IMHO: Where Have All the Jobs Gone?

[David Abramowitz]

I believe that there are greater forces at work here. Most AS/400 shops do not have the resources necessary for effective outsourcing. The sort of systems developed on the AS/400 have already been developed. There are no bottom up efforts anymore. Any new installations will more than likely have a package implemented. H1-B and L1 have been devastating. By law these visas were limited by time. In practice, many have stayed, obtaining green cards. This was never the intention of the lawmakers, but it has happenned, and saturation of the job market has occurred. The jump from AS/400 to other platforms is certainly a factor. IBM tacitly encouraged this by its marketing absence. I started my job search last month, and found that after so many years of establishing a career, I can only command half my previous salary. A trash collector has a better career path, and perhaps greater dignity. Dave

[bharder@nlrha.ab.ca]

A lot of our desire to stay on the AS/400 (iWhatever) is predicated on our desire to stay with a familiar, reliable system. We know that it can provide business benefits. However part of it is the comfort level we have established with the technology. In order to make this happen, we need evolution of the system, not revolution. With revolution, everything is up for grabs. Why not change the operating system? Why not the hardware too? Why not outsource? Why not divest/merge & acquire/contract? Why not ASP/CORBA/NetBeans/Web Services/SOA/Java/.Net/buzz buzz buzz? Businesses seem to like to rip-and-replace these days. Everything is a commodity, but to truly have a commodity, you have to have low pricing, uniformity of services, and many suppliers. Particularly insidious, I would say, is the fact that it's difficult to build business and marketing differentiators when you are working with commodities. I am going to suggest that the problem is at least partly political. Many times in my career, I've noticed that management seems to like crisis. Getting funding is far easier if there is a crisis. Just try to get funding for an evolutionary change. What's the problem, the bean counters ask? We can't afford that! There's no crisis! Also, the mania to measure, and insist upon, direct Return on Investment feeds into this. It's often difficult to link a relatively steady funding stream, and evolutionary changes paid for by this stream, to organizational profit. Where's the ROI allegedly tough-minded CFO's ask? So instead you get funding bursts, interspersed with periods of funding drought. Each burst of money produces drastic change. You can certainly see the change. Heck, the entire computer changed! Hardware, operating system, software, business process, programming style, organizational philosophy, everything! Finally, I think CEO's and the rest of the C-level crowd think of themselves differently. They often want to be movers and shakers, real change agents. They want to be famous in their own way. If you can point to a completely different system, and you funded it, you can say with some legitimacy, "I did that." I think CEO's of days gone by were often satisfied with a different mind set. Many thought of themselves as stewards of their companies. They had a responsibility to the organization and the people. They were protectors. They renovated the structure, rather than the current crop of demolishers and rebuilders.

[Guest.Visitor]

Last year when we were advertising for an Iseries position we didn't even get a dozen applications and interestingly not even one from a woman. We advertised on Dice & several Iseries forums especially ones that had job postings. It seems most of the programmers do not want to relocate even if there are no jobs in their locale. Granted our salary offering wasn't on the high end but the position did include a good benefit package.

[padshore@optonline.net]

It's interesting when you have 2 different people looking at the same thing, but from differing perspectives. Not that I'm looking, but I would be interested to see what this position was, and what the salary that was being offered, along with the package. One mans meat is another mans poison, and with the expense and problems of relocation, unless I was really desperate (which I have come close to in the recent past) a position, with salary and benefits, would have to really blow me away. Alan

[Guest.Visitor]

Market forces drive these decision not a false perception of superiority. I'm sure it serves foreigners well to perpetuate this nonsense but that's all it is. Stack up born and bred USA engineers and their innovations with the rest of the world and the rest of the world has their ass kicked everytime. After all Toyota doesn't make a better car, they made a copy for less, put high end features in cheaper cars. And most of those are made here anyway. I have driven a Ford Explorer for 8 years now and no problems thus far. I have known people with Toyotas that get rid of them just like we get rid of American brand cars because they get old and rusty. I see few Toyotas on the road older than 10 years. Many people buy BMW's and Volvos and end up selling them because they are too costly to maintain. The Indians simply use their size and cheap cost to attract greedy corporate accountants and CEO's eager to earn their 100 million a year. It's not exactly rocket science now is it? Smarter -- BULL! I have worked with many foreigners over the years and still do in a large thriving US consulting practice, the Indians are the most egotistical and hostile to their US counterparts that I encounter and would be glad to never have to work with any of them, man or woman. I work with Hispanics, Asians, Russians, etc all who have integrated well and are much more personable and easy-going. The Indians are generally a pain in the ass. Outsourcing already is meeting many hurdles notwithstanding the type of work outsourced doesn't really threaten the bread and butter IT jobs in this country anyway. You can't outsource any job with intense client interface and that's most of ours in a 2 billion a year company in consulting. And neither is Gov't and/or defense going anywhere. You think IT and engineering is just VB and Java?! You don't think there's a back-lash already developing in this country? If all the real Americans left their IT jobs the industry would be destroyed, just being able to understand syntax and code what someone tells you too is not what IT is about. If Indians are so good then where's the server, where's the OS, where's the beef? Bunch of freaking copy-cats just like the Japanese.

[padshore@optonline.net]

Wow - don't let your bigotry hit you in your ass on the way out. Lets start from the beginning. Toyota's are definitely NOT a cheaper model. My 1990 Camry I gave to the son of a friend of mine after 12 years and 297,000 miles, and its STILL going. Egotistical and hostile people can be found in ALL walks of life, be they Indian, Pakistani, French, British, AMERICAN, Canadian, etc. etc. If you think you can't out source any job with intense client interface, then I'm afraid you are walking around with your eyes closed (or at least in a squint). Granted, "Gov't and/or defense" may not be going anywhere, but how many IT professionals can that support? If all the real Americans left their IT jobs where would they go? And what do you consider a "REAL" American? Is their name Geronimo, or Sitting Bull, or is it O'Reilly, MacDuff, Goldstein, Vonnegut. My point being that at one point in time, your ancestors were more than likely immigrants.

