Over 40 hours is time and half

[Guest.Visitor]

I just read a very vague newpaper article that stated that a law passed last September entitles people who write software to receive overtime pay for work in exceess of 40 hours per week for those being paid less than around $45 per hour. Anyone know the skinny on this. My gut feeling is that there are so many stipulations that it doesn't apply to most people.

[nycsusan@hotmail.com]

I suspect there are a lot of exemptions to this. Texas (where I live and work) is notorious for giving employers a LOT of rights over employees. They basically own us. I HOPE this is true!

[Guest.Visitor]

News to me. Besides, if you are a full time, salaried, exempt employee, I would suspect that you automatically give up your right for overtime, regardless of your title. Anyway, if you applied for this, I would think that sooner or later, they will get rid of you, so that a person who can get the job done in 40 hrs or less can be hired. The world just ain't fair to everybody. -bret

[Guest.Visitor]

Generally speaking, there are all kinds of exceptions to this rule. A friend and I looked into this in Illinois about 10 years ago (after we'd been working 75 hour weeks for months on end because mgt was too cheap to hire more help). We scoured the labor laws for our state and found what we'd thought was a loop hole that would allow exempt employees to be paid overtime for software development. I don't remember exact details, but seems like it had something to do with not being a "professional" employee such as a doctor or a lawyer. Anyway, the loophole wasn't much of a loophole as it turned out that it was at your employer's discretion as to whether or not they'd pay you overtime. I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for the government to ensure that you get paid overtime.

[Guest.Visitor]

I believe the term in 'Indentured Servant'. Texas does not allow employees many rights that other states do. Gov. Bush has requested changes to this chattel system, but the Texas reps and legislatures, seem to believe that employees should have zero rights. I have a friend who was hired away from a company. After being gone for three weeks, the former employer approached her and asked her to come back at a significant increase in salary and title. She talked with her new employer who did not want her to leave, but offered her the job back if it did not work out. Two weeks after going back, the manager fired her. She sued and the judge said that the employee or employer have the right to quit/fire without adavance notice. Since Texas is a 'Work at Will' state, there was no infraction by the employer. She then tried to approach it from the fact of loss of income. The judge said that she would not have lost any income if she had not quit the job she took in the first place. The argument was that the hours were the same and that the employer who hired her back, knew she would have to quit her other job. The judge said there is no statute that says you must quit a job to take another, and that it was not the fault of the firing company, that the other job did not have a night shift. But hey! We dont have state income tax or tax on food or vitamins. -bret

[cwscholbe@dstsystems.com]

And this is the Governor that people think should be President of the U.S. I DON'T THINK SO!!!

[Guest.Visitor]

<PRE>Chris Scholbe wrote: And this is the Governor that people think should be President of the U.S. I DON'T THINK SO!!! </PRE> Chris, If I read Brett's posting correctly, he said that Gov. Bush wants to change these laws and that the Texas state legislature is opposing him. Are you saying Bush shouldn't be elected president because he is for helping the salaried worker? I'm not sure I'm reading your post correctly.

[Guest.Visitor]

This is the reason I always was 'employed' as an Engineer. At one time this also allowed certain deductions on your Fed income tax. But I think this was eliminated by the LBJ regime. bobh

[Guest.Visitor]

My deep thoughts ... worth absolutely nothing to anybody except myself. I wouldn't ever work for a company that didn't see me as a valuable asset to the organization. If I am just another individual on the payroll and my manager can care less what I am doing, then it is "Bye bye Charlie." I was in a similar situation where my hours were excessive. My boss saw this concern and bumped up my salary accordingly. Management needs to grow up and get a grip on reality. If they don't meet the needs of employees, then they aren't performing their job effectively. ;~)

[Guest.Visitor]

There have been several new laws recently enacted. IANAL but, The laws vary from state to state, and application of the law appears to vary from instance to instance. As an independent, my own law states that if I'm working anywhere past 7:30pm, the pizza is on <u>you</u>! Dave

[Guest.Visitor]

Not going to debate the political arena here, but: The point was intended to reflect the fact the Gov. Bush wants more rights for the workers in Texas. Right now, we really have few. His push for rights came right after he took over office from Ann Richards. The legislature is dragging it's collective feet. We can take and leave jobs at anytime. Employers can hire/fire us at anytime. Without a legal employment contract however, the employee is the one who gets screwed by the system. I don't like the government sticking it's nose it private matters, but there are times, when the machine should operate for what it was intended to be: A mediator and protector of the people. Perhaps a debate site before the Presidential Debates would be a good thing. I like to hear arguments from both sides. I don't have all the facts, I don't think any of us here do, but collectively, we have enough facts to know what will happen should either major party candidate be elected. -bret P.S. **G.W. for President** (That's not a suprise coming from me is it?)

[Guest.Visitor]

Bret Myrick wrote: P.S. **G.W. for President** I'd vote for George Washington also, but last I looked, he was still dead :-) Dave

[Guest.Visitor]

Scott, The problem is not generally with us exempt personnel. Yes we put in long hard hours, sometimes 50 or more per week. 50 is cool with me a couple times a month, but to do this every week would be a pain. The people who get really shafted are the poor grunts in the plants. I dislike unions with the proverbial purple passion, but in states like Texas, I can understand why they would be welcome by the employees and shunned by the employer. In Oklahoma the whole process is screwed up (IMHO). If I were a salaried employee, working in a union shop, I don't have to be part of the union, but I have to pay full union dues to gain employment. If I decide to quit the contribution to the union, I am out of a job. Now here's the good part: If the union strikes, and I decide to strike with them, I get no union funds/salary/benefits or anything. I'm not part of their union. If I continue to work, during the strike, the union has the right to refuse my union contributions, therfore makeing me inelligible to work in a union shop. This is a case where the union influence is too darn strong. Gov. Keating of Oklahoma has been trying to get this changed for 8 years now, but again, the legislature there, is dragging it's feet or refuses to here the case. -bret

[Guest.Visitor]

Wondered who would jump on that one. Kinda figured it'd be you or Susan. If she's not too busy getting ready to vote in the 'Best Beach' contest. -bret

[nycsusan@hotmail.com]

Bret, I have lived in Texas for over 12 years now (note: sympathy cards can be sent to my hotmail account <ha ha>) and I have not heard about George W. SHRUB doing ANYTHING about this or anything else that is important to me. What exactly is Gov. SHRUB in favor of changing, and when did he take this stand? After he announced his intentions to run for Prez? By the way, Gov. SHRUB is FOR increasing the quota for H1-B visas. It would seem odd if he would take the side of the average schmoe in this "right to work" issue.

[Guest.Visitor]

Bret, Did you pull OK out of nowhere or what? Cause that's where I am. Coincidence?????

