Paved Paradise: Faces of the IT Recession [Archive]

Guest.Visitor

12-31-1969, 06:33 PM

** This thread discusses the article: Paved Paradise: Faces of the IT Recession (http://www.mcpressonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2918) **
Americans want the right to sell Coca-Cola, Kentucky Fried Chicken, McDonald's hamburgers and Dominoes Pizza in every country in the world but don't want certifiably better software from dedicated professionals from other countries to come into the US. Why? Didn't we see the same complaints in the 1970s when Japan swamped the US auto industry with better quality automobiles? How many of these whiners drive a Japanese car even today? Just check the California freeways. How many of these people buy products made in China and Korea? Look at the check-out lines at the local Wal-Mart. By the way, what is so difficult about taking people's money for 20-30 years? The process is called insurance and right now under "globalization", we have Met Life and Prudential selling insurance in India which they couldn't do 5 years ago. The least Prudential could do is to spend a little of the money it takes in in India on software services procured in India. By the way, why can't the software companies in the US try and obtain CMM Level 5 certification like Indian companies do? Are they afraid they would flunk the test? Why is it that Oracle has to open shop in India? All those hot-shot programmers in Bay Area we hear about, why can't they get CMM certification for Oracle in Redwood Shores?

Guest.Visitor

12-31-1969, 06:33 PM

Guest.Visitor

12-31-1969, 06:33 PM

** This thread discusses the article: Paved Paradise: Faces of the IT Recession (http://www.mcpressonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2918) **
Thank you, Tom, for another great piece. I too am troubled by such stories. In fact, the fellow that talked me into getting into the "data processing" career and got me my first job recently emailed me to say: "It's been a great run but I think it's time to find another profession." And now he's openning a canoe and cayak rental in Maine. I feel we have to study what's happened to IT in the last few years. Probably the biggest problem we have is that CEOs have lost confidence in IT. Regardless of whether or not off-shore is the IT solution or if off-shore should be legal, we have to restore our CEO's confidence in IT. We have to change the fact that, historically, a large percentage of IT projects go way over budget and then many of them fail. I was at a company last week bidding on a project. The project was to migrate a Sun server running Oracle to iSeries-based Java. The CEO was afraid of doing the project because another migration, several years earlier (a SAP migration) caused their company to go from a 300 million dollar company to a 75 million dollar a year company (because shipping was down for a month.) My task is to restore that CEO's confidence in IT. Might I also say that our task is to restore CEO confidence nationwide in IT. Tom, I'd like to read your suggestions as to how we need to restore IT confidence. One of my "silver bullets" is Extreme Programming, but that's only one weapon in our arsenal.

Guest.Visitor

12-31-1969, 06:33 PM

** This thread discusses the article: Paved Paradise: Faces of the IT Recession (http://www.mcpressonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2918) **
Her story is an example of how the outsourcing and offshoring push is resulting in what I would call a kind of "buffalo syndrome". The "trade press" hype is such that it's become a twist on an old cliche: "No exec ever got fired for offshoring". This was probably the point of the article. I was a missionary for some years in Latin America before coming back to IT, my wife is from Honduras, so I have a multi-faceted perspective on this issue, and have other reasons for also considering overseas work. And am not against it per se. But there are patterns at work, and it is no accident that there was enough economy in the U.S. to support IT in saving the rest of them from Y2K, which would have been a real problem. Nor the plummeting afterward. But the real issues are the tremendous burden that are laid upon entrepeneurs in the U.S., startups and upstarts that in a "fair environment" would upset everything. If the education system hadn't been sabotaged, at least. (1) Tremendous burden of taxes. Every employee in most Euro countries cost a fortune to hire, here too, compared to some new offshorers. (2) Tremendous burden of over-regulation. Dept. of Labor agents requiring loud back-up beeps of x decibels on forklifts/trucks, then requiring earplugs for the workers to muffle the decibels. (True case) (3) Tremendous burden of over-hyped and over-done environmental regulations. (4) Assault on honesty. (5) Competition against state industries. (Almost all Chinese corporations disguised as capitalists ventures are owned by some state government agency, including an international trade corp and the ones listed on Wall Street). (NOT an endorsement of industry subsidies in the U.S.). "He that stoppeth his ears at the cry of the poor, he himself shall also cry, and shall not be heard".

