluta" <Joe_Pluta@mcpressonline.com> wrote in message news:6ae8818f.92@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > "Make yourself MORE VALUABLE than the competition, e.g. offshore workers, and you will do just fine." > > We still are. It's because you're willing to hire cheap offshore labor that we can't compete. You've already said you won't hire someone who is stepping down in salary, Chuck. Those were YOUR words. So how can they compete? You've locked them out of your shop by your hiring practices. Instead, they'd have to have three, four times the skills of someone offshore. That's not reasonable. > > Tell me what skill set you think would justify an $80,000 a year salary. How about $60,000? Please, statr quantifying and stop using fuzzy phrases. I'm trying to get an answer, not an excuse. > > Joe

[Guest.Visitor]

Joe, It's clear that you haven't been in management. If you had, then you would understand the implications of a manager posting private salary information in a public forum. My condolences. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Joe Pluta" <Joe_Pluta@mcpressonline.com> wrote in message news:6ae8818f.92@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > "Make yourself MORE VALUABLE than the competition, e.g. offshore workers, and you will do just fine." > > We still are. It's because you're willing to hire cheap offshore labor that we can't compete. You've already said you won't hire someone who is stepping down in salary, Chuck. Those were YOUR words. So how can they compete? You've locked them out of your shop by your hiring practices. Instead, they'd have to have three, four times the skills of someone offshore. That's not reasonable. > > Tell me what skill set you think would justify an $80,000 a year salary. How about $60,000? Please, statr quantifying and stop using fuzzy phrases. I'm trying to get an answer, not an excuse. > > Joe

[Guest.Visitor]

Joe, Refresh my memory. Wasn't it you who urged us to go to our legislature and have them get involved in the visa issue? chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Joe Pluta" <Joe_Pluta@mcpressonline.com> wrote in message news:6ae8818f.99@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > "However, having said that I do NOT want federal legislation to protect jobs in our industry." > > Um. When in ALL of my posts, my entire article, or in any place on the planet have I asked for legislation to protect jobs????? > > Joe

[J.Pluta]

"I have over 100 resumes from my current programmer search and you're way off base on how common the combination is." Part of our disconnect, Chuck, is that I don't equate HTML with web application skills. I can think of few cases where RPG knowledge in combination with HTML is good for much of anything except perhaps basic CGI programming. Why would you have RPG programmers designing HTML? HTML is usually best designed by a good HTML design tool. Web applications, on the other hand - JSPs, and certainly servlets and JSP II architecture - is definitely a plus for an RPG programmer. Another plus would be SQL and especially stored procedures. XML and the ability to access the IFS, definitely a good skill to add to RPG. But basic HTML just isn't a power skill. So are you telling me the key to programming in your shop is RPG and HTML, with JavaScript for good measure, and no Java or JSP? My guess is you can find plenty of those right here in America. Joe

[J.Pluta]

Chuck, I urged our legislature to get OUT of the visa issue! The visa policies, both H-1B and L-1, were created by Congress to aid in a perceived shortage of American high tech workers back in the 90's. Given the state of unemployment in those sectors today, it is my belief that the programs have outlived their useful purpose and should be removed from the books. And I am not alone in this belief - nobody is claiming a current shortage. Even companies like Forrester (which were claiming a shortage as late as last year) now admit that there is no such shortage. But they have a new tack! The outsourcing companies and their consulting partners are NOW saying that, because American companies are outsourcing, American workers aer finding other jobs, and thus there will be a new shortage of workers! How's that for a self-fulfilling prophecy? Anyway, curtailing or eliminating the H-1B and L-1 visa programs would in effect would return us to the status quo prior to those visa prgorams being enacted and would reduce the Congressional involvement in the employment issue. Does that clear up my position? Joe

[buck.calabro@commsoft.net]

Joe said >So unless you are hiring people with visas who have >higher skill sets than Americans (unlikely in the RPG >world) or you are trying to find uncommon combinations >of skill sets (such as advanced RPG knowledge and >web application experience), or you are illegally hiring >non-citizens at lower than the prevailing wage, then you >have no reason to go outside the American market. I'm responding in the spirit of one who wants to be part of the solution, so please read my words in that light. The American market is something of a misnomer, in that it is difficult for a programmer here in Albany, NY to know about job opportunities in sunny California. It is very apparent that overseas body shops find these jobs and place the résumés of their employees in front of hiring personnel. It's clear enough that there's no real US organisation who will place American programmer's résumés in front of many potential employers. What are my choices here? I can sign on with a half dozen recruiting firms, but that poses an ethical problem for me, in that I'll have a bunch working for me, but only one will be paid for their efforts. I can sign on with a large consulting company like Keane and trust that the economy doesn't get me laid off in a year (now that I'm at the bottom of the career ladder. Again.) It really looks like it is not possible to be an employee with a steady job (a career even?!) The future seems to be hopping from project to project (like the contractors do.) But how does a one-man contractor get his name out there? Sign me Bewildered in Albany --buck

[J.Pluta]

"It's clear that you haven't been in management. If you had, then you would understand the implications of a manager posting private salary information in a public forum." I am asking a simple question: how much do you think these people are worth? It's not a private salary question. I am not asking how much someone makes, I am asking what you think they SHOULD make. I asked how many skills are required to justify an $80K or $60K salary. These can't even be VAGUELY associated with revealing private salary information. I'm trying to keep this conversation factual. You refuse to answer the questions. As to my credentials, before my tenure as an independent consultant and now as an independent software vendor, I was the Manager of Architecture at System Software Associates, at the time the world's largest AS/400 software developer. I had hiring, firing, salary, budget, hardware, software, design, development and QA responsibility for the entire client/server development staff, which put out three million-line products translated to eight languages in the space of two years. I also had indirect responsibility for marketing and revenue forecasts. Joe

[J.Pluta]

Bill Robins said: "what you are interpreting as his desire to hire from overseas is Chuck's lack of empathy for other programmers in different life situations." Thanks, Bill. I just couldn't make sense of the point - will he or won't he hire Americans, and what is the price/skillset level that he requires? I just can't wrap my head around it. Joe

[J.Pluta]

"You simply have no idea what I'm willing to pay." No, I don't, because I'm still waiting for you to make one concrete answer as to what a reasonable salary for a reasonable skill set is. You won't do that, but you say that American programmers are underskilled and overpaid, so I can only assume that whatever Americans are making is too much for you. What other conclusion can I draw? Joe

[Guest.Visitor]

Joe Pluta wrote: > As far as I've been able to read: > > 1. You're not hiring American workers because they're too expensive. > > 2. You're not hiring outsourcing firms. > > I mean, I could be wrong about point one - you might hiring American > workers, but just expressing your opinion that they're overpaid and > underskilled, but that's not the sense I got from your statements. > > So who are you hiring? I think I'll timidly step in here. Joe, Chuck is/will hire locally; what you are interpreting as his desire to hire from overseas is Chuck's lack of empathy for other programmers in different life situations. I dislike the 3rd person reference, but from what I can see, Chuck has buckets for everyone and the placement of people in those buckets are a very black and white process. Bill

[Guest.Visitor]

kausix wrote: > Since America was the country that has made India accept globalism on > many counts (There are many, many American businesses out here in > India - They are doing well at the expense of our local and > small-scale industries - millions are out of jobs), America should be > man enough to accept the reality of its own game. It is only in > software that the tides have turned. Interesting concept, I wonder if Indians will feel the same way when the companies currently using them will move on to even cheaper countries. There is an enormous parallel between off-shore programming and off-shore manufacturing. I'm just amazed at the lengths some manufacturers will go to keep the price of their goods low. An article I scanned yesterday mentioned that one manufacturer is threatening Southern Chinese employees with the movement of facilities to Western China. Bill