[R.Daugherty]

Hi Lori, I've been working for over a year now, but before that I was on the job boards for over a year. I was in Ohio but willing to relocate at my own expense to most anyplace. (There were a couple of places that I just wouldn't have enjoyed living there so I didn't apply.) I was jerked around for a year. Companies wanted not only a specific package, but a specific version with recent experience in it. Oh, and "locals" only. I would go to an interview with a company, or have a recruiter call, saying a company was hiring 3 or 5 or 10 or 15 RPG programmers, could I interview? Sometimes I would even make it as far as an interview. And then told to wait. And wait. And wait. This would go on for month after month after month, with company after company. As far as I can tell, none of them hired anybody. It smelled suspiciously like they had to do something to say there were no people available, they had to outsource to India. One company had a three month project. They had over 15 veteran RPG programmers apply, and had to pick 3 of them to interview to choose 1. They ended up not even doing that. Just one reason after another that projects were going to be done but didn't get the goahead. Then to add insult to injury, after a year of this I started being told by recruiters that I was no longer "current". This after 6 years of RPGIV programming, and 9 years of RPG/400 before that. But there were so many programmers available they had to start weeding somewhere. Ok, how many years of that do you think it takes to drive all the people to different careers? Long enough to lose your house and car, anyway. So ComputerWorld had an article recently saying there was a shortage of i5 programmers. Reason? Some CIO wanted them to know RPG and Java and Websphere. Then the CIO was quoted "it's hard to find Java programmers anywhere, they're just not to be found." So how does that make i5 programmers scarce? Then they quoted someone who actually knew what they were talking about, a veteran /400 recruiter, who said there are plenty of RPG programmers available. Obviously, just like with the "we only want someone who was just working on what we have" people, people who are clueless enough to specify RPG and Java as requirements are not going to find many available who fit the bill. And if there actually are RPG jobs again on the /400, we can do what we did in the early 90's when the /400 was taking off, and train RPG programmers in a few weeks. All the consulting companies did it. I learned it along with a large class in 6 weeks in '89. And I saw dozens do the same thing throughout the 90's. But they are going to move on to other things when there are no jobs. They have no choice. rd

[Guest.Visitor]

This will be fun. My experience with bleeding heart, all talk liberals like yourself is that when it comes right down to it as long as their job and security is not a stake the sky's the limit. But when it comes time for them to stand up they seem to be hiding somewhere with no cash to give. First of all, define a bigot. Just how would an American live and survive in China, India, Pakistan, Russia, France, Quebec, any of this countries where "real" americans are so loved. Clearly we're all missing something but maybe you can enlighten us a little. The fact is if I tried to live in India and work as an IT professional I'd be as welcome as you are right now and probably killed in many parts of the world. So whose the bigot, moron? Because I speak the truth about the Indians I have run across in the consulting world, excluding all other including Russians, Chinese, Vietnamese, Tawianese, etc. you get your nose all bent and start whining like a child. Oh those poor Indian immigrants. Right, just exactly how much did you give in charitable contributions to third world nations last year? Mine, in the thousands, I also support real disadvantage children through World Vision. Your's, I mean you love them so much I'll bet it's a big fat zero. Give anything to the Tsunami victims for relief, eh? Second, your clear lack of knowledge about consulting is evident, where the hell do you think Boeing, Lockheed, Northrup, SAIC, etc,etc get billions in revenues from , India? A real American is any American born and bred in this country through it's own educational system and that includes second generation immigrants AND is LOYAL to this country. You can become a citizen of this country and as long as your loyalties are to this country and it's people then fine. But if you're Japanese and will only buy Toyota because it benefits the homeland and who you really consider your people then go back home! The fundamental difference between immigrants that are American and helped build this country to the whining saps like yourself is that they were men and women who really cared about others not just their own self-interests. Come to the country and assimilate. You're whining about the turn of the century immigration which has about as much relevance as your arguments. Hmmm, if you love immigrants so much why not go to France, they are having a wonderful time right now with the Muslim population, wanna fix that too, with your big heart. What immigration is left is those people who cannot or will not help change their own country for the better and in a large part greed is the main driver to come here. Come to America, displace workers, I work for pennies hire me not REAL Americans. You're an idiot, it happens to every sector not just IT. I have a friend in construction working for 30 years who has a difficult time now thanks to all the "immigrants", er I mean according to you "Americans" that will work for next to nothing. Name one outsourced job that requires intense client interaction from the ground up through the complete SDLC that has been off-shored and that is in the millions and last a few years. They don't exist, what is off-shored are all the routine maintenance tasks and development that can be done with little to no client interaction. Talk is cheap, NAME it! Yes, as long as it's clearly defined through documentation it can be built but that's not client interaction, that's just following a pre-defined blueprint that they of course did not create, smarter REAL American's did that. <<Toyota's are definitely NOT a cheaper model>>. Never said that, re-read the text. But of course wrong again, the context is that they WERE the cheaper and better equipped model when they rode ashore - got it now? My step daughters Camry had a large number of problems after 5 years or so that her husband got her another car. The point is(gee you're thick) that ALL cars have issues and are relative in price/performance so Toyota came in with a CHEAPER, better performing car at the time to capture market share from an apathetic, greedy automotive conglomerate but NOT through engineering they invented but instead copied. Again, I'm still waiting for that earth-shattering list of Indian engineering accomplishments that will rock the world, and I guess so is the world. USA, USA , USA , USA!!!!! Clearly you're Indian, so my advice is if you hate REAL Americans so much then go back home. Like it out not you're countrymen are bigots, egotistical morons who managed to murder the best thing that ever happened to them and his name was Ghandi. I have not met one nice assimilated IT Indian male, they all down to a man had major chips on their shoulders. Funny how none of the other immigrants act that way. Hmmm, gosh you're smart padshore, yes of course my family were immigrants many generations ago but not one of them ever came to this country to displace Americans but to help build this country and a better life. My parents were born and raised here and all had deep family roots but not one ever had issues as far as loyalties to this country and neither do I. IT: What IT project greater than 50 million have you been a part of? What IT project that lasted at least 5 years have you been a part of? Can you name any outsourced multi-million dollar contracts that actually build new software from the ground up for non-software engineering firms that are based in the USA? So enlightened and big-hearted one: How many foreigners have you ever worked with? Are you a 1st generation foreigner? Do you have any American friends that are considered the majority population here and I don't mean work buddies, that you are close too? How much money per year in the thousands do you give to the disadvantage that are not Indian or from your homeland? Do you have any pets, dogs, cats, birds? Indicates love of other life or do you prefer to eat them? Do you still speak your language especially at night from your homeland and not English? Do you eschew American values and still enforce you're homeland cultural values on your family? Do you honor and obey any American holidays? Do you belong to any American religion? Would you sing the National Anthem at a American event? Would you put your hand on your heart? Do you love America or just the money you can get? Can you recite the pledge of allegiance? Do you give a shi% about anything you mouthed off about at all, America or just really concerned about world bigotry and peace? In case you haven't figured it out we really don't need Indians here but if you'd like to stay then act like a REAL American. I'll take an Asian any day of the week, smarter, prettier, hard-workers and actually nice others. And BTW, <<And what do you consider a "REAL" American? Is their name Geronimo, or Sitting Bull>> It sure as hell ain't padshore!