[nycsusan@hotmail.com]

Scott wrote: "I wouldn't ever work for a company that didn't see me as a valuable asset to the organization. If I am just another individual on the payroll and my manager can care less what I am doing, then it is "Bye bye Charlie." I was in a similar situation where my hours were excessive. My boss saw this concern and bumped up my salary accordingly." Where do you work Scott? If you have found such a place, then I'd like to send in my resume. (Not really joking here, I AM actively looking.)

[Guest.Visitor]

Susan, It is a long story. You can send me an e-mail at swalker@harolds.net

[Guest.Visitor]

It is unfortunate that the Guv is pro-h1b (IMHO). I have not looked into the details of this issue and his stand on it. In todays media, he could have said that he was for the h1b, but want's it scaled down. This in it's truest form is for h1b, but I don't know the depth of it. This is a subject I hope comes out in the debate. I would like to know both parties stance on the subject. I am not against H1B so much as I am against the blatant loopholes that allow the employer to 'lie' about requirements and bringn in help that is not needed for anything other than forcing wage control on the U.S. Nationals. -bret

[Guest.Visitor]

Nope. Am from Ada, OK. The home of the East Central Tigers and the Ada High Cougars. Used to work as Manager for Perfection HY-Test in Purcell, before they decided to sell the company, and then not sell, and then sell, and then not sell and then sell. I got tired of the who knows what's gonna happen attitude after about 5 years and left to become a JDE consultant. Where you located? Farm-Fresh? :) -bret

[Guest.Visitor]

Yeah, but you wanna be a Javite, don't you? -bret :)

[cwscholbe@dstsystems.com]

But he WASN'T able to do it, so how effective would he be as president.

[nycsusan@hotmail.com]

Yes, kinda sorta. Actually, Java is an aside skill. My ideal job would be multimedia development using Macromedia (Director, Flash, Dreamweaver) and/or Adobe (Photoshop, Illustrator, After Effects, Premiere) products. If there is coding involved besides within those products, then I would want to use Java, JavaScript, XML, etc. I have already trained or am scheduled to train in ALL of the above, all I need is for some manager to give me a chance to use my new skills. Just 90 minutes ago, I went over my manager's head to see the HR person about this exact issue. In my Java cert. exam study class, I run into GROUPS of disgruntled employees from my company all saying the same thing ... they are spending their own time and money to get trained in the "hot" skills, but they can't find a manager within the company who is willing to give them a chance. The HR woman just nodded and said "I know". Jeez, that helps a lot. But then again, why should they help us? This is Texas, and they OWN us.

[cwscholbe@dstsystems.com]

If you're paying the dues, why not join the union?

[Guest.Visitor]

Good point, but an equally good point for the Shrubery is that VP Gore wants to enforce education reform, and social security because it's so bad. He and his buddy have had 8 years to do it, but it ain't happened yet. Let's see what was proposed and what got done: 1) Create the 'Midnight Basketball' so inner-city kids could have a safe place to congregate. The program was shut down by presidential decree 14 months later, because a study by his aministration proved that it gave access to little kids to drug dealers, gangs and such. 2) Homosexuality in the Armed Forces. Didn't happen. The policy remains much the same. Go to http://www.armytimes.com and read the story of Lt. May of Arizona. No progress in this matter. (I am opinionated on this matter. As a current servicemember, I am concerned about the 'open' showers and toilets with no doors or dividers. This gives too much opportunity to peek. This is why we segregate the female soldiers from the male soldiers. If someone is willing to die in combat to protect the U.S. I don't care about their personal life. The privacy issue is the big thing here) 3) Medicare Reform. Nada 4) Patients rights and insurance coverage for all, regardless of income. No rights have changed. Under the current administration, you cannot sue an HMO because they are 'FOR profit' organizations. The U.S. Supreme Court upheld this. Only two justices said you should be able to sue. They were both Reagan/Bush appointees. Billy Boys' said the HMO had the rights. No children have been affected by this. Monies were channeled to already existing public clinics, and some blue cross/shield insurers, but who paid? We did. Look at the increase in our HMO/PPO and private insurance rates in the last six years. If there is such a surplus out there, why not help subsidize the middle class. 5) Al Gore stated that anybody who makes a salary (combined or otherwise) of 60K is rich. Not so. Make 60K a year, try to raise two kids in suburban CA or NYC and maintain two vehicles and still have enough money to make vacations each year and birthdays and aniverserarys and Christmas. It don't happen very well. Also, you get a huge dent in your taxes if you are married. 6) Decreased violence in school. More school violence has erupted since the non-dynamic duo have been in office. A statement was made by Mr. Gore two weeks ago, that Hollywood and the entertainment industry must be held accountable. Since then, Mr. Gore has attended a 5 million dollar fundraiser given by the entertainment industry, and has stated that his administration "Will not censor.." them. I think Vito Corlieon would have called this "Protection money". The rest of us call it extortion and lies. Sometimes I like to argue for either side of the issue. I try to do so without leaning to my personal feelings. I welcome all presidential topics. Next! -bret

[Guest.Visitor]

Lock stock and barrel.... -bret

[Guest.Visitor]

Chris, Some people just do not want to be part of the union. My brother-in-law who works for the Postal Service does not want to be part of the union, but he has seen those who are not, be systematically fired. There's always a good reason, such as: Late for work; Talking too much; you name it. Someone can nail us all for something. Some people see this as an attack on their first ammendment rights to Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Association. The fact that they are Forced to do something that they would not normally do just bothers some people. If you want to be part of the union, that is your choice, but to not want to belong, but be forced to pay the full dues anyway, is robbery IMHO. -bret

[Guest.Visitor]

In the last few years I have wished I was working at one of the big three in a union. I would not mind getting a $6,000 or $8,000 bonus check for doing what I was suppose to do. I hear too many people who work for the auto industry say (brag) they may actually work 3-4 hours then play checkers, or go to the fitness room for the rest of their shift. They get paid triple time for working on holidays. I have never heard one complain about their beeper going off during dinner or a special family event, because some operator keyed in the wrong date or ran the wrong job. And none that I know of have to be concerned about paying back college loans.

[cwscholbe@dstsystems.com]

I have to agree that if you pay the dues, whether you want to or not, you should get all the protection/benefits they provide. The real shame is that the workplace is still such that some people still feel the need to have unions. We can argue whether unions have too much power etc, but until employers create a truely beneficient(sp) workplace, unions will be needed. There are some companies that truely believe that their workforce is an asset to keeping their business profitable and reward and treat them appropriately. We wish these were the majority instead of the minority. One thing we should remember, whether we are pro or anti union. If it weren't for unions we wouldn't enjoy many of the benefits that we do today. Things like vacations and paid medical. Companies only provide benefits to us to entice us NOT to join unions. It's an interesting balancing act that is slowly chip tipping away from the emplyers side as they slowly chip away our benefits. When it gets bad enough, we may start looking at unions in a different light.