[Guest.Visitor]

Here's an article I found interesting on the market effects of Walmart. http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/77/walmart.html

[Guest.Visitor]

Joe Pluta wrote: > Thanks, Bill. I just couldn't make sense of the point - will he or > won't he hire Americans, and what is the price/skillset level that he > requires? I just can't wrap my head around it. He will hire "American", he just won't hire someone who is willing to take a drop in salary (which goes directly against his feelings about those out of work). You are mixing several scenarios that have been discussed: Chuck thinks anyone out of work and complaining about their unemployment is just being stubborn and not willing to price themselves at market rates. Chuck is looking for a programmer and is surprised that some people who have worked at rates higher than what he might pay, or what he puts at their worth bothered to send in a resume. (I can't tell the scenario since I haven't seen the advertisement and whether or not salary was mentioned in the ad). Many applicants that responded to his ad had "un-American" last names. Residing also in Southern California I can relate to that and also just note it as an item of interest. Bill

[J.Pluta]

Wanna know what's really interesting? That page has a rotating ad space, and when I clicked in the ad happened to be for: eServer iSeries! Very eerie... <grin> Joe

[Guest.Visitor]

Starbuck5250, Or, you can just look at Monster.com. I advertised for a senior programmer/analyst a month ago in Monster and the L.A. Times. I have not, and probably will not, entertain any offers from head hunters. I got about 80 resumes in the first week and feel there was enough good talent there from which to choose. I got resumes from all over the country, even all over the world. Surely, this is something that you should be able to access in Albany. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "starbuck5250" <starbuck5250@mcpressonline.com> wrote in message news:7BA6D7C9C0CCFCD1977093C57F2774C6@in.WebX.Wawy ahGHajS... > Joe said > > >So unless you are hiring people with visas who have > >higher skill sets than Americans (unlikely in the RPG > >world) or you are trying to find uncommon combinations > >of skill sets (such as advanced RPG knowledge and > >web application experience), or you are illegally hiring > >non-citizens at lower than the prevailing wage, then you > >have no reason to go outside the American market. > > I'm responding in the spirit of one who wants to be part of the solution, so > please read my words in that light. > > The American market is something of a misnomer, in that it is difficult for > a programmer here in Albany, NY to know about job opportunities in sunny > California. It is very apparent that overseas body shops find these jobs > and place the résumés of their employees in front of hiring personnel. It's > clear enough that there's no real US organisation who will place American > programmer's résumés in front of many potential employers. > > What are my choices here? I can sign on with a half dozen recruiting firms, > but that poses an ethical problem for me, in that I'll have a bunch working > for me, but only one will be paid for their efforts. I can sign on with a > large consulting company like Keane and trust that the economy doesn't get > me laid off in a year (now that I'm at the bottom of the career ladder. > Again.) It really looks like it is not possible to be an employee with a > steady job (a career even?!) The future seems to be hopping from project to > project (like the contractors do.) But how does a one-man contractor get > his name out there? > > Sign me Bewildered in Albany > --buck > > > > > > > >

[Guest.Visitor]

Joe asked: "I am asking a simple question: how much do you think these people are worth?" I DID state in an earlier post that the 7+ year experienced programmer would command in a range of $65k to $95k. Possibly more if the circumstances were correct. Did you miss that post? Joe then stated (showing that he only reads part of my replies): "You refuse to answer the questions." chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[Guest.Visitor]

Bill wrote: > Chuck is looking for a programmer and is surprised that some people > who have worked at rates higher than what he might pay, or what he > puts at their worth bothered to send in a resume. (I can't tell the > scenario since I haven't seen the advertisement and whether or not > salary was mentioned in the ad). Ah, I've just seen one of his ads and it doesn't mention salary anywhere. So, his 28 years of management experience tells him that someone who recently worked for $95k won't work for $65k for long. A valid presumption back before and during the Y2K era, but again, runs contrary to what he says in other discussions and especially denies the reality of the workplace as he has described it.

[Guest.Visitor]

Bill, > He will hire "American", he just won't hire someone who is willing to take > a drop in salary (which goes directly against his feelings about those out > of work). You are mixing several scenarios that have been discussed: Incorrect. I have no "fixed" salary range. So far, no applicant is higher than my soft limit. > Chuck thinks anyone out of work and complaining about their unemployment is > just being stubborn and not willing to price themselves at market rates. Correct. My motto, get to work, stop complaining! I have no patience for whiners. I've found myself out of work twice since 1999. You never heard a peep out of me trying to blame someone else. I got to work and found a job. I look at it this way. If I'm out of work, my primary job is to find a job. If I can't then I'm poor at my primary job. > Chuck is looking for a programmer and is surprised that some people who > have worked at rates higher than what he might pay, Again incorrect. See above. > or what he puts at their worth bothered to send in a resume. I have only hired senior level programmer positions for AS/400 programming position. Therefore, almost no one is too expensive if they've got the skills to back them up. I HAVE turned away resumes for other positions such as computer support or data entry because they are too expensive. When a person has been making $45/hour for the last 10 years and my computer support position's limit is $20/hour it'd be a waste of both of our time if I proceeded with the interview. > > (I can't tell the scenario since > I haven't seen the advertisement and whether or not salary was mentioned in > the ad). Only government agencies or union jobs publish pay rates in their ads. Others who do are fools. > Many applicants that responded to his ad had "un-American" last names. Incorrect twist of words. What I said, if memory serves, many applicants had names I couldn't pronounce. By definition, most of us, including myself, have an unAmerican last name. But it matters not to me, I don't base my hiring decision on race, creed, sexual orientation or country of origin. THAT would be unAmerican! chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[Guest.Visitor]

Bill, I'd respond but your post isn't lucid. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Bill" <Bill_Robins@mcpressonline.com> wrote in message news:970DB6A16F013E4A33FA3EA769FE97B1@in.WebX.Wawy ahGHajS... > Bill wrote: > > Chuck is looking for a programmer and is surprised that some people > > who have worked at rates higher than what he might pay, or what he > > puts at their worth bothered to send in a resume. (I can't tell the > > scenario since I haven't seen the advertisement and whether or not > > salary was mentioned in the ad). > > Ah, I've just seen one of his ads and it doesn't mention salary anywhere. > So, his 28 years of management experience tells him that someone who > recently worked for $95k won't work for $65k for long. A valid presumption > back before and during the Y2K era, but again, runs contrary to what he > says in other discussions and especially denies the reality of the > workplace as he has described it. > >

[David Abramowitz]

This pretty much echoes what I have been saying: http://www.mcpressonline.com/mc?1@232.1KNKfHX1eQT.17@.6ae61001 that the dearth of IT jobs is platform neutral. In fact the greater the skill set and experience, the more likely it is that you may be found "overqualified". Dave

[J.Pluta]

Chuck: "Therefore, almost no one is too expensive if they've got the skills to back them up." Chuck: "It matters not whether your competition is the guy two doors down from you or 2 continents down. You will, and should, always be compared to anyone else who can complete the same tasks." Chuck: "I DID state in an earlier post that the 7+ year experienced programmer would command in a range of $65k to $95k. Possibly more if the circumstances were correct. Did you miss that post?" Chuck: "If they're willing to cut their salary by 30% (as in my example) it's pretty clear that they are just using me as a parking place." Chuck: "Most of my programmers are being paid at or above the highest numbers we've bantered here in this forum." See, the problem is I can't figure out what you're saying among all the contradictory rhetoric. You also said American workers are overpaid. Yet now you say someone "would command" a salary in the range of $65K-$90K (although I couldn't find that post). You say your programmers get more than that. Are you now saying that American pay scales are correct? That they don't have to compete with the $25/hour expert from Bangalore? Or is it that all your RPG programmers are HTML/ASP experts as well? I don't know, Chuck. I just don't understand your comments. It seems that according to you the only programmer worth his salt is someone who learns technologies like HTML and ASP. Of course, in your world Java is useless, but that's so bizarre as to be unanswerable. As close as I can tell, in your opinion, all programmers should be RPG/HTML/ASP gurus making upwards of $90K. That's about as unrealistic a view as I can imagine. Joe