Guest.Visitor

12-31-1969, 06:33 PM

** This thread discusses the article: Paved Paradise: Faces of the IT Recession (http://www.mcpressonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2918) **
"...the right to sell Coca-Cola, KFC, ..."???? These poor people in other country’s are clamoring to purchase the products that AMERICAN entrepreneurs provide. Yeah, it helps the bottom line, but we also employ the natives when we open a franchise in that country....we don’t "outsource" those jobs to Americans. The economy (such that it is) in those countries benefit from the hard work and ingenuity of the AMERICAN entrepreneurs. Heck, if the only diversion I had was to study for the "CMM Level 5", maybe it would interest me to be certified. But I have color TV, air conditioning, an automobile, movie theaters, vacations to take, places to go and things to see. I guess there is a benefit to living in a God forsaken corner of the world...you have the time to be "CMM Level 5" certified.

Guest.Visitor

12-31-1969, 06:33 PM

** This thread discusses the article: Paved Paradise: Faces of the IT Recession (http://www.mcpressonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2918) **
> Americans want the right to sell Coca-Cola, Kentucky Fried Chicken, > McDonald's hamburgers and Dominoes Pizza in every country in the > world but don't want certifiably better software from dedicated > professionals from other countries to come into the US. Why? And what is the difference betweeen these 2 examples? The Americans are selling a product in these other countries and are employing citizens in those countries. India is not selling a software product, they are selling a service which is performed outside the US - a distinction which I'm sure is not lost on you. Introduce a competitor to Windows and if Americans complain then, you'll have a point to make. And as to your ascertion that the software is certifiably better is plain wishful thinking. > Didn't we see the same complaints in the 1970s when Japan swamped the > US auto industry with better quality automobiles? Again, product versus service. > By the way, why can't the software companies in the US try and obtain > CMM Level 5 certification like Indian companies do? Are they afraid > they would flunk the test? Why is it that Oracle has to open shop in > India? All those hot-shot programmers in Bay Area we hear about, why > can't they get CMM certification for Oracle in Redwood Shores? If Indian programmers are so "hot-shot" why are numerous computer boards experiencing member revolt due to the clueless newbies joining and asking questions that reveal the newbies total lack of knowledge about the subject? My favorite example was in a BPCS discussion board where someone came in and asked for detailed breakdown of what an MRP system provided as a user experience so he could fulfill a programming request. Bill