[Guest.Visitor]

George, Your statement is exactly what I am talking about. It is the choice of the person. Being from a military background as a child and adult, I have not had many of the freedoms the civilian world has had. Not to imply that I don't like the military and it's purpose. As a soldier: We can't associate, assemble, or campaign against or for a candidate. We may donate time and money, but cannot take any overt action which may be construed as endorsing a candidate. A soldier and his/her immediate family are also restricted from making negative comments about any current sitting president or vice president. There is a grey area with Guard and Reserve members because they are not technically on active duty, except during their monthly meeting and annual 2-3 week training. During the time they are not 'serving', they may assist candidates, but make no personal statements of support for the candidate. I for one, would like some of the union benefits as well. I'd like triple time for the 2:30 a.m. phone call because some knucklehead disabled a profile or spilled coffe in the printer (again!). -bret

[Guest.Visitor]

Chris, I have no real beef with any union. They have never affected me, because I was either in the Army, where there ain't no such thing, or because I was an exempt, salaried employee. Also, unions made this nation. The coal miners needed a union to represent them. The unions themselves are a good thing in most cases. If the grunt in the field could get an employment contract with the employer, I bet he or she would do that instead in many cases. My concern with the union is that they are able to set minimum salaries for employees. This sounds good, but if those demands are not met, they can call for a strike. What this does is keep someone from going to work for less than the union has agreed on. The union says it's to keep unskilled workers from undercutting wages of a skilled UNION worker. The employer says it's a ploy to boost union involvement and ultimately union dues. Who is right and who is wrong? Most likely both have truth and liberally sprinkled with half-truths to make their argument. Unions themselves are not bad, but they are only as good and helpful as the people running them. -bret

[cwscholbe@dstsystems.com]

Bret, I seems as though we are called upon everyday to do something for someone else that may be an inconvience to us. We donate monies to help hungry children in Africa etc. We are a nation that helps others, at least I hope we still are, and sometimes that means we are inconvienced in some way. I don't have a problem with this as long as the cause is just. AND I REALIZE THAT THIS CAN BE VERY SUBJECTIVE. Just because we may be beyond the concern as to a minimum wage soesn't mean that it isn't a just cause. And god forbid that we ever have to change jobs and now it IS an issue for us. There are a lot of things I don't like about some of the unions in todays world. But until employers consistently treat workers appropriately/fairly, they will have a place in our society, and I will support them.

[Guest.Visitor]

Unions are an explosive topic. One aspect that has not been mentioned as part of this thread is <u>Collective Bargaining</u>. To me this is the entire crux of unionism, and deserves a greater mention than hours and benefits. <soapbox> In a previous life, I was a member of the Musicians Union, and AGVA. Empirically, the benefits far outweighed the costs. I also believe that in the 30's and 40's Unions supplanted the need for going overboard with socialism. Perhaps one reason the communists never took a foothold in the 30's was strong unions. Today, data processing professionals have had legislation thrown against them left right and center. Our elected representatives would never even think of proposing such legislation to a field that was unionized. </soapbox> Dave

[Guest.Visitor]

Bret wrote, <font color=blue>If someone is willing to die in combat to protect the U.S. I don't care about their personal life.</font> Bret I think we should care that another personal life is rewarding and fulfilling. Your pat phrase toward gay men, "I don't care about their personal life," smacks of bigotry.

[Guest.Visitor]

As will I. It is not the union I support, but the idea behind it. It's goals to help the worker is what is important. As for minimum wage: I hate the minimum wage. Everytime it goes up, so does everything else. The poor are still hurting and will still hurt when there is a raise in the min. wage. The same is true for the military. January 1 is the normal time of year that the military gets it's pay raise. January 1 is also the time of year that your rent is increased if you live off post (around a military installation). Without fail, my wife and I had an increase of 1-5% every year I was in the Army. Every year, our rent increased by 3-10%. Guess where the raise went. How many people lose when the Government forces us to enact legislation meant to help everyone? Everyone, because there is no one solution for everything. -bret

[Guest.Visitor]

Gene, It was not meant as such. I respect an individuals right to do what he/she wishes as long as it's legal and does not interact with those who don't wish to associate with that lifestyle. My statement was meant to declare my neutral feelings for this. It makes no difference to me if someone is gay or not. If a person truly wants to be a soldier, regardless of sexual preference, and they are willing to fight beside me, then more power to them. If someone wants to make a political statement, then they are little use to me and are then detrimental to unit cohesion. I personally know about seven person in the Army and Airforc (Active and Guard/Reserve) who are homosexual. Men and women. I have a beer with them and have visisted establishments which cater to their particular taste. Likewise, they are invited to go with me when I go to a more 'traditional' extablishment, which several have on more than one occasion. As a rule, I don't judge people by what they do (Except for murderers and child molesters) but rather by who they are as an individual. As with any social order, there are those I don't pal around with, but to be fair, I don't pal around with many heterosexuals, just because I don't like their lifestyle. My bigotry runs more to the issue of patriotism. If a person is not willing to fight for the religious belief, their country, their family or way of life, then they are pretty much useless to me. I don't mean blood and guts battle necessarily, but a philosophical one at least. It is unfortunate that we Americans, who as Bill Murray said about Americans in 'Stripes', that we "were kicked out of every decent country..", and founded a free country only to be so bigoted ourselves. -bret

[Guest.Visitor]

Tom, Certainly the "overtime" laws are different in each state. In California, overtime laws only apply to hourly employees. Any single day over 8 hours, and any single week over 40 hours is considered overtime in California and you are entitled to pay that is 1.5 times your normal hourly rate. However, having said that, I don't know of ANY programmers that are considered hourly employees. Most are considered "exempt" employees. Exempt means exempt from the overtime laws. Exempt employees are paid a fixed salary whether they work 1 hour or 80 hours in a week. And, of course, none of the above rules apply to non-employees such as contractors. Chuck

[Guest.Visitor]

Yes, CA does have some pretty strange laws, but my military buddies in CA love the one that says that an employer MUST pay them while they are gone for their monthly 2-3 day meeting and their yearly 2-3 week training. The only problem, is that some folks in the Guard/Reserve are having trouble finding employment. Seems they have everthing the employer is looking for, except for one small thing, but thanks for applying and we'll keep your resume` and application on file. There's always away around something. -bret

[Guest.Visitor]

Hi, I am Dutch, but please don't think that it is not important to us Dutch who becomes the next Prez. of the U.S.A. We are influenced in every way you can imagine(as are the people all over the world), to an extent that I think the Americans still do not fully see. From oil-prices via trade-wars to military matters(NATO and all). So here's one or two questions : <soapbox> Someone mentioned the cost of maintaining two cars(?!?!?). Two Cars ? Is this normal/average ? Is it a well-known fact in the States that the average American uses six times as much resources in his/her lifetime than the average African ? Do they know that the States have to highest output of pollution of ALL 'civilized' countries ? Could this have anything to do with the price of petrol in the States ? Over here in Europe a litre of petrol now costs around $ 1.25(that's in dollars yes...). Of course I know about the American way of life. But if foreigners could vote, lots of Dutch would very probably vote for Ralph Nader. And not just because of the environmental issues. At least he is not afraid to go on David Letterman. Damn, he even made sense there. </soapbox> No offense to anyone present intended of course. Rob.