[Guest.Visitor]

"I don't base my hiring decision on race, creed, sexual orientation or country of origin. THAT would be unAmerican!" Did you leave out age on purpose? I found it interesting that you said you took two jobs at pay cuts, but won't hire me if I consider taking a pay cut for the privilege of working for you. I have never thought that anybody owed me anything. Something I learned when I had hiring responsibilities in another life, tis better to have someone work for you for a short time if that person is a great worker, instead of having someone work for you for a long time if that person is a mediocre worker, unless you are running a mediocre business. Another thing I found interesting is your feelings towards those grocery workers in your state. Reality lesson: In the last year a married couple that I know very well lived thru this: He, took a 35k pay increase. She took a 25k decrease. He has 7 years experience, she has 23 years experience. If they found themselves in California it seems they would both be unemployable.

[Guest.Visitor]

ctiodoe, Get a grip will you? I gave ONE example where a person who made $95 for 10 years applied for a $65k job. Suddenly, many in this forum have leapt to the conclusion that I wouldn't hire someone considering a paycut. A 30% paycut is not logical but that same $95k person would probably do just fine at $85k. It's pretty safe to say that I wouldn't hire people that make oddball leaps in conclusions by quoting a snippet out of context. BTW, I DID accidentally leave out age. But it's a given that in the AS/400 programmer world that if I discriminated on age I wouldn't have ANY candidates. ;) (JK) chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "ctibodoe" <ctibodoe@mcpressonline.com> wrote in message news:6ae8818f.126@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > "I don't base my hiring decision on race, creed, sexual orientation or country of origin. THAT would be unAmerican!" > > Did you leave out age on purpose? > > I found it interesting that you said you took two jobs at pay cuts, but won't hire me if I consider taking a pay cut for the privilege of working for you. > > I have never thought that anybody owed me anything. > > Something I learned when I had hiring responsibilities in another life, tis better to have someone work for you for a short time if that person is a great worker, instead of having someone work for you for a long time if that person is a mediocre worker, unless you are running a mediocre business. > > Another thing I found interesting is your feelings towards those grocery workers in your state. > > Reality lesson: In the last year a married couple that I know very well lived thru this: He, took a 35k pay increase. She took a 25k decrease. He has 7 years experience, she has 23 years experience. If they found themselves in California it seems they would both be unemployable.

[Guest.Visitor]

Joe, I'm beginning to understand why you're having trouble with logic. None of my statements that you quote are contradictory. Here's the bottom line of my comments: Most people who whine are people who have been overpaid for their skills. Once they find themselves unemployed they also discover they can't find another cushy job that will overpay them. This is the entitlement that I have discussed all along. They lose out on new jobs to either better qualified people or lower paid people. I said that if you are competitive and have desirable skills then you will earn what you deserve. I pay people well. But they are ones that deserve it. The whiners and complainers don't get on my staff. Probably the most important skill is attitude. Negative people and those who tend to see grey clouds all the time will have troubles in their career. They either don't last long on a job (you'd be surprised how many resumes I get where a candidate has held 5 or more jobs in the last 10 years) or they end up with a company that doesn't have the guts to fire people. Negativity breeds discontent and it has no place in the workplace. BTW, DO NOT make the leap and claim that I don't tolerate people with different ideas or are willing to state ideas opposite to mine. That is a desirable trait and is completely different than negativity. Negativity is the person that just sits on the sidelines and whines and complains about management and how they have their heads up their butt. This person just wants to spread negativity and is not being constructive, but being destructive. They should find another job where they will be happy but, in reality, they know they can't get the kind of pay they're getting anywhere else. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Joe Pluta" <Joe_Pluta@mcpressonline.com> wrote in message news:6ae8818f.125@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > Chuck: "Therefore, almost no one is too expensive if they've got the skills to back them up." > > Chuck: "It matters not whether your competition is the guy two doors down from you or 2 continents down. You will, and should, always be compared to anyone else who can complete the same tasks." > > Chuck: "I DID state in an earlier post that the 7+ year experienced programmer would command in a range of $65k to $95k. Possibly more if the circumstances were correct. Did you miss that post?" > > Chuck: "If they're willing to cut their salary by 30% (as in my example) it's pretty clear that they are just using me as a parking place." > > Chuck: "Most of my programmers are being paid at or above the highest numbers we've bantered here in this forum." > > See, the problem is I can't figure out what you're saying among all the contradictory rhetoric. You also said American workers are overpaid. Yet now you say someone "would command" a salary in the range of $65K-$90K (although I couldn't find that post). You say your programmers get more than that. Are you now saying that American pay scales are correct? That they don't have to compete with the $25/hour expert from Bangalore? Or is it that all your RPG programmers are HTML/ASP experts as well? > > I don't know, Chuck. I just don't understand your comments. It seems that according to you the only programmer worth his salt is someone who learns technologies like HTML and ASP. Of course, in your world Java is useless, but that's so bizarre as to be unanswerable. > > As close as I can tell, in your opinion, all programmers should be RPG/HTML/ASP gurus making upwards of $90K. That's about as unrealistic a view as I can imagine. > > Joe

[J.Pluta]

"Most people who whine are people who have been overpaid for their skills." This is a statement I can understand, especially if you are careful in the definition of "whine". People who are looking for a return to the heydey of the late 90's where people with questionable skillsets could command six-figure incomes are indeed whiners. However, I want to make sure you understand MY point, which is that, while there are always going to be whiners, that is NOT the only case in today's employment market. Because of the pressures of some of the less scrupulous employment firms, through the abuse of visas and/or outsourcing, the American market is severely depressed, and people who want to work, can't. I'm not saying there wasn't room for an adjustment. We were clearly overpaid for the work we were doing. But many of the people I'm talking to are willing to make that adjustment, but are STILL unable to find work. Incidentally, those adjustments are often 30% or more; someone who was used to making $125/hour consulting is lucky to get $75/hour for similar work. The lesser skills, which were still commanding $75/hour, are now reduced to $40-50/hour. These are paycuts nearing 50%. So don't immediately dismiss someone willing to take a 30% paycut - that's a realistic adjustment based on today's economic conditions. In any event, I agree with you that another skillset is desirable. While you don't like Java, I think Java/JSP is a great secondary skill set. For Microsoft shops, ASP.NET (and the whole .NET family) is a good place to learn. And for everybody in our industry, SQL syntax should be a requirement. Personally, I like Java/JSP because all the tools are available for free, and of course it's IBM's direction. You have your own preferred skillset. But don't immediately write off everyone concerned about the visa/outsourcing situation as "whiners". There are legitimate concerns, and they need to be addressed. At the same time, those who are unemployed must consider advancing their skillsets on their own time, and those that don't are going to necessarily find themselves with much more limited employment options. Joe

[buck.calabro@commsoft.net]