[David Abramowitz]

<u>Where</u> are you? Dave

[David Abramowitz]

I find the concept of stereotyping most offensive, and the practice even more so. Speaking only for myself, I know that we are a nation of immigrants. In my case, My mother was English, My Father's mother Russian, and My Father's father Romanian. Despite how an American might be treated abroad, I would like to think that we are better than that and do not have to respond in kind. Each of us is an individual who should be judged by their merits only after they have had a chance. In all my articles, and posts I have severely attacked the visa process, and the willingness of visa holders to accept lower compensation, I have never once attacked the person who holds the visa, and have specifically stated that my stance is not anti-immigration. If you really would like a society where the homogenous population is protected against the invading hordes I suggest giving Russia, Kenya, or the Sudan a try. Dave

[R.Daugherty]

You do a pretty good Ann Coulter imitation, tslate. Needs a little more venom though. rd

[R.Daugherty]

Jacksonville for the last year and a half, Dave. rd

[jschibbelhute@yahoo.com]

,,"if it keeps sending all of our jobs overseas, soon there won't be anyone left in this country able buy their products and keep them in business" Seems so obvious, doesn't it? If a person had an $80k job, the job gets outsourced, and now that person makes $40k (if they're lucky) isn't that $40k that just left our economy? But if I'm the guy (or gal) that outsourced the job, then I can multiply that by however many people I can do this to, and I've just put a whole bunch of cash in the corporate coffers and I can take a huge bonus and buy that vacation home in Aspen that I've been wanting. Never mind the long-term effects on the economy, what do I care? I've got mine, too bad for you. It's just plain greed. I've been working in the mid-range world for 22 years, and luckily I'm still working. It's not what it once was, but I'm still making a living. But I have to wonder how long will it last? Yeah, I should have learned Java 5 years ago, but I work for myself and nobody will pay me to produce "Hello World!" in Java. I spend all my time writing programs that will do what people want and even if I spend all my free time learning Java, it would take me years to produce good work that people will pay for. And even if I do that, it seems I will just wind up competing with much younger people who will work for a fraction of what I can. So, what do we do? Pass laws against outsourcing? Wouldn't ever happen, the big corporations own the government. Even if we did, it's doubtful that would help. The way I see it I can only do two things, (1)keep trying to produce good applications that people want, nowadays that means browser apps, using RPG and the AS/400, iSeries, SystemI, whatever or (2)quit the biz and open a bait shop.

[joman7@newnorth.net]

The AS400 is being passed over because you have non IT people making decisions about systems platform who have no clue. They end up paying sooner or later. They do pay though. Being in IT for 20 years and starting out programming BAL, the erp software Co.s and button pushers for them make big promises and deliver little. Everytime I run across a microsoft based server with apps on it, it gets rebooted every so often during the middle of the day. Users complaining all the time. I have my own Microsoft Visual Studio. VB6 and C++ wasn't hard to learn. I prefer the AS400 or rather ISERIES application development though. It delivers solid applications and reliability. As far as the jobs go, there out there. Outsourcing development is a major security risk, nobody will convince me otherwise. It's like having somebody from a different country handling your check book.

[R.Daugherty]

If a person had an $80k job, the job gets outsourced, and now that person makes $40k (if they're lucky) isn't that $40k that just left our economy? Seems so obvious, doesn't it? As with most things, Joel, unfortunately it isn't. It's true the point of outsourcing is to not pay the $80k, as in this individual example, nor the full amount overall. Indications are that outsourcing IT has not been the same level of success, but for less money, that companies hoped for, but companies definitely are attempting to spend less money. For what they were paying $80k for, they are told they will only need to spend $14k in India, for example. However, what leaves the economy is based on overall trade balance. If India were to buy American goods with the money spent there, then nothing left the economy and in fact both economies grow with the trade. But countries that offer cheap labor to replace American workers don't buy American goods anywhere close enough to have a trade balance. They are sucking us dry, and we are idiots to have sat idly by listening to economic theorists who told us otherwise. I write on a way to turn this around at http://www.justiceforchandra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1397 on my site www.justiceforchandra.com . But Republicans have now done so much damage our children and grandchildren will suffer for decades to pay for it. There unfortunately isn't a series of dropoffs to drop to a new level somewhere between $80k and minimum wage. There is only a sheer drop, good luck to us all. Yeah, I should have learned Java 5 years ago, but I work for myself and nobody will pay me to produce "Hello World!" in Java. IBM spent a billion dollars hiring Java programmers to write ERP infrastructure software that would run on, among other places, the AS/400. It was called San Francisco. Have you heard of all this great Java business environment software since IBM stopped spending billions of dollars on it? I haven't either. It was during that time that IBM perpetuated a self serving myth; that RPG would be replaced with Java, that Java software would be served by Websphere and not operating systems, and that OS/400 is somehow good for nothing but doing backups of AS/400 hard drives partitioned to run Linux, AIX, and Windows. No one but a complete moron could possibly believe that Linux, AIX, or Windows people would do this, but with the millions of dollars IBM spends on Dilbert ads attempting to convince someone of it, they have proven they are complete morons. Java, being operating system and database independent, is supposed to run anywhere with a JVM and a database with ODBC, but one never hears of anything available for Unix, Linux, or Windows running under OS/400. One hears of special ports that IBM must do. So the whole Java thing in practice is not beneficial to OS/400 as IBM claimed. Nor is it likely that a company has decided to develop under OS/400 with Java and Java Toolkit for OS/400 instead of RPG. I actually participated in a project where we did that, where we wrote the admin portion of Jobs/400 in Java to demonstrate the capabilities of the third party web server, but anything that required performance, which was the whole jobs site other than the admin function, I wrote in RPG. IBM may be delusional, but people who use software aren't. In actuality, learning Java syntax versus what Java software is developed in is proportionately equivalent to learning CL on the AS/400 versus what AS/400 RPG software is developed in. You can do some simple stuff, some very useful stuff, but the business systems aren't developed with simple Java syntax, and consequently, jobs not available in it. The J2EE or JSP infrastructures that business systems are developed in are why Java programmers are so scarce. It's actually J2EE programmers who are scarce to be precise. In addition, development is not Websphere everywhere but instead highly OS and datanbase dependent, and next to none of it is OS/400 and DB2/400. A look at job descriptions on the job boards show that a specific operating system and database are prereqs, as well as the J2EE knowledge to deal with them. I have never seen the AS/400/iseries/i5 specified as the J2EE/JSP host. Maybe IBM knows something I don't, but I doubt it. The strengths of i5/OS nee OS/400 is its business transaction processing uniqueness. But IBM is selling Websphere, not OS/400. The only people who know about the strength of that OS/400 uniqueness and the RPG programmer community that has developed such cost effective business software are the companies that prospered with it. And with IBM in a Websphere zeal, we will remain the only people who know about it. rd