A.Garrison

12-31-1969, 06:33 PM

** This thread discusses the article: Paved Paradise: Faces of the IT Recession (http://www.mcpressonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2918) **
While I recognize many companies do have the attitude mentioned by Dave, I just dont see it as often as I used to. There was a time when most companies I knew treated IT as just an expense, like electricty. Dont pay the bills, and you have no light -- it was just something you had to have. I dont see that attitude much anymore. The companies that are thriving (or surviving) are treating IT as an active contributor to the bottom line. Maybe not as a direct revenue source by writing software for sale, but a contributor nonetheless. My current company, for example, is an entertainment company. The CEO on down knows our IT solutions create a customer experience that keeps customers coming back. We are viewed as a strategic asset, not an expense. It just hasnt been hard proving the ROI. If I was working for someone who thought IT was an expense, I would be looking to move asap. Such a company just wont survive. It pains me to read about a successful IT dept that got torpedoed by an aquisition. Sometimes companies make decisions that just arent rational. I do, however, see the impact of outsourcing every day. My employer constantly lets big contracts to software firms in India and the US instead of making modest expansions in our own staff. That is a real problem for us in many ways. The knowledge the contractors gain just walks out the door (and believe me, every new contractor here gets an education, esp in our tools and practices). The amounts we pay these firms are sky high. A three month stint as a contractor here would pay the annual salary of a full time developer. We arent saving money by outsourcing, the numbers dont add up. It is a myth. So why do we do it? I have asked lots of people without getting any satisfactory answer. Don: I do see some companies out there as you describe. I run into some that have spent big $$ on projects that didnt deliver on the hype. Now those same companies are gun shy about anything that doesnt have a 13mth ROI. (Try to sell management on a new enterprise infrastructure that will take 36 mths to deploy and still must have a 13mth ROI. We managed to do it here but it was a hard sell.) These kinds of articles really bring it home for me. I dont get much from the stories of vague warnings and generalizations, however, specific cases like these show you what is really at stake. You know, for me, the puzzle has always been how to reconcile the massive amount of experience and education it takes to be really good in our industry with the perception of some management suits that we are a commodity; that is, replaceable on a moments notice. The system knowledge, experience, and proven delivery record goes out the window with the promise of cheap labor out of sight somewhere. Why is that? Sure they will figure it out somewhere down the road when they try to find out what happened to their competitive edge, but thats a bit late for the casualities. Years ago I knew I had all the answers. Now I know better.

maldonadoj

12-31-1969, 06:33 PM

** This thread discusses the article: Paved Paradise: Faces of the IT Recession (http://www.mcpressonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2918) **
Who do you think developed the CMM Level 5 certification? Why don't software developers in other countries use software developed in their county? I think Oracle opens shops in India because 'Hot-shot programmers' won't work for 5 dollar an hour. I also think that we should apply a import that on software and help desk support that far greater than India's, China or Japan's import tax and apply a national security tax to pay for a lack of software specialist in the USA cause by the degrading pay scales J Maldonado

Guest.Visitor

12-31-1969, 06:33 PM

** This thread discusses the article: Paved Paradise: Faces of the IT Recession (http://www.mcpressonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2918) **
I luckily got a short-term contract in a company(after looking for almost a year!)and was to be working with an H1-B from China..Once I got to know him, we had a discussion about the job market, H1B etc.. It was then that he(totally unsolicited by me) told me that the reason H1b's are brought in is because "American programmers are lazy." And I think he really believed it..Now I am assuming that most likely he is not the only guy with that opinion but I do apolgize for any generalization. I suspect that when these guys come over from whatever country they are brain-washed to thinking that they are somehow better than us..that they either work harder or are smarter. They have this whole "load of bull" that someone has been feeding them..why I do not know unless its just some sort of veil for insecurity or something. Anyway...after a moment of reflection..I looked this guy in the eye and said.."You know what...American programmers are lots of things(look at the loons in this forum!) but one thing they are NOT is lazy. Some of the best programmers I have ever known were and still are Americans. I will also say some of the best programmers I have known were Indian, Jewish, Russian, Mexican, Armenian, South American, etc)but my point is that I believe no-one is better than anyone else. And thats whey we need a level playing field in terms of money in order to compete. Anyway...I found out that this guy came over here from Hong Kong when he lost his job which was "outsourced" to "Peking China." (It seems that there is some sort of pecking order in the world of outsourcing!) So then I told the guy..."So you came here to work for less cause someone took your job who would work for less...but tell me...where are we(Americans) supposed to go? We have no place to go. Then I just went back to work. What else could I do.