Chuck wrote: > Or, you can just look at Monster.com. I advertised for a senior > programmer/analyst a month ago in Monster and the L.A. Times. > I have not, and probably will not, entertain any offers from head hunters. Yeah, I'm on their mail alert system, trying to keep my finger on the pulse of the job market. I honestly can't say I recall seeing your advert, but perhaps my search criteria aren't right. While I agree that internet sites are better than nothing, there are still too many of them. And, just as you don't deal with head hunters, there are plenty of places which don't deal with the web, alas. > I got about 80 resumes in the first week and feel there was > enough good talent there from which to choose. > > I got resumes from all over the country, even all over the world. Surely, > this is something that you should be able to access in Albany. I'm not railing against anyone, especially someone who is actually hiring programmers now - good on you, I say! I'm not against Monster or Dice dot com, I just think there isn't an effort on the part of American programmers to network with each other and with potential employers. I believe that overseas programmers DO have a network they can rely on, and that is one reason they can find jobs. Another reason is the obvious willingness to relocate anywhere. There are plenty of Indian programmers in Singapore, for example. It has been an interesting thread. I read and post through the news group interface, so apparently my ID is somehow masked, or defaults that way in the forum. Sorry for that... I'll need to check my settings on the MC Press web site. --buck calabro

[Guest.Visitor]

What is a person supposed to do with an illogical 30%plus swing in employment offer, when the alternative is unemployment or career change or relocation. What is more logical? To write someone off because of falling into a % bucket, you are probably missing out on some great people. Not trying to be mean spirited, just trying to understand the thinking on the other side of the table. Supply and demand determine salaries and that seems pretty logical. It also seems pretty logical to accept a job at what the market determines at that particular time. Then when the market changes and the employer doesn't, then it seems logical being a logical business participant, to change with the market when your employer doesn't, after all isn't that the way he plays his business. So I still have a lack of understanding about your 30% bucket. I don't understand how you think taking your comment about not considering someone who had a 30% swing in compensation is an oddball leap and not a logical conclusion about your hiring practices, when the person who takes the pay cut or pay increase has logic on his side when he has bills to pay. Age discrimination has affected my situation more than once, I was just curious why you left it out, as it is probably the first one many of us are experiencing. You have had 3 employers since 98, I believe? Does that make you a job hopper? Then the number of employers I have had shouldn't automatically, logically make me one either. Maybe another hiring manager out there will read some of this and at least look a little harder at some of the good people out there who haven't had logical career paths. In today's world, what in the heck is a logical career path. Chuck,I enjoy reading your opinions, even when opposite of mine. And great article Joe, let's enforce our borders, and never stop legal immigration, as I am a result of past immigration. I'm betting not too many of you could pronounce my last name, much less spell it.

[Guest.Visitor]

Joe said: "Because of the pressures of some of the less scrupulous employment firms, through the abuse of visas and/or outsourcing, the American market is severely depressed, and people who want to work, can't." Point well taken. However, I don't agree with the American market being "severely depressed." Employment rates are under 6.5% last I looked and if you look over the last century that's pretty good. Much better than the 70's when, as a kid fresh out of college, I felt I took a wrong turn when I studied computer science. My first fixed rate home mortgage was over 13% and I was thrilled that the rate had just come down. That was depressing! Joe also said: "someone who was used to making $125/hour consulting is lucky to get $75/hour for similar work." There are a couple of comments I can make here. Often, many consultants don't like the everyday grind of an employee's job, they like the excitement of moving from project to project. With that in mind, many employers don't seriously consider those who have been in consulting for many years as candidates for an employee job. Sad, but true. Also, if someone has been making $125/hour that translates into over $250k/year. Yeah, I know, that person may not have worked a total of 2080 hours, but that's the quick math an employer will do when looking at a salary history. So, it'd be a big leap to hire that person for a $90k job. Joe stated: "Personally, I like Java/JSP because all the tools are available for free, and of course it's IBM's direction. You have your own preferred skillset." I tend to shy away from IBM's direction. It can change in a whim. They pushed very hard in the 80s for Topview. Then they abandoned Topview and pushed OS/2 even harder. I've been burned too many times by IBM's 180 degree switches to throw all of my eggs in their basket. I DO know one thing. If you look anywhere for employment opportunities you'll see many more for ASP and .NET than for Java or JSP. Joe suggested: "But don't immediately write off everyone concerned about the visa/outsourcing situation as "whiners". There are legitimate concerns, and they need to be addressed." I tend to ignore those things that I have little control over. It's like the guy that sits in the back of the meeting just complaining and not being productive. Other than write my elected officials and not hire visa candidates there's not much I can do. I'm not going to complain about it to others. Joe said: "At the same time, those who are unemployed must consider advancing their skillsets on their own time, and those that don't are going to necessarily find themselves with much more limited employment options." Well said. I would add that those that don't are foolish daydreamers. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[J.Pluta]

The thing I really enjoy about the forum here is its civility. Even though the conversations can get heated, as they did in this obviously touchy subject, I've seen over and over again that the conversation usually gets back on-track. This is a far cry from some of the other forums on the net. I won't try to guess what it is that makes the MCMagOnline readership different (that could in itself cause another ruckus <grin>) but I am glad for whatever it is. Joe

[dchristie]

ctibodoe, By closing borders, does that mean US workers not coming into Canada to take Canadian jobs?

[Guest.Visitor]

Ok, Just my opinion. Enforcing Borders: Enforce existing laws, eliminate temporary visa games. I don't believe I said close any borders. I do not, and stated I do not believe in stopping immigration. I do believe in trying to change some of the visa games that are being abused, and I believe it has been stated enough that everyone who is following this knows which ones are being abused. Joe, isn't this what you have been talking about? Visa's should exist to allow special circumstances to be accomodated. If I am the only person that can do 'X' and Canada needs 'X' done, then Canada should be able to utilize me. But if there are alot of 'X' doers who exist in Canada, I should not be allowed to go to Canada and get that project for less money. And if David is the only one who can do 'Y' and USA needs 'Y' done, then USA should be able to utilize David. Not to put any Citizens at a disadvantage in whatever country it is. Because, I believe that the Country belongs to the Citizens. What is infuriating about this is, this is being done to us by our tax paid elected officials. Does Canada play the same games? Is this really a problem for Canada? So if US workers are doing some of this, stop em.

[J.Pluta]

"Joe, isn't this what you have been talking about?" Despite the heat and light the conversation generated, that was indeed my primary point: it's not foreign labor (or laborers) that I have a problem with, it's the abuse of the policies. The visas are a sham and have been almost from day one. The outsourcing issue, which was a small part of my article but yet the one that caused the greatest hue and cry, was less my focus. However, subsequent research has showed that this is a problem as well; while the outsourcing firms and employees insist they are capable of generating quality product, there are still issues of the widespread use of complete newbies as well as a more disturbing trend that condones or at least turns a blind eye to lying on resumes. Whatever the truth of these copmlaints, the end result is that we keep hearing of outsourced projects that actually cost more than they would have in house. Again and again I ask for examples of successful outsourced projects in the midrange industry, and I have yet to hear of one. And still IT management insists that this is an intelligent option. It's almost like the Extreme Programming movement, where they claim the gigantic Chrysler C3 project as a victory, yet it was over budget, over schedule, only one third finished, and then completely scrapped. As far as I can tell, at least in our industry, the Outsourcing Emperor is buck naked. Joe

[J.Pluta]

"I DO know one thing. If you look anywhere for employment opportunities you'll see many more for ASP and .NET than for Java or JSP." Monster.com For Chicago: ASP OR .NET: 152 jobs, Java or JSP: 221 jobs San Francisco: ASP or .NET: 55 jobs, Java or JSP: 112 jobs Dice.com: For Illinois: ASP or .NET: 162 jobs, Java or JSP: 181 jobs California: ASP or .NET: 873 jobs, Java or JSP: 984 jobs Just a quick scan. Joe