[Guest.Visitor]

Hi Lori, You're in Alaska. Does that have something to do with the lack of resumes? To many of us in the lower 48, Alaska is not a place we'd be willing to relocate to. Although, Ketchican is pretty far south and may not be any different from WI where I'm located. It just sounds so cold! ;}. I know of several people who used to be RPG developers and are now in different careers. Three are truck drivers and one is just completing her driver training. Two are selling real estate. One is back in college for nursing. And, one is opening a restaurant. Personally, I programmed in some version of RPG or COBOL from 1981 until 2001. I'd been programming in VB and C++ with some Java from 2001 to 2005. A prior AS400 client called me and I've been doing that for the last year. I've picked up more AS400 work and will continue to be busy. I'm also learning more Java, PHP, HTML and am dipping my toes into the open source pool and Linux pool. The point is that the post-Y2K slowdown moved some folks out of I.T. and into other fields. University enrollment in I.T. programs is way down. I'm not too surprised at the lack of interest in the position. Did you fill the position? Tom.

[R.Daugherty]

I just had a chance to read Shannon O'Donnell's IMHO article. Shannon says it all so well, I'm glad he did and MCPressonline published it. It is truly a sad story, properly put within the context it deserves. In my opinion corporate America has been sold a bill of goods, be it web pages or Java or outsourcing to India. Obviously there can be some good to be had for corporate America to meet new challenges with new opportunities, but as I follow software failures closely, it is unclear to me that the bill of goods has been delivered as promised. I am reminded of a North Dakota official recently quoted concerning a massive software system development failure, and the official lamenting, "Just give us something that works. Our old system had band-aids but it worked." Someday corporate America will realize that, but hopefully before IBM has totally sacrificed the AS/400 at the altar of Websphere. rd

[David Abramowitz]

Is it really possible to follow software failures? Most projects of this nature are prodded on by CFOs, who if anything are adept at covering their tracks in case of failure. Dave

[Guest.Visitor]

They really don't care that we Americans will no longer afford to be able to buy their goods because they know that there are emerging economies all over the world (like in the places they off-shore to) that will be able to pick up our consumption slack. The days of Americans caring about other Americans, are unfortunately (largely) over.

[OzzieH]

The whole situation can be summed up in one sentence: The American worker is being sold down the river for higher profits via the partnership of corporations and politicians, all because the American worker doesn’t care. Everything is up for sale, and I mean EVERYTHING. Thirty-million illegal immigrants? Eh, who cares? (this is just one of many problems) Mr/Ms Politician says, "Corporate America, you help me and my party get reelected and I'll not notice the influx." Meanwhile Mr/Ms America sit on their duffs, being duped every two years. They vote for the one who will give them the most free stuff AND/OR the one who will replace the "evil Mr/Ms ________" who currently holds office (they are led to believe that the current mess, whatever they are told the current mess is, became a mess only after the current office holder arrived) AND/OR the one who will make those evil rich folks pay for Mr/Ms America's freedom to SIT. You see, it is the SITTING though that gives Mr/Ms immigrant all the work they want while the sitters look out their windows waiting for Mr/Ms Politician to deliver the goods to them. You all thought I was just going to blame it all on immigrants didn’t you? Hardly. If you want to get some work done, you should search for a first-generation immigrant first, not an American---and ESPECIALLY not one younger than 25 years old. I have yet to find one who will finish any job they start, PROVIDED they show up at all. They might show up if you give them a “show-up bonus”. No wait. I’ve tried that too---it still doesn’t work.

[ismilemyth]