Guest.Visitor

12-31-1969, 06:33 PM

** This thread discusses the article: Paved Paradise: Faces of the IT Recession (http://www.mcpressonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2918) **
<blockquote><tt>The US is no longer guaranteed to have the next new industry in our own country. Finally, for the first time in a coupla hundred years, we will have to compete on equal footing. </tt></blockquote> I read The Lexus and The Olive Tree: Understanding Globalization (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0385499345/qid=1078270946//ref=pd_ka_1/104-8900816-3986305?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) by Thomas Friedman of the NYT and found it to explain the issues pretty well. Overall, the author was optimistic that the US is positioned well for global trade. We've been doing the freedom thing for a while and have that pretty refined (individual rights, etc.), and the big business thing we do well, and we've figured out how to keep organized crime to a level lower than in other countries (heh - we elect 'em! :-)), and we've got great natural resources and natural ports on both sides of the hemisphere. And we have decent transparency, so people know that their investments aren't going to be confiscated. All of these things are conducive to better business environment. And we've got a huge head start on this "adjustment" thing. What happens when factories and software are almost completely automated? Then those who rely on it will need to make the "adjustments", and we'll be a long ways down the road. To whereever we're going... At least, that's what I keep telling myself. Of course, that doesn't mean that it will be easy, but... Brian

T.Stockwell

12-31-1969, 06:33 PM

** This thread discusses the article: Paved Paradise: Faces of the IT Recession (http://www.mcpressonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2918) **
Don, and others.... First, thanks for the very strong response to the above article. As I mentioned in the article, these are "examples" of what has happened to various IT professionals since 2000. It is not an article about outsourcing, or "certification", or economics. It's an article about three individuals. I have received literally dozens of such testimonies about the state of IT over the past two years. The article is a case-study, indicating that something very significant has changed in the industry that is disrupting the lives, hopes, and aspirations of individuals who had really dedicated themselves to IT professionalism. These are not "whiz kid" dot.com Internet junkies who were riding the great employment demands of the late 1990s. These were serious and seasoned professionals -- at all levels of IT -- who were adding significant value to their organizations when events sent their lives and careers in radically different directions. This article is not about H1B visas. It is not about outsourcing. It's not about globalization. It's about the person sitting next to you (or the person who used to sit next to you). I'm writing this message from PartnerWorld in Las Vegas. PartnerWorld is where IBM orchestrates and synchronizes its messages with its 60,000 business partners. (5500 attendance this year) It's message replication time in Las Vegas. I came here to see if the impact that we're currently expriencing in IT is being reflected in the messages that IBM is delivering to its business partners. It's my hope -- now writing on deadline -- to respond to the request for "suggestions" in my next column. While I hesitate to offer my own opinions (still working on them) at this time, by next Monday I believe I'll have a good piece of information about what IBM believes is the way out of our dilemma in IT. Some of it is obvious, ("differentiate yourself in the market") and some of it has very serious implications to all of us. Sidebar: Went to the Microsoft reception last night(they're business partners with IBM too) to network and informally listen to their strategies for IT during this serious time of transition. Microsoft is overwhelmed with awe at what IBM is doing with its Business Partner organization. Some Microsoft managers expressed to me that they are having difficulty communicating the significance of IBM's power and strategy throughout their organization. It's definitely a culture thing for them. They're concerned about the way that the market has suddenly been transformed to an "outsourced" "On Demand" atmosphere. I hope to have some thoughts about this challenge -- as it relates to the world in which we work -- at a future point. Finally, thanks for your comments -- each of you that has taken the time in this forum. I sincerely appreciate reading each remark. Tom Stockwell Editor in Chief MC Press