[Guest.Visitor]

ctibodoe, I was talking purely hypothetical. Most of the candidates I see are at the high end of the range. I don't have a low end opening and seldom do. In fact, it's been over 10 years that I hired anyone at the low (junior) level So, in practicality, it's not an issue for me. There are a lot of things that go into the thinking from "the other side of the table" as you put it. Many things go into just getting an interview. For example, if the person doesn't send a cover email with their resume they're are bumped down a notch. I may be old fashioned, but there are certain protocols that tell me something about the candidate. If I get 100 resumes for a position, and sometimes I get 200+, it can take many days of my time to go through them all. I have a system where, when I receive a resume, I place it into one of three categories: "Not likely", "Likely", or "Very Likely". My first set of interviews will come from the "very likely" pile. There are a number of things that I look for that place the person into one of those 3 categories. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "ctibodoe" <ctibodoe@mcpressonline.com> wrote in message news:6ae8818f.131@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > What is a person supposed to do with an illogical 30%plus swing in employment offer, when the alternative is unemployment or career change or relocation. What is more logical? To write someone off because of falling into a % bucket, you are probably missing out on some great people. Not trying to be mean spirited, just trying to understand the thinking on the other side of the table. Supply and demand determine salaries and that seems pretty logical. It also seems pretty logical to accept a job at what the market determines at that particular time. Then when the market changes and the employer doesn't, then it seems logical being a logical business participant, to change with the market when your employer doesn't, after all isn't that the way he plays his business. So I still have a lack of understanding about your 30% bucket. > > I don't understand how you think taking your comment about not considering someone who had a 30% swing in compensation is an oddball leap and not a logical conclusion about your hiring practices, when the person who takes the pay cut or pay increase has logic on his side when he has bills to pay. > > Age discrimination has affected my situation more than once, I was just curious why you left it out, as it is probably the first one many of us are experiencing. > > You have had 3 employers since 98, I believe? Does that make you a job hopper? Then the number of employers I have had shouldn't automatically, logically make me one either. > > Maybe another hiring manager out there will read some of this and at least look a little harder at some of the good people out there who haven't had logical career paths. In today's world, what in the heck is a logical career path. > > Chuck,I enjoy reading your opinions, even when opposite of mine. > > And great article Joe, let's enforce our borders, and never stop legal immigration, as I am a result of past immigration. I'm betting not too many of you could pronounce my last name, much less spell it.

[Guest.Visitor]

Agreed. It may be also because we don't have any 20-something programmers here. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Joe Pluta" <Joe_Pluta@mcpressonline.com> wrote in message news:6ae8818f.132@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > The thing I really enjoy about the forum here is its civility. Even though the conversations can get heated, as they did in this obviously touchy subject, I've seen over and over again that the conversation usually gets back on-track. This is a far cry from some of the other forums on the net. > > I won't try to guess what it is that makes the MCMagOnline readership different (that could in itself cause another ruckus <grin>) but I am glad for whatever it is. > > Joe

[Guest.Visitor]

ctibodoe, Then you should be thrilled that Arnold was elected as governor of California. Had he not, we'd have millions of illegal aliens with California drivers licenses starting in January. Imagine the havoc that would have created. Suddenly, the drivers license would no longer be accepted anywhere as proof of ID. The borders would be wide open and we'd be flooded with people here without visas. I think it would have dramatically change a lot of things including travel. Fortunately, the California legislature came to their senses and UNANIMOUSLY overturned a law they put into place 2 months ago. Damn politicians. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "ctibodoe" <ctibodoe@mcpressonline.com> wrote in message news:6ae8818f.134@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > Ok, Just my opinion. Enforcing Borders: Enforce existing laws, eliminate temporary visa games. I don't believe I said close any borders. > I do not, and stated I do not believe in stopping immigration. I do believe in trying to change some of the visa games that are being abused, and I believe it has been stated enough that everyone who is following this knows which ones are being abused. > > Joe, isn't this what you have been talking about? > > Visa's should exist to allow special circumstances to be accomodated. If I am the only person that can do 'X' and Canada needs 'X' done, then Canada should be able to utilize me. But if there are alot of 'X' doers who exist in Canada, I should not be allowed to go to Canada and get that project for less money. And if David is the only one who can do 'Y' and USA needs 'Y' done, then USA should be able to utilize David. Not to put any Citizens at a disadvantage in whatever country it is. Because, I believe that the Country belongs to the Citizens. What is infuriating about this is, this is being done to us by our tax paid elected officials. > > Does Canada play the same games? Is this really a problem for Canada? So if US workers are doing some of this, stop em.

[Guest.Visitor]

Joe asked: "Again and again I ask for examples of successful outsourced projects in the midrange industry, and I have yet to hear of one. " We have completed a hugely successful outsourcing of our EDI initiative. A third party company called SPS, handles all of our EDI trading partners for our domestic vendors. Wildly successful. We're about to embark on a similar but broader initiative with Avery Dennison for our Asian vendors. I expect it to be just as successful. We couldn't possibly have done either of these projects with our limited internal resources. So, you can no longer claim you haven't heard of a successful outsourcing project. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[J.Pluta]

SPS is a local outsourcing outfit. Since the entire thread, over 100 messages, was about offshore outsourcing, reasonable people would assume that I was referring to offshore outsourcing without me having to explicitly state it. I will CONTINUE to state that I have yet to hear of a successful offshore outsourcing project in our industry. And just in case I wasn't entirely clear on THIS point: I am looking for outsourcing projects that replace local developers at a reduced cost. This thread is not about using outsourcing to supplement your existing staff, it is about replacing existing American workers with offshore resources in order to reduce costs. Cripes. Joe

[Guest.Visitor]

Sounds like there's a lot of employment opportunities out there, eh? chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Joe Pluta" <Joe_Pluta@mcpressonline.com> wrote in message news:6ae8818f.139@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > "I DO know one thing. If you look anywhere for employment opportunities you'll see many more for ASP and .NET than for Java or JSP." > > Monster.com > For Chicago: ASP OR .NET: 152 jobs, Java or JSP: 221 jobs > San Francisco: ASP or .NET: 55 jobs, Java or JSP: 112 jobs > > Dice.com: > For Illinois: ASP or .NET: 162 jobs, Java or JSP: 181 jobs > California: ASP or .NET: 873 jobs, Java or JSP: 984 jobs > > Just a quick scan. > > Joe

[J.Pluta]

"Sounds like there's a lot of employment opportunities out there, eh?" Well, considering you were dead wrong in your other assertion, let's see how this one stacks up: There are 5000 ASP/.NET jobs nationwide on Monster. Extrapolate that to perhaps 8000 Java/JSP jobs, and there are perhaps 13000 jobs in what are arguably the two major technology sectors. Toss in another 2000 VB jobs, and you've got a whopping 15000 openings. You can play with the numbers if you want, double, triple them even, but let's just go with the 15000 openings on Monster. There are currently over 300,000 H-1B visa holders in this country, and many more L-1 visa holders. That means there are hundreds of thousands of displaced IT workers. 15000 jobs doesn't seem like such a big number measured against that figure, does it? Add to it this fact: there is a current ANNUAL quota of 65,000 more H-1B visas alone. That's four times the total number of jobs. Or let's look at it this way: there are about 3,000,000 IT workers in this country (DOL statistics). At 6.5% unemployment, that means there are roughly 200,000 people looking for jobs, and yet we're bringing in tens of thousands of other workers as well as reducing jobs through offshore outsourcing. Does it still seem like there's a lot of employment opportunities? Joe

[Guest.Visitor]