<<This will be fun. My experience with bleeding heart, all talk liberals like yourself is that when it comes right down to it as long as their job and security is not a stake the sky's the limit. But when it comes time for them to stand up they seem to be hiding somewhere with no cash to give.>> Strawman. No political leanings were revealed by the previous poster. <<First of all, define a bigot. Just how would an American live and survive in China, India, Pakistan, Russia, France, Quebec, any of this countries where "real" americans are so loved.>> I'm sorry for your confusion. Americans have and still do live in these countries for the purpose of education, employment, missionary work, cultural experience, relief and aid work...I could go on. <<Clearly we're all missing something but maybe you can enlighten us a little. The fact is if I tried to live in India and work as an IT professional I'd be as welcome as you are right now and probably killed in many parts of the world. So whose the bigot, moron?>> Once again, there are American IT workers in India. Cite a source please, where IT workers are being targeted for murder in India or other countries. <<Because I speak the truth about the Indians I have run across in the consulting world, excluding all other including Russians, Chinese, Vietnamese, Tawianese, etc. you get your nose all bent and start whining like a child. Oh those poor Indian immigrants.>> Again, cite in the previous post the statements lamenting the fate of Indian immigrants. Here's a hint. You can't. There are no such statements in that post. << Right, just exactly how much did you give in charitable contributions to third world nations last year? Mine, in the thousands, I also support real disadvantage children through World Vision. Your's, I mean you love them so much I'll bet it's a big fat zero. Give anything to the Tsunami victims for relief, eh? >> Yawn. Strawman. Again. Donation to charity does not make hateful and bigoted statements immune from criticism. Padshore's choice of supported charities does not diminish his or her right to respond to your remarks. <<A real American is any American born and bred in this country>> Sooo...the first members of your family to arrive don't qualify. << through it's own educational system and that includes second generation immigrants AND is LOYAL to this country. You can become a citizen of this country and as long as your loyalties are to this country and it's people then fine. But if you're Japanese and will only buy Toyota because it benefits the homeland and who you really consider your people then go back home! >> Helpful information, many foreign auto manufacturers have American based manufacturing plants and employee Americans at many levels. Buying foreign can and does benefit Americans. Likewise, many American manufacturers purchase from foreign suppliers and outsource to foreign countries. Buying American can and does benefit foreigners. Your lack of understanding of global economy is appalling. <<The fundamental difference between immigrants that are American and helped build this country to the whining saps like yourself is that they were men and women who really cared about others not just their own self-interests. Come to the country and assimilate.>> First, you have no proof of Padshore's country of origin or resident status. Show me proof of assimilation by previous immigrants. If this was true, there would be no China Towns, no ethnic restaraunts, no Greek, German, or Italian neighborhoods with stores featuring ethnic items with prices frequently displayed in both English and at least one other foreign language, no Octoberfest celebrations...again I could go on. Does your aversion to cultural expression apply to everyone? Or is it related to skin color, or some other factor? <<You're whining about the turn of the century immigration which has about as much relevance as your arguments.>> Very relevant. It illustrates your hypocrisy. <<Hmmm, if you love immigrants so much why not go to France, they are having a wonderful time right now with the Muslim population, wanna fix that too, with your big heart.>> Again, no relevance to this discussion. <<What immigration is left is those people who cannot or will not help change their own country for the better and in a large part greed is the main driver to come here.>> Seeking improvements in salary and employability have always been major reasons for immigration to foreign countries. <<Come to America, displace workers, I work for pennies hire me not REAL Americans. You're an idiot, it happens to every sector not just IT. I have a friend in construction working for 30 years who has a difficult time now thanks to all the "immigrants", er I mean according to you "Americans" that will work for next to nothing.>> Loss of labor in construction to illegal labor is apples an apples and oranges comparison to outsourcing jobs. <<Name one outsourced job that requires intense client interaction from the ground up through the complete SDLC that has been off-shored and that is in the millions and last a few years. They don't exist, what is off-shored are all the routine maintenance tasks and development that can be done with little to no client interaction. Talk is cheap, NAME it! Yes, as long as it's clearly defined through documentation it can be built but that's not client interaction, that's just following a pre-defined blueprint that they of course did not create, smarter REAL American's did that.>> Prove that absolutely no outsourced jobs that require intense client interaction ground up have never been off-shored. Even better, prove that it is an impossibility that ground up development will ever happen in an outsourced environmnet. And finally prove that there is some factor that determines that American's are "smarter". << Again, I'm still waiting for that earth-shattering list of Indian engineering accomplishments that will rock the world, and I guess so is the world. USA, USA , USA , USA!!!!! >> Indian nationals have led and participated in many succesful and groundbreaking initiatives in the areas of medicine, education, engineering etc. I suppose you're eager to credit USA USA USA for all accomplishments in the world regardless of the involvement of other countries. <<Clearly you're Indian, so my advice is if you hate REAL Americans so much then go back home.>> Prove Padshore's ethnicity and residence, or retract. << Like it out not you're countrymen are bigots, egotistical morons who managed to murder the best thing that ever happened to them and his name was Ghandi.>> You're own words define you as bigoted and moronic. In addition, I'm fairly certain that Ghandi would think you were a jerk. << I have not met one nice assimilated IT Indian male, they all down to a man had major chips on their shoulders.>> What is the correlation between assimilated and nice? How does an Indian male behave in a way that proves his assimilation to your satisfaction? Eating steak? <<Funny how none of the other immigrants act that way. >> There are no other arrogant immigrants? <<Hmmm, gosh you're smart padshore, yes of course my family were immigrants many generations ago but not one of them ever came to this country to displace Americans but to help build this country and a better life.>> Anybody at any point in time coming to America to seek employment or to start businesses were coming to participate in a competive price driven economy. The result of this was displacement of existing American workers. << My parents were born and raised here and all had deep family roots but not one ever had issues as far as loyalties to this country and neither do I. >> Well then, you and your parents should pat yourselves on the back. Congratulations on the amazing accomplishment of being born on American soil. If you were also born rich and white. Please pat yourself on the back again. <<How many foreigners have you ever worked with? Are you a 1st generation foreigner? Do you have any American friends that are considered the majority population here and I don't mean work buddies, that you are close too? How much money per year in the thousands do you give to the disadvantage that are not Indian or from your homeland? Do you have any pets, dogs, cats, birds? Indicates love of other life or do you prefer to eat them?>> I'd say all of this is irrelevant, but it is useful in illuminating your own prejudices and h atred. << Do you still speak your language especially at night from your homeland and not English?>> Many immigrants from many cultures choose to speak their home language in the home. This isn't limited to the present time, or to Indians. << Do you eschew American values and still enforce you're homeland cultural values on your family?>> All American "values" are derived from foreign cultures. << Do you honor and obey any American holidays?>> How does one obey an American holiday. Do you refuse to celebrate Christmas because it's origin is not American? << Do you belong to any American religion? >> There is no American religion. Idiot. <<Would you sing the National Anthem at a American event? Would you put your hand on your heart? Do you love America or just the money you can get? Can you recite the pledge of allegiance?>> But you said that Padshore was an Indian? Would you pledge allegiance to another country's flag or sing there national anthem? Obviously Padshore is not in your estimation a real American, so what right do you have to demand any display of loyalty. Has it occured to you that the refusal of third and fourth generation immigrants to view new immigrants as new Americans is a major reason that these new immigrants are slower to express loyalty. <<Do you give a shi% about anything you mouthed off about at all, America or just really concerned about world bigotry and peace? >> incoherent. And BTW, <<And what do you consider a "REAL" American? Is their name Geronimo, or Sitting Bull>> It sure as hell ain't padshore!</a>

[David Abramowitz]

Hassan, My post was not aimed at you, or anything that you said. Dave

[R.Daugherty]

Dave, I see software failures reported in two ways; 1- when the stock of a company takes a big hit due to poor sales, and the company pubically blames a software installation failure, and the software maker blames it on customization made, and 2- in government failures at all levels, because the information can be and is obtained, despite the best efforts to hide it. The package install failures I don't follow. It's the new software development failures I follow, and the government failures are massive new development. Many people attribute it to being the government, but we didn't have everything across the board failing when it was COBOL on the mainframe (akin to RPG on the AS/400). But now literally every software system developed since Java and web pages were the watchwords are massive failures. This has been going on across the board, at every agency, for the last 8 years or so. The amount of taxpayer's money sunk into failed web projects would be a national scandal if there weren't so many other disasters that it hasn't become well known yet. But it will. They keep changing the buzzwords, but the billions of dollars of web page software is still missing, and so is the money. rd

[R.Daugherty]

and the company pubically blames a software installation failure but generally they have to make it public before I know about it. rd

[Guest.Visitor]

The way I see it, an empire has a time to run and the US is showing signs of being on the way out! Take any empire in history (Roman, Mongol, Ottoman, British, etc.), when the population are overly proud with their accomplishments, and the echelons of power are riddled with corruption, then that empire falls. If it had been 200 years ago, some other country would have smelled weakness and invaded. These days they just invade the corporations, rape them for the cash, and leave the economy desolate. The time for an empires reign seems to be getting shorter as well, so China may only be at the top of the tree for 20 years or so before the economy shifts again. Alternatively, somebody could let their bigotry and hatred force them into war, and then we all lose!