[Guest.Visitor]

EEC law says you should not work more than 48 hours a week. Trouble is when I started my new job I had to sign an opt out clause on this.

[Guest.Visitor]

In the Netherlands it is either contractually agreed upon to do a certain amount of overtime for free, or it is simply illegal for any boss to demand more than 10 hours of overtime per week(I think, it might even be per month) without pay. Should an employer fire an employee, the employee can sue the employer AND will almost always win. Free-lancers and other free enterprise people negotiate it in their contract. Although with the current employee-shortage in IT, they virtually always get more than a 100 % pay for overtime. Rob.

[Guest.Visitor]

Rob, I was the one who made the statement about maintaining two vehicles. No I don't think this is average, but there are many, my guess is 40%, families who have two incomes, rarely work at the same ofice. Therefore, two vehicles. I realize that the idea of two vehicles may be associated with big rich individuals, but I can assure you, I don't fall into that category at all, and neither do the majority of the population. I was in Holland a few months ago. Spent a day in Amsterdam taking pictures up and down the river. Stayed away from the park most of the time :) I had been there for several weeks about ten years ago. I was amazed at the number of bicycles there are there. Could not hardly drive through the town without getting run over by a bike, bus or train. I am glad that other people around the world look to our elections as important. I too, follow the elections and turnover of other countries. Some of it because of the soldier in me, and the other because World Leaders, do affect the whole world. Who in their right mind would have thought that the current Secretary General of the U.N. would have come from a country that we civilized people used to pay attention to, only when we had a war to fight? BTW, your country is definately not overrated in beauty and friendly people. -bret

[Guest.Visitor]

Ken, I've never heard of this. In my 18 years in programming, I've never heard of this. The Army certainly has never heard of this ;| -bret

[Guest.Visitor]

Hi Bret, >I was the one who made the statement about maintaining two vehicles. No I >don't think this is average, but there are many, my guess is 40%, families >who have two incomes, rarely work at the same ofice. Therefore, two vehicles. That's what I mean : no reasonable public transportation then ? >I was amazed at the number of bicycles there are there. Could not hardly >drive through the town without getting run over by a bike, bus or train. Well, Amsterdam is definitely NOT the most perfect town for a car ! But OTOH indeed, they have tramlines, busses, taxis and bycicles there. BTW, next time you are here, if you want a tour of 'Life outside Amsterdam' just drop me a line. I live about 20 miles down the road. >I am glad that other people around the world look to our elections as >important. I too, follow the elections and turnover of other countries. Some >of it because of the soldier in me, and the other because World Leaders, do >affect the whole world. Who in their right mind would have thought that the >current Secretary General of the U.N. would have come from a country that we >civilized people used to pay attention to, only when we had a war to fight? I agree, but I still say that the U.S.A. has a disproportionate amount of influence on the 'Global Village'. This would not be a bad thing if the leaders would also be of disproportionate quality. Sadly however, this turns out not to be the case. I have absolutely nothing against the U.S.A. As a matter of fact I intend to visit some www.h2g2.com-friends in Alabama early next year. But the fact remains that although you did have Kennedy, Lincoln and Washington, you also had : R. Nixon - sad story as far as I can see it. R. Reagan - Good for the U.S.A. Hell for the rest of the world for 8 years. I could explain that but it would probably take 5 pages so I won't. And not to mention 'politicians' like McCarthy, George Wallace, etcetera. Let me be very clear on this : I do not think that the average Dutch politician is any better than the American couterpart. The Dutch just can't do that much damage. >BTW, your country is definately not overrated in beauty and friendly people. Well thank you. We are also eternal critics :-) Fortunately for us we criticize ourself just as much. Nag, Nag, Nag, as Clint would say... ;-) Rob. P.S. I still don't understand why Ralph Nader only gets a fraction of the votes. There ARE still a lot of alternative people and hippies around in the States, aren't there ? And is he a reasonable person or was he exceptionally reasonable when I saw him or what...?

[Guest.Visitor]

Bret, If its the UK army I think you will find they got an opt out on this. I think this was back in the days when we used to negotiate which parts of EC law the UK was going to go with - as opposed to now when every daft Brussels edict is adopted.

[Guest.Visitor]

You raise an interesting point. As an independent, my clients are most eager to push me out the door after seven hours. It's fascinating to see attitudes change when companies are being billed by the hour for every hour. This, as opposed to paying the same amount for an unlimited number of hours. Under semi-emergency conditions, it is not untypical for me to have a high muckity-muck visitor at my desk, saying "It's O.K. Dave, we'll take care of the rest of this in the morning!". Dave

[Guest.Visitor]

Rob Baartwijk wrote: I still don't understand why Ralph Nader only gets a fraction of the votes In a word, pragmatism. The U.S. has what is essentially a two party system. 98% of all energies, outlays, and efforts are concentrated in the major parties. This helps to keep the government stable, even through times of political turmoil, when power can change hands over and over again. Unlike many parliamentiary systems, it also helps prevent disproportianate power in the hands of those who have not earned the votes. Keeping that in mind, the American public is most hesitant to cast votes for any third party candidate. TTBOMK the last third party presidential candidate to get any "electoral" votes at all, was Strom Thurmond running on the Dixiecrat ticket, back in 1948. It is most difficult to get many Americans to exercise their franchise at all. This is to our shame. Of the 60% that do vote, very few would ever waste that vote. Voting for a candidate that has no chance whatsoever of winning is often considered throwing away a vote. Please also remember, that the "Great Experiment", that is the U.S. form of goverment, mandates that votes are for a person, not a party (as in many parliamentary systems). This is winner take all. The stakes are high, and the cost is expensive. Third party candidates usually fail to compete on an even playing field, as the cost of running is tremendous. A recent notable exception to this was Ross Perot, but it also must be remembered that Mr. Perot did not carry a single state! Dave

[Guest.Visitor]

Rob, Your statements are a bit misleading. "The US is the greatest polluter of the civilized countries". We -are- quite a large country and we support a large industry infrastructure. But, there are many cities around the world that have much greater air pollution levels than our worst cities (Los Angeles and Houston). Probably the only polluting category in which we truly do lead, is the production of rubbish. Bill

[nycsusan@hotmail.com]

Dave wrote: "As an independent, my clients are most eager to push me out the door after seven hours. It's fascinating to see attitudes change when companies are being billed by the hour for every hour. " Yes, I have seen exactly what you describe. I have been employed by a couple of large corporations and I have worked with independent contractors sporadically along the way. Not only don't the contractors have to work overtime, they also almost never get paged in the off hours either. This is why I make it a point to take comp time whenever I am called in to work at night or on weekends. If they won't pay me overtime in my paycheck, then they WILL pay me with time when things settle down. It's only fair. Actually, this hits one of my buttons. Some reasons for salaried employees not working overtime are seen as more valid than others. As a single person, it seems that I am expected to put in overtime when others are not - as if my my free time is more expendible and as if I have no responsibilities. Bull! That's why I get very protective of my free time and making sure I take comp time for off hour production support.