Joe, Ok, had I hired 10 programmers to do the EDI effort and then FIRED them to use SPS (which, by the way, is not a local outfit as you suggest) then I would have satisfied your definition. Ok, maybe because SPS is domestic (is that what you meant by local?) then let's look at my Avery Dennison solution. I could hire 10 programmers to do my EDI effort, then fire them and give the job to Avery in China. Would that satisfy your definition? Must I fire people first? Or does the fact that I use an outsource outfit, one in China, before I hire people fit into your definition? Note, however, that I am outsourcing to get resources and expertise that we don't have in house. I could certainly find those resources, but I couldn't do it cheaper than my outsourcing vendors are doing it. Cripes. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Joe Pluta" <Joe_Pluta@mcpressonline.com> wrote in message news:6ae8818f.142@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > SPS is a local outsourcing outfit. Since the entire thread, over 100 messages, was about offshore outsourcing, reasonable people would assume that I was referring to offshore outsourcing without me having to explicitly state it. > > I will CONTINUE to state that I have yet to hear of a successful offshore outsourcing project in our industry. > > And just in case I wasn't entirely clear on THIS point: I am looking for outsourcing projects that replace local developers at a reduced cost. This thread is not about using outsourcing to supplement your existing staff, it is about replacing existing American workers with offshore resources in order to reduce costs. > > Cripes. > > Joe

[J.Pluta]

By local, I meant American, i.e. domestic. Yes, you would have to displace existing workers to fit the definition of the problem I'm addressing. If you choose not to expand your workforce and instead use an outsourcing firm, that's a different issue. It's related, of course, but it's not quite the same thing. The problem with what you're doing is that you're assuming they're cheaper than doing it in-house. I'm sure you did some sort of cost estimate, but without actual numbers we can't compare apples to apples here. That's the primary reason I'm trying to find an outsourcing project that replaced in-house staff, in order to compare the before and after costs in real dollars. Joe

[dchristie]

Sorry it was enforcing, not closing... "Does Canada play the same games?" Of course. "Is this really a problem for Canada?" No. We can go work elsewhere, in the US if we have to. "So if US workers are doing some of this, stop em." No. We will increase our efforts to compete and convince business leaders here of our abilities. If that doesn't work, then another carreer is in order. The point I was trying to make is that the tone of this discussion seems to be that only North America has the right to go for the golden dream, and we are the only victims. Why shouldn't other countries go for it? We wouldn't think twice about taking jobs from them if it meant increasing the bottom line here. Enough negative. Lets offer some solutions: When you do not agree with a companies business practice: 1) Stop investing (stocks) in the company. 2) Stop buying product and services from the company. If you work for a company which will outsource: 1) Train the new consultants, show management your team leadership skills. If they do not keep you, then it's their lost. The above will probably not solve the problem, but will let you sleep at night. Thanks Dave

[J.Pluta]

"When you do not agree with a companies business practice:" It's not the companies, Dave, it's the Congressional programs that encourage the abuse of cheap foreign labor. Once those programs have been abolished, then we'll be playing on a level playing field once again.

[David Abramowitz]

Joe, I'd like to refine your position if I may: H1-B should be abolished at this point. There is no longer a logical basis from any perspective for the existance of H1-B. L-1 needs to stick around in order to avoid counter measures from other countries but. . . . The entire L-1 program has to be rewritten and refined in order to avoid loopholes, and abuses that occur today. To me the most obvious reform is that the L-1 holder may only perform services for the employing company. The corollary is that the employing company may not contract out the services of the L-1 holder to another company. If congress were to amend L-1 in this fashion, it would still permit a company to import its own foreign employees for any purpose. This was the original function and purpose of the L-1 program. The spirit of the law would remain intact, and the abuses should be eliminated. (Abusers are a clever lot, and might think of something else). This reform would also put us on equal footing with other countries. When I speak to politicos, or staffers, I find sympathetic ears with this approach. I would recomend to all posters in this thread that instead of writing another post to this thread.... Write to your congressperson instead! All that's can be said... in this thread... has already been said! The thread gives me a pain in the head, which I dread... This thread should be dead... Dave

[dchristie]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Congress lobbied by business to implement these programs?

[David Abramowitz]

You are correct, but incomplete. Legislators will always listen to their constituents. If there is enough of a grass root effort it is very unlikely that a lobbyist with an oppositional viewpoint will prevail. A legislator who forgets the role of "servant of the people" will more than likely not remain in office very long. The problem with politicos is in reality a problem with people who either feel disenfranchised, and do not speak up, or are too lazy or apathetic to speak up. In the vacuum comes the lobbyists. If there is no constituent opposition, and if the lobbyists propsoal does not conflict with the concience of the congressman (yes, they actually do have them) then the lobbyist will win out. Dave

[Guest.Visitor]

Joe, If you know anything about outsourcing EDI then you KNOW it's cheaper to do it outside. Much of the cost is borne by the vendor. It's considerably cheaper to outsource EDI. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Joe Pluta" <Joe_Pluta@mcpressonline.com> wrote in message news:6ae8818f.146@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > By local, I meant American, i.e. domestic. > > Yes, you would have to displace existing workers to fit the definition of the problem I'm addressing. If you choose not to expand your workforce and instead use an outsourcing firm, that's a different issue. It's related, of course, but it's not quite the same thing. > > The problem with what you're doing is that you're assuming they're cheaper than doing it in-house. I'm sure you did some sort of cost estimate, but without actual numbers we can't compare apples to apples here. That's the primary reason I'm trying to find an outsourcing project that replaced in-house staff, in order to compare the before and after costs in real dollars. > > Joe

[Guest.Visitor]

David said: "If you work for a company which will outsource: 1) Train the new consultants, show management your team leadership skills. If they do not keep you, then it's their lost." I also think we should go beyond the generalizations also. The term outsourcing has been used here in such generic terms as to make it a negative option. Outsourcing can be very good for many reasons. For example, we have retail stores in many states. All of them have at least 14 PCs. There is also a network, routers, broadband connection, etc. in each store. We have only 8 PC support personnel to manage all of the corporate computers including the retail stores. About 2000 PCs in all. We can't possibly cover all of these computers in many states with only 8 people. So, we outsource. Any store that we can't service for routine calls by a daytime drive from the home office is serviced by PC Medic. They do a yoeman's job and they're not employees of our company. By definition, it's an outsource. I realize that in this thread when we referring to outsourcing we're mostly talking about off shore outsourcing. So, let's not generalize and be specific. (After all, the BCS football rankings have everyone losing faith in computers. That's a generalization that grates on my nerves!) chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[J.Pluta]

"If you know anything about outsourcing EDI then you KNOW it's cheaper to do it outside. Much of the cost is borne by the vendor. It's considerably cheaper to outsource EDI." I'll take your word for it. But that's not really a development project, per se, then. It's more of a service, like payroll. There's programming involved, I'm sure, but it's not quite the same thing. Joe

[Guest.Visitor]

Joe, The Avery solution in China is a completely custom solution requiring lots of development and programming by Avery. 4 of us just spent 3 days in Boston with the Avery development team. I'm not sure what your definition of outsourcing is, it seems to be a moving target. By industry standards, anything that could be done in house but isn't, is considered outsourcing. Certainly when we use ADP for payroll I would consider that an outsourced solution. When we have our PCs serviced by a third party vendor it is outsourcing. When we have a third party write an application that we can't get done quickly enough or don't have enough available in-house resources to do, that is considered outsourcing. Are you then claiming to redefine the term outsourcing? chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Joe Pluta" <Joe_Pluta@mcpressonline.com> wrote in message news:6ae8818f.155@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > "If you know anything about outsourcing EDI then you KNOW it's cheaper to do it outside. Much of the cost is borne by the vendor. It's considerably cheaper to outsource EDI." > > I'll take your word for it. But that's not really a development project, per se, then. It's more of a service, like payroll. There's programming involved, I'm sure, but it's not quite the same thing. > > Joe

[GlenKerner]