[David Abramowitz]

It <u>would</u> be interesting if all development efforts could be tracked. This would allow implementation effectiveness to become public knowledge. Once it was public knowledge, there would be no excuse for simply following the hype. The corollary being that the CFO could no longer blame the salesperson for a project failure. Unfortunately. . . . .There is no definitive repository that could yield accurate and scientific statistical data. And so hyperbole rules and we are stuck with it. <cynicism>That is until the next latest greatest language breakthrough occurs. This of course will solve every problem for the CEO that they have with their uncooperative I.T. department, and if the CFO acts quickly, they will be able to co-opt the bothersome I.T. department before they have a chance to protest things like cost, effectiveness, suitability to purpose, acutal needs, and little things like that. After all, the real reason for the failure of the last project, was that I.T. kept questioning the need for the project in the first place. It's bad attitudes like that, that are the real reason behind business failures. </cynicism> If the project is actually successful, will each employee in their varied tasks become more productive than they were ten or even twenty years ago? Dave

[Guest.Visitor]

Hmmm, reminds of retorts children use, no real valid thought provoking issues, just cherry picking quotes. <<I'm sorry for your confusion. Americans have and still do live in these countries for the purpose of education, employment, missionary work, cultural experience, relief and aid work...I could go on. >> As with most of your challenged thinking this is the same lame out-of-context retort that exists throughout your diatribe. The point was if REAL Americans in the same numbers as their Indian counterparts come here to take American IT jobs went there the Indian government would not allow it. Name these substantial non-American based corporate IT Indian jobs that large numbers of Americans enjoy? Jobs where American workers have displaced Indian workers? What does missionary work have to do with any of the discussion, fool? <<cultural experience>> - that one's too funny. ROFL! Try having original thoughts as opposed to whining oh "your so bad and such a bigot" because it's laid on the line. All that you can do is cherry pick quotes and deliver an out-of-context and repeatedly incorrect retort. So prove that the American IT worker does not have a problem with Indian IT workers here. Or even better prove that the Indian IT worker does not have a problem with the American IT worker. Either way in co-workers experience it's proven repeatedly true, we get rid of them! Comments regarding charity have to do with Americans giving regardless of income level while foreign countries like India have no real interest in helping anyone but themselves. This is proven repeatedly when any world crisis is at hand which has everything to do with how Americans show they care and not rhetoric like most other countries and yours. Comments regarding assimilation have to do with the issues that are caused with failure of large numbers of immigrants to accept American ways instead of ignore them causing further divisions. So whine all you want but Americans are not welcome in a vast majority of the world. Large numbers of immigrants like we allow here would cause major social unrest in any of those so-called enlightened countries as proven in France today. This conversation is too difficult because you lack even the basic rudimentary skills to debate. Again, instead of your diatribe, name the substantial outsourced contracts, the large numbers of American IT workers in Indian displacing Indian jobs, compare American charity with any other countries charity, prove bigotry doesn't exist in every country, prove that liberals like yourself don't spin and spin rhetoric to avoid answering the hard questions. Name calling doesn't change anything, facts are facts. Every Indian IT worker I have encountered does not want to assimilate but instead prefers to work and socialize with their own "people". And again, other immigrants I have worked with DO NOT share these same traits in the same large percentages as Indians do. Too bad, now go whine some more. As far as bigotry is concerned, again the same bleeding heart liberals like yourself constantly give lip service but then refuse to deal with the real issues, instead start name calling like padshore and yourself. But that's okay at least half the world is full of bigots, the other-half like yourself constantly whine and consistently do nothing to help. But one thing bottom line that shows caring is the level of giving without regard to income. A bigot doesn't give thousands away to support charities outside of their own country. But regardless of income, just how much charity work have you done, how much did you give last year, it's very relevant asshole when you do not have the balls to give of yourself but expect everyone else to do it for you. Take all you want about perceived bigotry but just exactly have you done to help anyone but yourself? I'll bet it's a big fat whining liberal ZERO. And by the way next time don't hide behind padshore simpleton or unless of course you are padshore which probably is true since you were so clear on what padshore said or didn't say. It's all about reflection but with a snippet miester it's not to be expected. Although the really funny thing is, I have not heard one comment of anyone's personal experience regarding immigrants taking jobs from them, friends or family. So my guess is it hasn't come close to home - yet. So as with most of these discussions the rhetoric is laid on thick. Will see.... Seems to me that's what the article is about, it's effecting someone's life close to home and I'm sure they would rather not have their livelihood outsourced.

[David Abramowitz]

It's interesting how posts like this never seem to have a real name attached to them. Dave

[Guest.Visitor]

Ah, gee Dave unless it has really escaped your notice everyone uses pseudonyms. Burying your head in the sand and attacking the messenger takes little thought. Just what have you done about stereo-typing except mouth-off? Everything I said is true and happening in the good ole USA. You can BS your way around it but bottom line when mosques and Hindu temples start appearing everywhere, America is lost. We are becoming a third world nation. But go ahead and keep pretending you're actually "protecting" poor immigrants. More left-wing liberal rhetoric. So I'm just waiting to hear how you have made anyone's life better, go ahead tell us all about your selfless work for the poor. It doesn't exist does it? What's even more interesting is you actually believe how you Dave Abramowitz actually have real impact with your tirades against Visa's. Wow, do you have Hispanic servants too, helping them by having them clean your house? Are you for or against the war in Iraq, is it okay for Hezbollah, Arabs and most of the Middle East to kill and hate the Jews, is it okay for Israel to kill innocent civilians even though we know Hezbollah hides among them, do you have any Arab "American" friends? Uh-huh sure Dave. That's why they call all this talk lip service, do nothing talkers. "Oh I'm so worldly and loving I even wrote an article about it." BUT WHAT DID YOU ACTUALLY DO WITH YOUR POCKETBOOK, WHAT DID YOU ACTUALLY DO WITH YOUR TIME, WHAT DID YOU ACTUALLY DO TO END WORLD STARVATION, WHAT DID YOU ACTUALLY DO TO HELP CHILDREN AROUND THE WORLD WHO HAVE NOTHING, WHAT DO YOU DO BUT TALK?! But fortunately as a consultant making 6+ figures and working with all manner of nationalities I don't worry at all about invading hordes. On the contrary, unlike you I escaped RPG as a day job over 10 years ago. But like it or not Indians are a pain in the ass. I'd much rather be a bigot then a hypocrite.