buck.calabro@commsoft.net

12-31-1969, 06:33 PM

** This thread discusses the article: Paved Paradise: Faces of the IT Recession (http://www.mcpressonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2918) **
Namasthe Harimau, You have made some very good points, but as David and others have said, it isn't abour racism or protectionism. It's about keeping the US government out of the business of subsidising the loss of US jobs. If US employees can be replaced, the market will certainly replace them. This is not new: in the 80's it was common to see companies lay off older (more highly paid) workers for younger (cheaper) ones. But it is insanity for me to pay my own government to sponsor a program (H1-B) that specifically removes US labour and replaces it with non-US employees. The H1-B program was dreamt up by big business as a way to import cheaper workers. They needed an excuse to disguise this, and came up with a 'shortage of technical labour.' That was never true in the US: not in the 90's and certainly not now. Sadly, like many government programs, H1-B is riddled with businesses who violate the law. Even worse, there are many thousands of H1-B employees who are treated like slave labour by the body shops who hire them out. It is the body shop (big business) that makes the money, not the employee. The body shop dangles a US Green Card application in front of these folks and they have little choice but to do as they are asked because re-starting the green card processing (with a different employer) means they have to begin another 5 year wait. Once again just to make my point very plain: I think VERY highly of many of the Indian programmers I have worked with. Like any group of people there are some who excel and some who don't. I do not believe that 'country of origin' changes that one whit. I admire their drive to make a better life. Both of my parents are immigrants to the US, leaving 'worse' for 'better.' They came here permanently and have contributed to the culture, economy and spirit of the US, becoming citizens as soon as possible. I understand and applaud the drive to have a better life. I simply want the special H1-B program to end because it was established under false premises (NOT the fault of the H1-B holders!) and it is plain stupid for me to pay for my own government to eliminate my job. Best regards, --buck calabro

Guest.Visitor

12-31-1969, 06:33 PM

** This thread discusses the article: Paved Paradise: Faces of the IT Recession (http://www.mcpressonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2918) **
Worth reading... http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/07/opinion/07FRIE.html and http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/07/international/asia/07INDI.html (You have to register, but it's free).

J.Pluta

12-31-1969, 06:33 PM

** This thread discusses the article: Paved Paradise: Faces of the IT Recession (http://www.mcpressonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2918) **
Tom, I'd like to read your suggestions as to how we need to restore IT confidence. Actually, it's pretty simple. Get back to providing value. In the 70's and 80's we provided real value for our customers. Service bureaus provided collation and reporting of data for companies that didn't have the manpower to do it themselves. Online data entry systems and inquiry provided the ability to enter that data without paying for data entry and printing. These costs were pretty easy to justify. The other area was application programming. A good example was inventory control, MRP and finally ERP. Those applications provided real savings in reduced inventory costs. Once again, pretty easy to justify. For the last 15 years, though, we've been selling crap. We've been telling our clients "move to Unix", "don't move to Unix", "move to Linux", "SQL is king", "Java rules all", "EJB is the next coming". Moving to Unix doesn't save any money (except maybe a few bucks in hardware which is offset by extra costs in labor). EJB is dead, long live whatever the next fad is. We've stopped providing value add, and instead have focused on providing technology. Technology for technology's sake sucks. A decent analyst who takes the time to understand his client's business needs can do wonders with VB; he doesn't need Java or HTML. The tools we use are secondary to the work we do. The IT industry is basically "blinded by science" right now. The machinery is driven by the latest technologies, and the problem is that nobody knows how to use these technologies. In effect we're selling beta code to the CEOs. No wonder they've lost faith. Joe

dacust

12-31-1969, 06:33 PM

** This thread discusses the article: Paved Paradise: Faces of the IT Recession (http://www.mcpressonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2918) **
ksolutions1, I resent being called a "loon". I like to think of myself as more of a Kookaburra (http://www.honoluluzoo.org/kookaburra.htm). But, other than that, I think this is one of the best commentaries I've seen in here for a while. Just as you say, the individuals are not the enemy. And they have some misconceptions. But they are simply trying the best they can with the flawed information they have to make it in this world. Just as we are, with our own misconceptions and misinformation. Interesting to note the pecking order. That is exactly what is happening. We in the US came first in many markets. We were first in the auto industry. As much as we tried to tarrif and tax and badmouth foreign autos, they made it in anyway, because they learned how to make a car and made it SO cheap, that even with tarrifs, they could STILL compete. Every time another industry moves to a foriegn country, we have found another industry to excell in. Now comes the hard part: Because of the internet, there is no longer a need for collaborators to be in the same place, AND because we have catered to big business for so long, beleiving in the "trickle down economics", AND because we let the stock market drive companies to profits for this quarter instead of building a strong company, AND because, well, I could go on forever, we are now in a situation where the companies will HAVE to move to stay competitive. They are no longer tied to the US, they are tied to stock gains. They don't have to stay here in order to please their stockholders. They CAN'T stay here and continue to please their stockholders. The US is no longer guaranteed to have the next new industry in our own country. Finally, for the first time in a coupla hundred years, we will have to compete on equal footing. We also have a "load of bull" that we are toteing around, that WE are somehow better than everyone else. It has been true for a long time that we, as a country, have been doing things better than anyone else, but it's not a given that it will continue. Not because we are doing anything wrong, but because the rest of the world is slowly starting to do it right. Maybe I'll be lucky and my company will keep the IT department until after I retire, but if not, I gotta find another job, and most likely it'll be another industry. Not by choice. I'm not saying that we don't need to fight the current trend (Joe Pluta, I've been writing my letters!!:), but I'm saying it's more of a stalling tactic that a permant solution. Joe has a good point: simply the volume of letters is a good idea. Other than that, IMHO, I think we need to point out security and quality issues as a reason to slow down and be cautious, rather than try to keep all the jobs here. If we are slow and cautious, things won't move offshore until it makes sense to do it and things will stay here that should (in a perfect world, that is). -dan "the loon" kookaburra