[nycsusan@hotmail.com]

David wrote: "Keeping that in mind, the American public is most hesitant to cast votes for any third party candidate. TTBOMK the last third party presidential candidate to get any "electoral" votes at all, was Strom Thurmond running on the Dixiecrat ticket, back in 1948." What about Ross Perot in 1992? He got almost 20% of the popular vote, didn't that translate into any electoral votes? I can't remember anymore.

[Guest.Visitor]

MY '72 PONTIAC HAS TWO BUMPER STICKERS: ONE SAYS 'UP YOURS RALPH' ; THE OTHER SAYS: 'MY OTHER CAR IS A '53 PONTIAC' . I DON'T LIKE TO GET INTO POLITICS BUT 1) RALPH NADER IS A JERK 2) HE COULD NEVER LEGALLY SERVE AS PRESIDENT OF THE US, AND 3) THE S.O.B WAS BORN ON THE SAME DAY AS I WAS: 27 FEB 1934 BOBH

[cwscholbe@dstsystems.com]

Bart, We have the income and the power and the right to consume, consume consume and no one should try to limit, in any way, our right to systematically destroy this wonderful planet. We have our rights and the rest of the world can fend for themselves.

[nycsusan@hotmail.com]

Bob wrote: "2) HE COULD NEVER LEGALLY SERVE AS PRESIDENT OF THE US, AND 3) THE S.O.B WAS BORN ON THE SAME DAY AS I WAS: 27 FEB 1934" Bob, just curious ... WHY can't Ralph Nader legally serve as president? Also, my birthday is 26 Feb - THIRTY YEARS after yours! :-) Sue.

[Guest.Visitor]

Bob, What are you doing up at this time? It's about 22:40 there isn't it? >That's what I mean : no reasonable public transportation then ? Not where I live. I live about 20 miles out in the country from where I work. No train, tram, busses, etc. >But OTOH indeed, they have tramlines, busses, taxis and bycicles there. I know. I felt like the bull's eye on a dartboard until I just about figured out the flow of things. I think the U.S. sticks it's nose into too many affairs that should it should not. It tries to be the friend or guardian of everybody. With no distinc lines of negotiation, it makes it hard to keep up with who is an ally or enemy from week to week. >R. Nixon - sad story as far as I can see it. A sad situation at a sad time in history. He had to get us out of the mess we'd made in Vietnam. If we stayed, the populace hated him. If we left, the ones who sacrificed friend and family and career (not always by choice) would hate him. A hard time to be president in a country where popular demand gets you into office. >R. Reagan - Good for the U.S.A. Hell for the rest of the world for 8 years. Don't get me started. Ronnie's my man! The current administration can take all the credit they want, but Mr. Reagan is a major contributor to the fall of communism. That and a lack of cash and the value(less) Ruble. >And not to mention 'politicians' like McCarthy A sad man who had nothing to do, but scare people in his spare time. >George Wallace A product of his geographic location and outdated and uncivilised ideas. Nag, Nag, Nag, as Clint would say... ;-) Clint ain't nagging now. The jury that heard the testimony of the couple that sued him for his establishment not having access for handicapped, just aquitted him on all charges. A fine or two, but no damages to be awarded to the couple. >There ARE still a lot of alternative people and hippies around in the States, aren't there ? Just go to Vermont and Maine. They are all over the place. >And is he a reasonable person or was he exceptionally reasonable when I saw him or what...? Ralph Nader is a very well spoken and congenial person. Had the opportunity to lunch with him when I was working in D.C. about 5 years ago. -bret

[Guest.Visitor]

Bob, David Abramowitz makes a good point on this subject. I was contracting with a company and most of the people I talked to wanted to vote for Ross Perot. They ended up not doing so, because they were convinced by their boss, that that would accomplish nothing as Mr. Perot could not win anyway. What it would have accomplished IMHO, is to let the two party system know that there are more ideas out there than what they stood for as a Republican or Democrat. If only one state had carried Mr. Perot or any current third party candidate, it will be a wake up call for the two party system. One that says 'Change needs to be made in our fundimental way of thinking'. I do not endorse any of our third party candidates currently running, but I would hope that those who do, will vote for them. This is needed. BTW, if your not sure who to vote for, or if you have made up your mind and feel it can't be changed, please watch the debates. Tape them or whatever you need to do, but watch them. Even if it turns you off of my preferred candidate, make an informed choice. Don't just play follow the leader with your friends. It's your future at stake also. -bret "Not politically correct, just politically aware" myrick

[Guest.Visitor]

Bill, I agree with you about other countries being polluters as well, but having travelled everywhere except the Far East, I have to agree with Bob. There are incidents where other countries pollute the air, Mexico City is a good example, but I have never seen a country that causes such a vast amount of pollution from one coast to the other. Heck, we even pollute Canada with hydrocarbons. I'm reminded of a Mad Magazine or Cracked Magazine (Talk about pollution:) that spoofed the first Alien movie. In the scene where they discover the egg, and Cpt. Dallas and crew are marching to the site: Cpt Dallas: What is the atmosphere here? Dr: It's mostly Oxygen, Nitrogen, Argon and other inert gasses Cpt Dallas: Then why do we have to wear these stupid space suits? Dr: Because after 200 years of breathing Hydrocarbons and pollution, the fresh air would kill us dead! Seemed funny almost 20 years ago, but just might have been a prophetic statement. -bret

[Guest.Visitor]

Susan, Unfortunately, the popular vote means little to the electoral process. I have studied the darn thing for years and am not sure I understand it all. Basically, I think, the popular vote of a state is what determines who gets ALL the electroal votes from that state. Based on population, the state has more electoral votes. You can't have a tie between Maine and California because Maine has fewer electoral votes than California based on population. If the electoral votes were divided up, you could have 20% of a state for one candidate and 40% for another and 40% for another. Not a clear victory. -bret

[Guest.Visitor]

Bob, What's your point man? Don't hold back. Tell us what you really mean :) Question: Why could he not legally serve as president? -bret

[Guest.Visitor]

Chris, Are you serious? I'm no tree hugger and have zip use for Green Peace (except as practice targets for our cutters), but irresponsible actions have severe consequences. I do not want the U.S. or any government pestering me about my rights or limitations, but if I pollute my private property to such an extent that it becomes a hazard, then I should be stopped. It may be mine, but the harm is done to others, not just myself. -bret

[nycsusan@hotmail.com]

I understand HOW the electoral college works, but I don't understand WHY we still use it. Ross Perot, if memory serves me correctly, got almost 20% of the popular vote. That is to say, almost 1 out of every 5 people who voted cast their vote for him. But it's not the popular vote that wins the election, it's the electoral votes, I realize that. To get electoral votes, the candidate must win the state. If Ross didn't win a state, he would have no electoral votes. Perhaps that's what happened, I don't recall. I thought he did take Texas at least. But I guess not, from what y'all are saying.