David you may be right...programmers in SoCal may earn 65K and up. But when I was there 5 yrs ago 65K-70K was the average but the cost of a home was in the 500K-1mil range. So in comparison the 65K-105K really doesn't mean they can afford the motorhome, any suv, or any extra's. The house payment alone takes most of that. I know there are area's in this country that pay more and pay less. SoCal seems to always pay more because everything (and I do mean everything) is so expensive. Outlandishly expensive. I live in E. Texas now and I can buy a home with 10 acres of land and only spend 90K....you do that in SoCAL and you will be spending 10-20 mil. Now if you want to pay me the 105K and let me work from here....I'm your man.....LOL

[Guest.Visitor]

Glen, Generalizations are dangerous. My home value is over $850k yet my house payment is less than the first home I owned in 1980 which cost only $150k. Also stating that "everything is so expensive" is just plain wrong. So Cal is one of the cheapest areas for electronics, cars, fresh produce, most groceries, and any other product that reduces price by volume. I will guarantee you a car dealer that sells 3,000 cars a month, like Longo Toyota does, can make much better deals than a dealer in South Bend, Indiana that sells 15 cars a month. Almost every commodity in So Cal is cheaper than most other places in the country. One item that is NOT cheap are housing. But housing should be treated as an investment. I invested $30k of my own equity in 1980 in a house and now have about $700k of equity. Pretty good return. Probably better than most areas of the country. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Glen Kerner" <Glen_Kerner@mcpressonline.com> wrote in message news:6ae8818f.157@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > David you may be right...programmers in SoCal may earn 65K and up. But when I was there 5 yrs ago 65K-70K was the average but the cost of a home was in the 500K-1mil range. > > So in comparison the 65K-105K really doesn't mean they can afford the motorhome, any suv, or any extra's. The house payment alone takes most of that. > > I know there are area's in this country that pay more and pay less. SoCal seems to always pay more because everything (and I do mean everything) is so expensive. Outlandishly expensive. I live in E. Texas now and I can buy a home with 10 acres of land and only spend 90K....you do that in SoCAL and you will be spending 10-20 mil. > > Now if you want to pay me the 105K and let me work from here....I'm your man.....LOL

[Guest.Visitor]

Glen said: "I live in E. Texas now and I can buy a home with 10 acres of land and only spend 90K" One thing that is for sure in real estate: you get what you pay for! chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[J.Pluta]

"Are you then claiming to redefine the term outsourcing?" No, I just don't mean the same thing you do, Chuck. Payroll and PC maintenance are not the issues I'm interested in, nor were they the focus of my article. I was focusing on American midrange developers losing their jobs to offshore outsourcing firms or visa employees. The EDI project as you explain it is a combination of progamming and EDI-specific services, many of which the vendor, since they are an EDI specialist, can provide more cheaply. This is similar to payroll, and doesn't fall into the same category as general application programming. You may not understand my distinction, but since you're the only one insisting on arguing the point, I can comfortably agree to disagree with you. Joe

[Guest.Visitor]

I do not know if the writer is american or of any other nationality, but there are some of his points which i couldn't overlook including the satirical cartoon. Please check this web - page. http://maddox.xmission.com/c.cgi?u=walmart http://maddox.xmission.com/c.cgi?u=walmart No, I do not have language of this order but again, it is not the language (how he is trying to say it) but what he is trying to say that caught my attention. I may not agree with all his points and my employer has nothing to do with anything of this. Thanks and Regards, Kaushik.

[Guest.Visitor]

I need to buy vegetables and my local market sells them at around $10 dollars for my week's needs. Hmm.. there is this market in the suburbs where I can buy it all for around $2. Hey, but I cannot do it. The local market guys are getting angry. Since they won't budge from the place or reduce their prices, probably I'd have to shift residence to the suburbs to justify myself???

[Guest.Visitor]

yes, there will be a time when we, with our then higher standards and higher pays, will be bypassed for cheaper locations. It is all a part of life. How well we better the quality of our products till then is what will decide our fate in the race. It IS a race. Obviously, there is a quality AQ and a price AP. There is quality BQ and price BP. As of now, AQ may be les than BQ but AP is much lesser than BP to make outsourcers consider company A over company B.

[Guest.Visitor]

CDR9003, Your comments below are well thought out and appear to be gained from experience. I will add that the way to make yourself indispensable is to be creative, solve problems without being a problem, and make sure your solutions work flawlessly. Be fastidious about your work. If you put a new job into production and it runs at 1am then sign on from home at 1am to see if it works properly. Also, be helpful to your peers and fellow workers. Above all, and this is the MOST important trait, have good customer service skills. Always be courteous and have a sympathetic ear to the end users. Remember this: The only reason you are employed as a programmer is to serve others. If you aren't serving others, or the perception is that you aren't serving them, then you will become dispensable. To make yourself DISPENSABLE, be secretive, be political, be rude to others at the company, make sure you are the only one that knows how to solve specific problems. No manager wants to be held hostage. Good managers want solutions, not political headaches. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "CDR9003" <CDR9003@mcpressonline.com> wrote in message news:6ae8818f.164@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > The best way to avoid losing your job to outsourcing is to do your job well. > > Don't force your will on others by telling them they must conform to some minutia that is the coder or design fad of the moment. > > Don't write slop and then use debug to try to figure out why it doesn't work. > > Don't manage in such a way that you are the tail wagging the dog. > > Don't frown on people who look things up, assuming thay already have basic skills. > > Do ask yourself, 'How can this be done better and how can I make myself less indispensible?'

[Guest.Visitor]

kausix, What are you saying? I sense an analogy, but the context didn't quite make it lucid. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "kausix" <kausix@mcpressonline.com> wrote in message news:6ae8818f.162@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > I need to buy vegetables and my local market sells them at around $10 dollars for my week's needs. > > Hmm.. there is this market in the suburbs where I can buy it all for around $2. > > Hey, but I cannot do it. The local market guys are getting angry. Since they won't budge from the place or reduce their prices, probably I'd have to shift residence to the suburbs to justify myself???

[Guest.Visitor]

And neither one of you get the point Joe has been trying to make. There are companies that are outsourcing their IT needs overseas purely as a means to reduce costs. To generalize that the employees that have lost their jobs because of a personlaity conflict or a reduced set of skills does not apply in these circumstances. A prime example would be the relocation of Dell's Technical Support to India. Are you really going to try and say that the people in Texas lost their jobs because the personnel India could provide were better technologically? Or that they had better customer service skills? I would hope not. The answer it was moved was to reduce costs. And this move backfired on Dell when their Corporate Customers complained that the service received from the Indian's was substandard and totally not acceptable. Bill

[Guest.Visitor]

Sanity does exist. Good points Bill. Outsourcing is not necesarily bad. That is a good thing because I am a contractor (US citizen)(outsourced) that is working on part of a large (in house) project for a large multinational corp. And in this case it made sense for them to bring me in to utilize specific skills(ILE) I have and mentor the inhouse staff. So, all outsourcing is not bad. Nor, do I say that my circumstance is the only instance of outsourcing being good. Had this corp outsourced the whole shop to a company that used domestic or foreign (legal) workers that were not abusing any laws, that would be okay too. If this corp used illegals either outsourced or internally on visas, or intentionally, grossly abused exitsting laws that harm (legal) (tax paying) citizens and their right to the pursuit of happiness in the form of gaining legal employment....then that is bad. Shame on the Corps that do it, and shame on the politicians that write laws that abuse the citizens of any country. And shame on the citizens that think is is negative to try to bring to light wrongs that only will hurt 'all' of us in the long run. Intelligent, thoughtful conversation is not negative or whining, it is often the beginning of something good... I believe in the marketplace. With no Buts, if everyone is playing by the rules.