Harimau

12-31-1969, 06:33 PM

** This thread discusses the article: Paved Paradise: Faces of the IT Recession (http://www.mcpressonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2918) **
Actually, I was not TRYING to post anonymously. I just hit the button saying "Discuss" and it took me there. Anyway, I am a naturalized US citizen from India. I have spent about 30 years in the US. I now split my time between the US and India. I like to practice what I preach and can truthfully say that I never owned any car other than an American-made one, even when I was in Singapore for 18 months. If I own a Japanese TV that is because by that time there were no US-made electronic equipment. As to Coca-Cola being a product and off-shore programming a service, all you are saying is that a one-off product is NOT a product. After all, the off-shore programmers do write programs, something that can be considered a product. By the way, several credit-card companies and banks are using off-shore services to track non-payment of bills as low as $10, something that would be written off if the follow-up has to be done by US staff sitting in Omaha, NE. As to that stupid comment about there being no entertainment and so people in India have the time for getting quality certifications, that merely exposes your ignorance. India produces over 1000 movies a year. I flip thru TV in India and can watch 60+ channels including BBC, CNN, Deutsche Welle (Germany), Channel News Asia (Singapore), etc. The vast majority of the channels are locally produced. The other nice thing about Americans is how they cut off discussions by pointing out national origin, accent, religion, etc., as if that explains everything. Remember how some law student at Georgetown University leaked out the fact that minorities with lower LSAT scores were admitted to Georgetown Law School while some whites were denied admission because of that? (He found that information from his work in the Admissions Office). While he was being interviewed on Larry King Live, I decided to call in. My own experience ar Georgetown was that when I called to inquire about admission to law school there, the receptionist simply said that they don't admit foreigners and hung up on me. At that time I was a green-card holder and had every right of studying in any university I qualified for but that was not Georgetown's view. Guess what? I didn't get past Larry King's receptionist either!