[Guest.Visitor]

WOW !!! Did I say something ? *grin* As they say in Holland : 'It's no problem if you kill each other from time to time, as long as you keep it friendly' ;-) There has been so much response over the last two hours that I am a bit overwhelmed. I don't know if the responses were all for me but hey! Let me try and respond to some of it. Chris/Dave : >We have the income and the power and the right to consume, consume consume >and no one should try to limit, in any way, our right to systematically >destroy this wonderful planet. >We have our rights and the rest of the world can fend for themselves. :-) Yes... but that leaves me with this question : 'If people in the States value their personal freedom so much, then why do they vote for one of the two 'Biggies' instead of Taking The Liberty to vote for a new face. Even if this person is not elected you would give a strong signal to TPTB in Washinton D.C. You've gotta start somewhere. By the way : 'It is my personal conviction that a vote is NEVER wasted unless you don't vote at all. The words of Frank Z. come to mind. On every cover, at every concert you would always find the slogan : 'And don't forget to register to vote'. Susan wrote : >What about Ross Perot in 1992? He got almost 20% of the popular vote, didn't >that translate into any electoral votes? I can't remember anymore. Exactly my point : How the H*** can anyone who gets 20 percent of the voting population not be represented in at least the Senate ? In Holland we CAN vote for a person and if he/she is popular and gets enough votes the party will be forced to give him/her a seat in parliament. Not necessarily on the government but it is a start. The all-or-nothing system in the States can be very useful to get a strong government indeed, but it will also always cause clashes with the opposition. Why didn't Clinton do something with/about Medicare ? AFAIK his propositions were blocked by the Republicans. What would happen if the Republicans were also responsible for the government ? At the moment there is a coalition in Holland that consists of the Labour-party, the Liberal-Democrats and the Liberal party(which would be like the Democrats in the States). This was thought to be impossible by all parties until the early 90's. They're into their second term now... Brett wrote : >There ARE still a lot of alternative people and hippies around in the >States, aren't there ? Just go to Vermont and Maine. They are all over the >place. Uhmmm...I might go and take a look. Hippies in their natural environment...;-) >Ralph Nader is a very well spoken and congenial person. Had the opportunity >to lunch with him when I was working in D.C. about 5 years go. Right, well that's what I thought but I already saw a completely different point of view in one of the recent threads. Must be one of those people who you either like or detest. Bill wrote : >"The US is the greatest polluter of the civilized countries". We -are- quite >a large country and we support a large industry infrastructure. But, there >are many cities around the world that have much greater air pollution levels >than our worst cities (Los Angeles and Houston). Sorry Bill, not precise enough. According to international studies, the average American citizen, from birth until death, needs 6 times as many resources as the average African. The Europeans will no doubt be a bit closer to you than that. Note my use of the word 'resources'. You can build 20.000 oil-refineries that produce no waste what so ever : the more of them you have, the faster they will use up the oil-reserves. Bob wrote : >RALPH NADER IS A JERK, HE COULD NEVER LEGALLY SERVE AS PRESIDENT OF THE US. Why not, there have been jerks before who became president ? Kind regards, Rob.

[Guest.Visitor]

Bush took Texas and Oklahoma. I think that is all, but I may be (probably am) wrong. I don't like the current way the electoral college system works. I really don't understand why we have it that way, except to prevent a 50/50 issue like Mr. Milosovek is going through right now. -bret

[cwscholbe@dstsystems.com]

But it is YOUR RIGHT to trash your own property. Are you implying that you have SOME responsibility to your environment and your fellow persons? Isn't that Un-American?

[cwscholbe@dstsystems.com]

Ok everyone, I must confess that I have been a little sarcastic to make a point. <soapbox> We in the US take a heck of a lot for granted. We tend to call things rights that are really privileges. We have a right to have two cars, if we can afford them. We have a right to drive SUV's that pollute the air 10 times worse than cars. We have a right to smoke cigarrettes and blow the smoke where we please. We have the right to pollute our rivers with toxic waste, we have the right to ............. And if we don't have the "right" to do these things, we should STOP doing them. I believe that we actually have very few rights. Though I would like to add to that short list that we have the right to take care of things so that something good and useful will be around for posterity and we have the right to help others who are less fortunate. However we accomplish these things. Sometimes we require government to get involved for us to do the "right" thing. If we don't like the government involvement then we should do it on our own so that they don't have to get involved. This includes our "corporate citizens" most of all. </soapbox> Have a great day everyone Chris

[Guest.Visitor]

Rob, You wrote: >That's what I mean : no reasonable public transportation then ? I live in Southern California and I can tell you that not only is there no reasonable public transportation, it's not even remotely _possible_!!! Why? Well, you have to understand the culture here. It's MUCH different than in your native land. (I spent some time in Rotterdam a few years back.) Here are some reasons why a multi-car family is the norm. I actually have 2 cars, and soon to be 3, since I have a 16 year old in the house... - In the greater Los Angeles area there are approximately 16 million people. With that many people, you can imagine that they don't all commute to a single general location to work. That would be insane! Many commute a long distance. I have a programmer on my staff that commutes approximately 125 miles EACH WAY each day! - Emplorers are spread out all over this geographical area. As are the employees. Mass transportation can't occur because there is no central place where these people work and no central place where they live. - My wife and I both work. However, my wife also takes my youngest daughter to elementary school at 8:10, my middle daughter to middle school at 9:05 and I take my oldest to high school at 7:00 am on the way to work. All three daughters get off at different times and need to be picked up. (No school bus here because of costs.) Then one daughter goes to softball practice, one to voice lessons, one to basketball practice, etc. (This happens all 5 weekdays.) And of course they all need to be picked up. In the evenings there are PTA meetings, Choral Board meetings, etc. - I have two daughters that play travel softball, they also both play travel basketball. Mostly they have games at different places at the same time. Sometimes hundreds of miles apart. I'd like to see anyone manage that with one car and public transportation. Do you know how much equipment a softball catcher lugs around? Don't forget drinks and snacks. Would anyone seriously try to lug that on a bus line? - My wife said that on an average day she starts and stops the car 36 times. She opens the garage door 16 times. None, of which, can be accomodated by public transportation. - You can see why we're getting our 16 year old a car, she needs to take on some of the shuttle duties! A single car per family? Not even remotely possible. God, I just reread the above and made me tired! Whew!