[ismilemyth]

<<Hmmm, reminds of retorts children use, no real valid thought provoking issues, just cherry picking quotes.>> Soooo, your posts cannot stand a point by point refutation. Anyway, I will keep my remarks (from prior postings) enclosed in << >> for the sake of clarity. I will enclose your quotes that I am responding to in <<< >>>. Further, you will notice that I have never selectively taken bits and pieces of your own words. I have responded to full blocks of text that you posted. <<I'm sorry for your confusion. Americans have and still do live in these countries for the purpose of education, employment, missionary work, cultural experience, relief and aid work...I could go on. >> <<<As with most of your challenged thinking this is the same lame out-of-context retort that exists throughout your diatribe. The point was if REAL Americans in the same numbers as their Indian counterparts come here to take American IT jobs went there the Indian government would not allow it. Name these substantial non-American based corporate IT Indian jobs that large numbers of Americans enjoy? Jobs where American workers have displaced Indian workers? What does missionary work have to do with any of the discussion, fool? <<cultural experience>> - that one's too funny. ROFL!>>> In your original post, you stated that Americans were unwelcome internationally. You mentioned that American IT workers would be murdered. Now you wish to back track and reword your own statements to "The Indian Government would not allow it". Your remarks about Americans overseas also were not limited to off shoring jobs, or the placement of Americans in jobs overseas. Therefore, my remarks regarding Americans living and working overseas and the reasons for doing so were germaine to the discussion. Retractions are accepted happily. Admissions that your previous remarks were a failed attempt at hyperbole are also accepted...begrudgingly. <<<Try having original thoughts as opposed to whining oh "your so bad and such a bigot" because it's laid on the line. All that you can do is cherry pick quotes and deliver an out-of-context and repeatedly incorrect retort. So prove that the American IT worker does not have a problem with Indian IT workers here. Or even better prove that the Indian IT worker does not have a problem with the American IT worker. Either way in co-workers experience it's proven repeatedly true, we get rid of them! >>> You have not been misquoted. Your own words have been copied and responded to. I have not and will not made the assertion that I speak for the "American IT worker". Asserting that the "American IT worker" does or does not have a problem with the "Indian IT worker", is almost as idiotic as asserting that all "American IT workers enjoy black coffee. Your statements about your co-workers experiences is irrelevant. Obviously there are shops in America where Indian and American IT workers get along perfectly well and things remain productive. Of course, if I was in HR at your company and became aware that you and your co-workers couldn't work with Indian hires, I'd probably have to face the likelihood that the problem originated with you guys. <<<Comments regarding charity have to do with Americans giving regardless of income level while foreign countries like India have no real interest in helping anyone but themselves. This is proven repeatedly when any world crisis is at hand which has everything to do with how Americans show they care and not rhetoric like most other countries and yours.>>> Your original comments about charity insinuated that Padshore had no right to comment on your remarks, and that your remarks should be immune from criticism because you supposedly make charitable donations. Now, we have more whining and disingenuous remarks. Americans give to charity, because the majority of us have the means to do so. There are exceptions, but the fact is, most Americans do consider their own needs and income before decided when if and how much they will give to charity. If you could take the time to clear up your cranial anal inversion, you'd also know that many other countries offer aid in times of crisis. <<<Comments regarding assimilation have to do with the issues that are caused with failure of large numbers of immigrants to accept American ways instead of ignore them causing further divisions.>>> Once again, define American ways. Our values, family structure, etc. are largely based on foreign construct. You should know that the issue of assimilation is almost as old as the United States itself. I think it was Benjamin Franklin that lamented the arrival of German immigrants because he believed that they would never assimilate. Instead, they came, were largely succesful, did not abandon the traditions hollidays and cusine of their homeland, worshiped in the way that they worshipped in their homeland, spoke their home language in the evenings at home (even spoke German doing business with other Germans). Same thing happened later when people lamented that Irish and Italian immigrants would never assimilate. Yet, all of these people became what you now refer to as "Real Americans". So, I ask again...Why is it that Indians (not just Indians, I could substitute, Bosnians, Kenyans, Mexicans) are expected to drop their birth cultures upon arrival in America, when previous generations of immigrants did not? Certainly we've benefitted as a country from the influence of other cultures in the past. <<<So whine all you want but Americans are not welcome in a vast majority of the world.>>> Untrue. Americans succesfully and quite often enjoybably travel and live all over the world. Have you done much, if any travelling outside of the US? <<<Large numbers of immigrants like we allow here would cause major social unrest in any of those so-called enlightened countries as proven in France today.>>> You're comparing America to France without considering the signifcant differences between the two countries. <<<This conversation is too difficult because you lack even the basic rudimentary skills to debate. Again, instead of your diatribe, name the substantial outsourced contracts, the large numbers of American IT workers in Indian displacing Indian jobs, compare American charity with any other countries charity, prove bigotry doesn't exist in every country, prove that liberals like yourself don't spin and spin rhetoric to avoid answering the hard questions.>>> You've asserted facts not in evidence, gone off on tangents, attributed political ideologies and ethnic backgrounds without proof, and consistently misquoted both myself and Padshore, but you have the hubris to comment on my debating skills. Laughable. I have no obligation to name the substantial outsourced contracts. You made the assertion that there were none. And then further asserted that there never would be any, because of some SMARTNESS that would only allow "Real American IT workers" to truly develop software from the ground up. I have no obligation to prove that there are large numbers of Americans displacing IT workers, because I never made that statement. I have no obligation to compare American charity with any other countries charity, because I made no statements relating to this. Though, I would encourage you to make the comparison on your own time giving each country fair consideration in regard to size and wealth, not simply comparing $$ to $$. I have no obligation to prove where bigotry does and does not exist. I made no statements about that. Because I know many intelligent conservatives, I won't paint you all with one broad brush. Would you like to prove that conservatives of your ilk, aren't poster children for anti-intellectualism whose sole contribution to debate of any kind is limited to sound bites, half-truths, fear mongering, hyperbole, bloated limbaughisms, and the dominance of style over substance that embarasses intelligent conservatives and makes everyone to the right appear to be backwards and rednecked. <<<Name calling doesn't change anything, facts are facts.>>> You have been plenty liberaly with the name calling. Apparently you can't handle it when people respond to your bile likewise. A fact is something that is universally proven. Your personal experience is not fact. The limited personal experiences of your family friends and coworkers is not fact. Your statement of things that are not fact, does not make them fact. <<< Every Indian IT worker I have encountered does not want to assimilate but instead prefers to work and socialize with their own "people".>>> Again, you fail to define assimilation. <<<And again, other immigrants I have worked with DO NOT share these same traits in the same large percentages as Indians do. Too bad, now go whine some more. >>> Your personal experience. Others have had different experiences. <<<As far as bigotry is concerned, again the same bleeding heart liberals like yourself constantly give lip service but then refuse to deal with the real issues, instead start name calling like padshore and yourself. But that's okay at least half the world is full of bigots, the other-half like yourself constantly whine and consistently do nothing to help.>>> The name calling was originated by you. So either retract each and every incident and apologize for each and every incident in which you've resorted to name calling, or stop bawling about it. Besides posting hate-filled rantings and "getting rid of" co-workers who have ethnic backgrounds that you dissaprove of, what have you done to help? Have you participated in any kind of events that might lead you to greater understanding of other cultures? Have you done any introspection that might illuminate your own personal flaws and shortcomings that might be behind your attitudes? I'd venture to say that the entire world is full of bigots. I could go even further and say that just about everyone one of us harbors some sort of fear, resentment, or underlying distrust or dislike of at least one group of people. That makes us human. Refusing to acknowledge this and refusing to do this self exploration to discover the reasons behind this makes people shallow and idiotic. <<<But one thing bottom line that shows caring is the level of giving without regard to income.>>> Didn't we address this earlier? <<<A bigot doesnt give thousands away to support charities outside of their own country.>>> They may, or they may not. A bigot may feel obligated because of religion or other factors to donate to foreign charity. The gift of money (or service) is not always indicative of attitude towards the people receiving the charity. Alot of people donate money to third world countries because helping the brown skinned savages makes them feel even more superior. <<<But regardless of income, just how much charity work have you done, how much did you give last year, it's very relevant asshole when you do not have the balls to give of yourself but expect everyone else to do it for you.>>> This has nothing to do with the debate. Once again, prove that charity work (or rather unproven claims of generous donations made on an internet forum) make your remarks immune from response and criticism. That is what is relevant to this debate. <<<Take all you want about perceived bigotry but just exactly have you done to help anyone but yourself? I'll bet it's a big fat whining liberal ZERO.>>> The only proof that you've ever helped anybody but yourself is your own remarks. If that wins a debate, I would like to assert here and now that I am wealthy, a size 4, and omnipotent. What are your charitable donations to the less fortunate? Boxes of bootstraps? <<<And by the way next time don't hide behind padshore simpleton or unless of course you are padshore which probably is true since you were so clear on what padshore said or didn't say. >>> I will only address this idiotic remark, because of it's potential impact on the reputation of another poster. I am not Padshore. I do not know Padshore. My only take on Padshore's remarks are the words in his/her post. You responded to Padshore's with misquotes and rantings, much of which had nothing to do with any statements that were actually made by Padshore. Case in point, you made remarks about Padshore whining about "poor Indian immigrants", but there were no such remarks in Padshore's post. In order to illuminate your idiocy, I addressed remarks you made to and about Padshore. This is what happens on public forums. Deal with it or head to Fox news or Nascar Dads. <<<It's all about reflection but with a snippet miester it's not to be expected. >>> Can't own your words? Too bad. <<<Although the really funny thing is, I have not heard one comment of anyone's personal experience regarding immigrants taking jobs from them, friends or family. So my guess is it hasn't come close to home - yet. >>> Personal experience is not the be all end all you seem to think it is. Intelligent conversation depends on one's ability to consider ones own personal experience along with contradicting personal experience and universal fact. <<<So as with most of these discussions the rhetoric is laid on thick.>>> Are you capable of seeing outside of this exchange? Are you able to see that the rhetoric is just as thick on your side of the issue. <<<Will see.... Seems to me that's what the article is about, it's effecting someone's life close to home and I'm sure they would rather not have their livelihood outsourced.>>> Nobody would, and I'm open to discussion about outsourcing and the damage it does to the American worker. But, hate is hate, bigotry is bigotry. Both do nothing to further a point of view.</a>