Harimau

12-31-1969, 06:33 PM

** This thread discusses the article: Paved Paradise: Faces of the IT Recession (http://www.mcpressonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2918) **
There was a time in the US when the internal IT departments wrote the systems that they needed. But then we got into the situation where everybody decided to chase after the "latest and greatest", meaning Oracle and SAP ERP systems. If you ran an honest IT department that was successful but if you didn't have one of those ERP packages, you had the Big Five consultants come in and tell the management that they needed to replace the systems -- using of course themselves as consultants. Enough of you guys went along and we saw SAP, Oracle, PeopleSoft and Baan take over the software business. The IT department started the resume enhancement process by implementing these packages and then going after the "flavor of the day" such as J2EE, ASP, VB, EJB and any other combination of letters one could think of. On top of this, you guys went hyping the complexity of your work. Pray tell me, exactly what is the "business logic" in an Accounts Receivable system? In the integrated package we had, shipping against a sales order automatically created the invoice. All that we did in AR was to apply the checks to accounts, send out dunning letters, make collection calls. So, how many lines of code does that take? When your consultants showed up and asked you to move from CICS systems to client-server, you happily went along. When the same consultants came in 5 years later and told you that you need to move to Java, you did that too... forgetting the fact that the browser model on the front-end is not significantly different from the CICS model. Did you ever question the consultant's previous advice -- or your lame acceptance -- of the client-server model? No. Instead, you now go to management and tell them the browser will enable you to replace programs without having to visit every desktop; that same situation obtained in the CICS model or with just plain RPG. If you don't want to think, don't blame others for your problems. By the way, I ran the reference site for IBM AS/400 in Silicon Valley for 7 years. Those wonderful consultants from Price Waterhouse told us in 1993 that we needed to go to SAP.... minor problem that they knew nothing about: at that time, Unix was limited to 256 users and we were already in excess of that. (So don't tell me about Indian programmers with limited knowledge). After I left, the company chose to go with SAP. Two years later, they wrote off $40 million in unusable manufacturing software. You might want to take a guess at what that is. All implemented by wonderful on-site consultants, a few of whom happened to be H1-B programmers from India but quite a bit from various US consulting companies! I am willing to grant you that incompetence is spread equally across the globe. Unfortunately for you guys, quality certification seems to be unequally spread with the main concentration in India followed by Japan. Harimau

Harimau

12-31-1969, 06:33 PM

** This thread discusses the article: Paved Paradise: Faces of the IT Recession (http://www.mcpressonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2918) **
These are companies that have opened shop in India. They charge HIGHER rates than Indian companies like Infosys or Wipro because they are American companies and then outsource their work to their captive programming shops in India. They maximize their profits at your expense. And you complain that Indian companies are making you jobless!

Harimau

12-31-1969, 06:33 PM

** This thread discusses the article: Paved Paradise: Faces of the IT Recession (http://www.mcpressonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2918) **
The suckiness of Bollywood movies is irrelevant. They make movies that target a different audience. If their tastes do not agree with yours, that doesn't mean squat. 1000 movies a year for the last 20 years means they have found the formula for success -- just like Coca-Cola has done. I feel sorry for you for watching those couple of Bollywood movies. I don't watch any of them myself.

Harimau

12-31-1969, 06:33 PM

** This thread discusses the article: Paved Paradise: Faces of the IT Recession (http://www.mcpressonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2918) **
As IT Director, I refused to outsource jobs... be it to US-based consultants or to India. For not listening to the crappy advice of PW, a VP of IT was brought in over my head. He promptly asked me to outsource AS/400 maintenance to India on the basis that he wanted my programmers to learn "new" skills. With the work outsourced, my folks lost their knowledge base in short order as all enhancements were done by contract personnel. I must give credit to my VP. He also refused the lure of SAP on the basis that our systems were perfectly adequate. It was after his departure (and mine) that the company decided to blow a wad it could ill afford on SAP. It is not just IT staff that is looking for resume enhancement. All users want SAP on their resumes so that they could get their next jobs. So long as US executive manegement believes in the trade press hype about ERP systems, IT folks stand no chance in resisting this inexorable tide. I saw company after company spend $80-$120 million on SAP implementation, money that could have been spent on product development. But if IT staff wants to go along in order to get along, they have no one to blame but themselves. At least I fought for what I believed in and demanded to be laid off when I could no longer defend my position alone. Look at sucky IBM... supporting Java on the AS/400 just to go along when they already have a loyal base of customers who couldn't care less about Java.