[Guest.Visitor]

Bill, Excuse me for jumping in and correcting your urban legend here, but you said: "air pollution levels than our worst cities (Los Angeles and Houston)." I happen to live in Southerna California and it's a constant struggle to correct the misinformation about smog here. Let's see if I can. Los Angeles has the strictest smog controls in the country. Has for decades. And, it's been paying off. In 1977 we had 177 second stage smog alerts, and the air was filthy. In 1988 that number dropped to 75. By 1998 the number was 1. There have been NO second stage smog alerts since 1998. The air in Los Angeles is now CLEANER than it has been since World War II. I often travel and see a lot heavier smog conditions everywhere else than here. For example, I go to Atlanta monthly. The 2 of last 3 months when I've been there they've had second stage smog alerts EVERY DAY!!! Atlanta is where Los Angeles was in 1977! And you know what? They're doing VERY LITTLE in smog control. They still have this fantasy that it ain't happening. That L.A. is the smog capital. So, they just sit by and ignore it. City after city is like that. Chicago, Houston, Cincinnati, even Boston. I gotta tell ya, it's scary. This putting on the blinders and pointing to L.A. has got to stop! You wouldn't believe the contraints on business and consumers here in SoCal. When will the rest of the country realise that it works? When will they change the gas to be cleaner? When will the issue smog limit permits to business? California may have been the leader in smog in the past, but California is currently the leader in how to fix it.

[Guest.Visitor]

Chris, You said: "our right to systematically destroy this wonderful planet." There is absolutely NOTHING we can do to destroy the planet. The planet will be here long after all life has ceased. What you probably meant to say was, "our right to systematically alter the ecosystem which may have the effect of restricting the production of some species on earth." Of course, other species may thrive in that environment, but it probably won't be humans.

[Guest.Visitor]

Chris, Besides my religion, the only thing I would put above America is the idea of freedom. Sadly in this country, we seem to have fewer and fewer personal rights or rights as a group. As for being able to trash my own property: Yes, I should be able to trash it at will. I am also as an American, able to rob banks, kidnap children, harass others because of their creed, colour or religion. However, there consequences for my actions. If my land presents a health hazard, it should be cleaned up. If I rob a bank, I have consented to go to jail. If I kill a person, I have consented to face jail or in states which have Capital Punishment, face the death penalty. There are many freedoms, but with each freedom, there are boundries and reprecussions. Just because we are an Amercian, does not give any of us the right to discriminate (Though we do), the right to pollute (Though we do) or the right to destroy and kill (Though sadly, we do). With freedom, comes responsibility. And IMHO, if you don't act responsible or play fair, you should lose some of that freedom. -bret

[Guest.Visitor]

Chris, Whew! And here I beginning to believe I was suckered in by your other postings. Not on this subject, but the rhetoric never came through. Glad to see I can still judge some people by what they have said in the past. The bottom line is, we all have more responsibility than freedom, and IMHO, it should remain so. Although I own several guns, I don't think everybody should. Many people think that driving an auto is a right. It's not IMHO, it's a privilege. Show that you can't be responsible, and that 'right'is taken away. I don't know how it is in Holland (Bob, can you answer that?), but in Germany, the citizen, may wait years to get on the list to get on the list to get his/her license. They loved us on the military base, because we would license the German National to drive our vehicles (after some testing) and they could transfer this to their public record and accelerate the process. -bret "Not just politically aware, but wordy too" myrick

[Guest.Visitor]

Nope, No electoral votes whatsoever. Dave

[Guest.Visitor]

Bob, You really shouldn't hold back. Now tell us how you really feel :-) Dave

[Guest.Visitor]

Rob wrote: Exactly my point : How the H*** can anyone who gets 20 percent of the voting population not be represented in at least the Senate ? When the framers of the U.S. Constitution established this form of government, there was a very conscious effort that this not be a parliamentary form of government. I, for one, am not only proud of the fact that we do not have a parliamentary system, I am downright smug! BTW, I am also proud of the fact that one of my English relatives stood for MP. side note: I find it fascinating that American politicians <u>run</u> for office, and English politicians <u>stand</u> for office. - - - Make up your own joke. Another point that makes this form of government unique, is a three-way system of checks and balances. The supreme court being the third point of the triangle; The executive (president) and legislative(congress) branches making the other two points. Dave

[Guest.Visitor]

Chris Scholbe wrote: But it is YOUR RIGHT to trash your own property I, and the facts, strongly disagree. In most (not all) parts of the country, there are zoning, and local ordinances that prevent one turning one's home into an eyesore, or even not conforming. For instance, in my village, you can not let your grass grow beyond a certain number of inches. You can not have too many cars parked in your driveway. Your home can only be a certain percentage of the total property, and so on and so forth. I was about to lose out on refinancing, because I have a nine foot satellite dish. Fortunately for me, FCC regualtions on free and unrestricted access circumvented local regulations. Dave

[Guest.Visitor]

READ THE CONSTITUTION WHERE IT DESCRIBES THE EXECUTIVE; THE OFFICE IS RESTRICTED TO THOSE NATIVE BORN IN THE US. NADER ISN'T EVEN A CITIZEN I DON'T THINK??? HE IS A CANADIAN. MY SISTER'S IS THE 26TH ALSO; SHE SAYS SHE WAS 16 ONE DAY AND HAD A BABY BROTHER THE NEXT. BOBH

[Guest.Visitor]

If indeed he is Canadian, he may not run for POTUS. If his parents were Canadian Nationals who took Citizenship prior to his birth, then he is eligible to be POTUS. -bret

[Guest.Visitor]

The Federal Constitution of 1789 Clearly states that after a certain year -- maybe 1800 -- the President must have been born in the United States. As I recall he was born in Nova Scotia (?) . bobh

[Guest.Visitor]

He may have been born outside the U.S., but if his parents were American Citizens, I believe he has the right to run for POTUS, as he is a citizen. BTW, does anyone know what George Washington did after he retired from the Presidency? -bret

[Guest.Visitor]

Quote: "No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that office who shall not have attained to the age of thirty five years, and been fourteen Years a resident within the United States. " The other weird thing about this election is Dick Cheney; Electors vote for a President and a Vice-President at least one of whom shall not be a resident of the same state as that elector, so the Texas electors could only vote for either Bush or Cheney but not both. Cheney ran back to whereever; he had lived in Dallas for many years. bobh

[Guest.Visitor]

"Natural Born Citizen". I interpret this as being "Children, not of U.S. origin, who are adopted by U.S. citizens." I may be reading too much into the statement, but that is my take on the sentence. Children in the U.S. Armed Forces who are born overseas as their father and mother are stationed there, are still U.S. citizens. Likewise, if my wife and I moved to another country on contract, our children, naturally born, would still be U.S. citizens. There is a special Birth Certificate that explains what country, whey the parent(s) were there, and so forth. They do not have to immigrate to the U.S. when the parents return home as they are already citizens. -bret

[Guest.Visitor]

<font color blue>NADER ISN'T EVEN A CITIZEN I DON'T THINK??? HE IS A CANADIAN.</font> Bob, Im suprised you didnt take a little time to check this "thought" before posting it. According to the <a href="http://www.votenader.com/biography.html"> Nader2000 </a>web site: <quote>Ralph Nader was born in 1934 in Winsted, CT to Lebanese immigrants Rose and Nathra Nader</quote> David

[Guest.Visitor]

David, Thanks for the information. That was interesting ... eh, eh, eh Canadian or American, maybe Mr. Nader should just run for the president of North America and keep everyone happy, sad or whatever.