[R.Daugherty]

Dave, just think of all the damage that would be done if guys like that took control of our country... rd

[Guest.Visitor]

Shannon, I just read your article and I couldn't agree more. I have been working in the IBM "Mid-range" arena since 1986 and you nailed it right on the head. Luckily, I was able to survive, mostly because of networking and "friends" in the business as opposed to my knowledge base. I really enjoyed your article. Thanks, Ed Hofstaedter "RPG Programmer/Analyst"

[boomer400]

In the end, I suspect, most corporations (the groups that can afford to have System i/i5/iSeries/AS400) are going to be international/multi-nationals and can "afford" to have Indian developers. For that matter, those developers could be from any other nation that decides to have a decent scientific/technological background and has cheap resources. So, it's not a case of the "Indians" being THE problem or H1Bs or visas either. It's really a case of corporations (even MBs too) deciding that on a quarterly basis, it's cheaper to hire outside of the US than inside. The whammy is ,of course, our iBox is an expensive one that you can't buy at Best Buy or CompUSA. So, there aren't many iBox guys around to do work on it. And training is cheap in India, China, Tajikistan or where ever. The problem is that beyond the quarterly basis, it's probably not a good idea for most businesses to have their software knowledge outside of their country. Why? Because that knowledge is dollars spent by those companies, dollars developing knowledge that costs money and has its' own inherent value. The concept of outsourcing software and development works for multi-nationals, I suspect, because those companies are already accustomed and prepared to have multi-national knowledge trading. On the other hand, if I were buying a package like SAP or something like that, outsourcing might make sense to as the software is already a commodity product (albeit complicated beyond reason); your business processes aren't going to be compromised much. But, if you have your own thing going, outsourcing doesn't seem to make much sense; assuming(;>)) that your business is a competitive one why disperse your knowledge and processes overseas? I can only think that in the competitive environment of quarterly reports that the overhead of IT is too easy to push somewhere cheaper. But the question remains, at what point does knowledge of how things work and what they do (whether it's software or hardware) become too costly for us to let go as a nation? To some extent, I think that the all-too-common refrain of "keeping current" and learning the latest techniques and education is actually somewhat of a disservice to US technical people. The reality is the same technical information is available to others overseas and, possibly cheaper. When politicians and "cognoscenti" start babbling about "keeping current", I think it's just the simplistic kneejerk answer to a very difficult problem and quite the dodge.

[S.ODonnell]

Thanks everyone for your great comments and observations! I had no idea this article would impact so many people. It was written purely out of my own frustration at trying to find a job after having a contract terminated prematurely due to third-world influences. For anyone who is interested, I do have a new job now, actually a really great job, in Wisconsin, where my wife and our zoo of cats and siberian huskies, are moving. To those of you who are still looking for AS/400 programming jobs, I wish you nothing but the best of luck and offer you this one piece of advice: "Don't be afraid to step out of your comfort zone. You may have to move to another part of the country if the job is worth going to. If you try to wait for a job where you live, you may be in for a long wait for something that may never materialize."

[MCWebsite.Staff]

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