Harimau

12-31-1969, 06:33 PM

** This thread discusses the article: Paved Paradise: Faces of the IT Recession (http://www.mcpressonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2918) **
Why don't they make it mandatory for software companies to be certified. ISO 9000 was developed by the Europeans. They simply banded together and said that they won't buy products or services from companies without ISO 9000 certification. Companies all over the world took the time and effort needed to get that certification. US DoD has mandated that all embedded software (such as flight control software for helicopters) has to be produced bt departments certified at CMM Level 3 at a minimum. I know of an Indian company that provided the training needed so that the company (Sikorsky) could re-structure its processes and obtain certification. Why are there no American companies that can do this at a reasonable price? India, China, etc., consider ISO 9000 and CMM to be merely non-tariff barriers to entry into the marketplace. They are willing to invest the money needed to cross the barriers. If in the process, the customers get better software, the customer benefits. As to adding an import tax on software, how about an import tax on cars, TVs, VCRs, clothing, shoes, etc? But that would hit your pocketbook, wouldn't it. How many automobile assembly line workers, how many iron and steelworkers have been laid off? At that time, you blamed it on the "lazy unions" and their excessive bargaining power for the decline of the American Labor. Now the shoe happens to be on your foot and you want protectionism from outsourcing software development! It is all a question of whose ox is being gored. By the way, do you know why the last round of talks on WTO failed? Because the US demanded tariff-free entry of agricultural products into developing countries but was not willing to remove the billions of dollars in agricultural subsidies paid out to US farmers. The rest of the world doesn't have the money to subsidize their farmers to the same extent Europe and US subsidize their farmers and so they told the Americans and the Europeans what they could do with their agricultural surplus. I notice nobody responded about why Met Life and Prudential should be allowed to sell insurance in India as part of globalization.

MCWebsite.Staff

12-31-1969, 06:33 PM

** This thread discusses the article: Paved Paradise: Faces of the IT Recession (http://www.mcpressonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2918) **
** This thread discusses the Content article: Paved Paradise: Faces of the IT Recession (http://www.mcpressonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2918) **
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David Abramowitz

12-31-1969, 06:33 PM

David Abramowitz

12-31-1969, 06:33 PM

** This thread discusses the article: Paved Paradise: Faces of the IT Recession (http://www.mcpressonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2918) **
Don Denoncourt wrote: Probably the biggest problem we have is that CEOs have lost confidence in IT. This may not be the case. It should be kept in mind that CEOs tend to look at their firms in terms of a balance sheet. On that balance sheet IT will be in a cost center. IT is almost always in a cost center because unless you are producing marketable software or services, there is no income generated by the IT process. Consequently a CEO will look at any method of reducing the cost regardless of confidence or comfort level that the CEO has with the people involved. This is another reason why it's so easy for an outsourcer to sell the outsourcing concept to the CEO. The bottom line is the bottom line, and in this case the bottom line has sorely little to do with the level of service. This is also why most outsourcing efforts do not work. That is the bottom line is not enhanced. If the overall cost includes level of service, and timeliness then that is a detriment, but since accounting is performed for a set period of time the loss may not become apparant. It's a complicated topic indeed, but if a comprehensive survey were to be conducted I think you will find that just as many "successful" IT departments have been victimized as others. Dave

David Abramowitz

12-31-1969, 06:33 PM

** This thread discusses the article: Paved Paradise: Faces of the IT Recession (http://www.mcpressonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2918) **
Harimau wrote: And you complain that Indian companies are making you jobless! If you go through the articles, and postings that I have written, you will never find a complaint about Indian companies. Just to be sure, I checked. In point of fact, I have repeatedly stated, that H1-B holders are actually victims in the course of events. What complaints there are focus on the willingness, nay practically eagerness, of American executives to accept the practice of outsourcing without the appropriate due diligence that they would apply to buying a personal bottle of wine! The complaints about H1-B, have not been about the program, or the holders, but rather the lies and abuses surrounding the program. The complaints about L-1 once again are not directed at the holders, but at the ersatz rationale used by corporations for this programs existence. Go back and read the actual text of the Jobs Protection Act of 2003. This is not xenaphobia, this is common sense, and in point of fact, most countries have had (for years) similar measures on their books. Give me a level playing field, and the complaints will stop. OTOH, I have seen one or two Bollywood movies. Saying that they suck would not do justice to suckiness. Dave