[Guest.Visitor]

Bill said: "There are companies that are outsourcing their IT needs overseas purely as a means to reduce costs." Which is, of course, is a generalization. I know that corporate decision making is never that simple. More from Bill:"To generalize that the employees that have lost their jobs because of a personlaity conflict or a reduced set of skills does not apply in these circumstances. A prime example would be the relocation of Dell's Technical Support to India." A statement that, in itself, is a generalization. There's simply no way for us to know what factors were involved in Dell's decision. Were you in the decision making meetings? Bill asked:"Are you really going to try and say that the people in Texas lost their jobs because the personnel India could provide were better technologically? Or that they had better customer service skills?" I can't possibly say. I'm not naive enough to speculate on Dell's decison making process. I know, from many years experience in top level management, that these decisions are generally not snap judgements. My experience in such matters is that they are debated heavily over a period of time. The good companies look objectively at all of the pros and cons to the issue and do what appears to be in the best interest of the company. Everything I know about Dell implies they are a good company. I do spend over $1million a year with Dell and wouldn't do so if I didn't think they are on the right track. Bill also said: "The answer it was moved was to reduce costs." Well, duh. There's huge pressure from stakeholders to always reduce costs. Bill added: "And this move backfired on Dell when their Corporate Customers complained that the service received from the Indian's was substandard and totally not acceptable." All decisions have a risk factor. BTW, we are a reasonably large corporate customer of Dell and have no complaints regarding service. Beware of generalizations about companies that you read in the trade mags or on web sites. Often the trades take one or two examples and write an article implying, or letting you leap to the conclusion, that those examples represent the norm. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[Guest.Visitor]

http://www.fortune.com/fortune/technology/articles/0,15114,558743,00.html

[buck.calabro@commsoft.net]

I used to believe that if I was the best at my job I would be safe from outsourcing or downsizing. I no longer operate under that misconception. I very much feel that the cost of being a senior staffer works against me because it is very easy to see in a ledger, whereas the benefit of being a skilled senior staffer is much less apparent to those trying to balance the budget. So yes, be the best you can, but don't expect that will be a guarantee against being outsourced. Especially if you are experienced (and therefore at the top of the pay grade.) --buck calabro

[Guest.Visitor]

Buck said: "So yes, be the best you can, but don't expect that will be a guarantee against being outsourced. Especially if you are experienced (and therefore at the top of the pay grade.)" Words to live by. There are no guarantees in this world. Even carefully picked employers can, and probably will, eventually turn sour. I've had that happen to me. However, my philosophy is to work hard and treat the company as if it were my last. But, don't be surprised, or too disappointed, if it isn't. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[dacust]

This goes back to what I was saying earlier. It is our job as individuals to be aware of the world around us and direct our careers towards paths that will be marketable. Of course it is also our job to point out the error of managements ways when they pick outsourcing just because it looks cheaper in the shorty run. And to talk to our representatives about our views on visas, etc. But ultimatly, our lives are strictly up to us. If the game is not fair, and if we cannot find a way to change the rules to be fair, then we have to find ways to play by those unfair rules. Develop multiple skills. I have been practicing saying "Welcome to Wal-Mart, would you like a buggy?". My friends say I'm getting pretty good. -dan

[Guest.Visitor]

Daniel, Your points are well taken. I have 3 daughters ages 14, 17 and 19. Since they were little children whenever they didn't like the events and whined, "that isn't fair," my retort was, "life isn't fair, get used to it." I believe that if you expect everything to be fair then you will live an unhappy life. However, I have balanced training with the ability to understand that they must speak up when something is plain wrong. Like the time last year that my 16 year old was accused of "academic dishonesty" (the current euphemism for cheating) when she didn't do it. We encouraged her to take this to the dean of students to have her record expunged. She did and everything worked out. (Funny thing, once the principal heard about her case he also encouraged her. Turns out the teacher has done this before and they need to have more evidence to be able to discipline him. Tenure and unions have really tied the hands of school administrators these days.) So, my advice to one and all, life isn't fair get used to it. You will be much happier for it. And, after all, isn't that our ultimate goal? chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Daniel Stephens" <Daniel_Stephens@mcpressonline.com> wrote in message news:6ae8818f.174@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > This goes back to what I was saying earlier. It is our job as individuals to be aware of the world around us and direct our careers towards paths that will be marketable. > > Of course it is also our job to point out the error of managements ways when they pick outsourcing just because it looks cheaper in the shorty run. And to talk to our representatives about our views on visas, etc. > > But ultimatly, our lives are strictly up to us. If the game is not fair, and if we cannot find a way to change the rules to be fair, then we have to find ways to play by those unfair rules. Develop multiple skills. I have been practicing saying "Welcome to Wal-Mart, would you like a buggy?". My friends say I'm getting pretty good. > > -dan

[Guest.Visitor]

Joe Pluta wrote: > And so I ask again - are there any examples of large-scale projects > that have been outsourced that have worked? I'd be interested to see > if any have completed recently, and if so, if they were on time and > on budget. My guess based on the anecdotal evidence and the things I > see in the mailing lists is that the majority are not. Joe, This might fit your criteria: http://www.kana.com/newsevents/pressrelease/press_pop.aspx?bottomurl=2003_0922_kana.aspx or http://tinyurl.com/2tx72 I read a little about this in the InfoWorld 12/22 Tech Watch article. Kana has farmed out some/most of its work on the IQ 8 package to India and is very happy with the results. Bill

[dacust]

If I read that correctly, Kana is a US/India company that is in the business of selling help desk products. Hmmmmm, is this really a good example of a success? An India Help Desk company?

[Guest.Visitor]

Daniel Stephens wrote: > If I read that correctly, Kana is a US/India company that is in the > business of selling help desk products. Hmmmmm, is this really a good > example of a success? An India Help Desk company? Are you referring to " By combining the vertical expertise of Accenture U.S. and India with faster and more accurate . . ."? To me this means they are using a US/India company by the name of Accenture. Bill

[J.Pluta]

It fits some of the criteria, I guess. But I wouldn't call it a poster child for large scale development, especially in the midrange sector. First, it's not midrange, it's J2EE and .NET. If you're going to use bad technologies, I suppose India is as good a place as any to get them. Second, it's not exactly a large business application suite like ERP. The outsourced bit is primarily an email response package. I don't know how much code was actually written in India, and from what I can tell the code written was more of a tool than an application. Finally, the company isn't exactly what you call a financial powerhouse. Two years ago they announced a 1 for 10 split. At the height of the dot-com bubble, the stock was selling for 300 times what it is today. They're still operating at a loss of nearly $4 million a quarter. Their income for the first three months of 2003 is about half the same period in 2002, and the CFO just sold over half of his holdings, bringing his stake down to a paltry 10K shares. So, what's the final answer? Well, if you're saying that moving to India can help a small software company bleed out a little slower, you're probably right. But if you're using this as a testimonial for outsourcing, I'd say you might need to set your sights a little higher. Joe

[J.Pluta]

And in case we've all already forgotten the dead - Accenture is the renamed version of Arthur Andersen's consulting group. Joe

[dacust]

I stand corrected. Kana is a California company. The main point of what I was saying was that what they are selling is Kana IQ 8 which appears to be a software package to facilitate customer service. I didn't see where they say what role India plays.

[MCWebsite.Staff]

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[Guest.Visitor]

Bill wrote: > I read a little about this in the InfoWorld 12/22 Tech Watch article. > Kana > has farmed out some/most of its work on the IQ 8 package to India and > is > very happy with the results. InfoWorld's Ephraim Schwartz is doing a followup to this subject. In the Jan 5 issue, he sorta sets the table about how IT outsourcing is becoming a hot topic and shares some of Kana's viewpoints on the matter. He says that in the 1/12 issue "I'll look at how much Kana really saved and will take a deeper look into the future." Kana has stated that India is 75% cheaper. Also, Schwarts clarifies an issue we muddled from the press release. Kana used a company named HCL for the programming, not Accenture. Bill