[Guest.Visitor]

The accepted interpretation of "Natural Born Citizen" is one who was born within the borders of the U.S.A. Twas ever thus. Dave

[Guest.Visitor]

David I would take the term "Natural Born Citizen" to mean a person who was awarded Citizenship through birth. As compared to someone who becomes a Citizen from the Naturalisation process. USA citizenship can be granted to individuals who have been permanent residents of the U.S. for five years or, if married to a U.S. citizen spouse, after three years. For instance my understanding is children born to USA citizens outside the USA are still Natural Born Citizens. Otherwhise you'd de-citizienised all those babies born to expatriate workers. However adoption of a foreign-born child does not guarantee the child's eligibility to immigrate to the United States. The parents need to apply once to get resident status and then apply for citizenship As an outsider what puzzles me is why the Constitution deems to make a difference between between a Natural Born Citizen and a Naturalised Citizen. David

[Guest.Visitor]

Dave, <blockquote><tt>>I find it fascinating that American politicians run for office, and English politicians stand for office. - - - Make up your own joke.<< </tt></blockquote> Yeah, and once they are elected they sleep in the office...if you're lucky...;-) <blockquote><tt>>Another point that makes this form of government unique, is a three-way system of checks and balances. The supreme court being the third point of the triangle; The executive (president) and legislative(congress) branches making the other two points.<< </tt></blockquote> Yeah, works the same way here. It just so happens we have an extra 'Senate/Chamber'. The people elect the 'Second Chamber' which can make amendments to the government's proposals and make legislation themselves that the government will have to accept(by majority of course). In effect they keep an eye out on the PrimeMinister and the cabinet. And then there is the 'First Chamber' which can only reject proposals and send them back to the Second. It's a bit like the moon's first government in 'The Moon is a Harsh Mistress' : Professor Bernardo De La Paz warned us about making it easy to make laws. Make it damned hard. He also said that we should preferably have politicians that don't want to be politicians. One of the good books by Heinlein that one... CU, Rob.

[Guest.Visitor]

Chuck, You believe in GAIA then ? Rob.

[Guest.Visitor]

Chris, "Each person should be free to pursue whatever goal he or she wishes unless it is harmful to others." Isn't that one of the most important founding-rules of the U.S.A. ? Rob. P.S. If this thread gets annoying for the readers of other threads, we could always go to www.h2g2.com. It was made for these kind of discussions. I wouldn't want the moderators to get p****ed off.

[Guest.Visitor]

Brett, <blockquote><tt>>Many people think that driving an auto is a right. It's not IMHO, it's a privilege. Show that you can't be responsible, and that 'right'is taken away. I don't know how it is in Holland (Bob, can you answer that?).<< </tt></blockquote> In Holland you have to pass an exam. Theory first and if you pass that one there's the actual driving-test. The average driver-to-be needs about 25 to 40 lessons(of about $ 25 a piece !). Doing the exam costs money too(I think somewhere about $ 200). So all in all, your driverslicense typically costs you at least $ 1.200 ! And then you start saving for a car ;-) ;-) Many people fail on the first try and have to do it again(the exam that is...). I passed the first time(about 25 % of the people do), but my sister had to take the exam 5 times before she could get her nerves under control). Rob. BTW : Is Bob an American standard abbreviation of Rob ? Several people are now calling me Bob... ;-) I hope they don't think I look like Bob Dole ! I'm a cool frood, I know where my towel is... Rob/TowelMaster.

[Guest.Visitor]

BTW folks, Isn't this thread getting too long ? Rob.

[Guest.Visitor]

Susan, The excuse they use here in Holland goes a bit like : "You don't get overtime because you can make a career here. Independents can't." When I worked for an American-based company a project(that had nothing to do with me) went wrong even before the first roll-out. So they got rid of the expensive and inadequate contractors and told me(then an apprentice-programmer) that I had to clean up the mess. So I debugged the lot for about 12 hours a day for 8 months. When everything was fine, I ended up taking some sickleave. So I had to see the company-doctor and I told him what I had done and that it had been way too much for one person. He went to HR and they wanted to know WHY I had to work so many hours. They assumed that I couldn't live up to the job ! It is the only time I ever told HR to go and F*** Off. Eventually I got a raise... Rob.

[Guest.Visitor]

David Bye wrote: As an outsider what puzzles me is why the Constitution deems to make a difference between between a Natural Born Citizen and a Naturalised Citizen. This is one of the enigmas of the U.S. constitution. AFAIK, this is the only reference to "Natural Born" in all U.S. Jurisprudence, with the exception of immigration laws. Dave

[Guest.Visitor]

David, That sounds a little dated to me. I don't think anybody would disqualify or fault a U.S. Citizen born of U.S. Citizen parents, just because he or she were born out of country. That however is interesting and I will do a little research. -bret

[Guest.Visitor]

Hey, does anyone know if Ralph is at least 35 years of age??? Maybe he just hasn't aged very well. Chris

[Guest.Visitor]

It was quite natural; consider the times. The united States consisted of people who had rebelled against the most powerful forces on earth. There was natuarally a us-them mentality; we don't want outsiders meddling in our affairs. The attitude persists -- and is inculcated in many of our laws --to this day. bobh PS: Don't flame me about the small 'u' in united; that's the way Mr Jefferson wrote it.

[Guest.Visitor]

Rob, >>BTW : Is Bob an American standard abbreviation of Rob ? Several people are >>now calling me Bob... ;-) I hope they don't think I look like Bob Dole ! Bob is for some reason a term I grew up with for people named Robert. In our case, it's only because I'm a terrible spellar :) Never met a Bob I didn't like, except for that stupid W95 instructor! -bret

[Guest.Visitor]

Ralphs getting along in years. I remember seeing Nader and his Raiders on TV (BW only those dayes) when I was a kid. He was in his 30s or 30s then. If he aged at the same rate I did, he's gotta be at least 50. -bret

[cwscholbe@dstsystems.com]

We have freedom to do many things, but when we abuse that freedom the government steps in, as they should. Most of the time when we abuse our freedoms it is at the expense of someone else, and that is where we (as a society) must draw the line.

[Guest.Visitor]

He's from 1934. Rob.

[T.Holt]

<font color=blue>This is Texas, and they OWN us. </font> I'm sorry to hear this. I thought that owning another person's labor was abolished in the US 135 years ago. Maybe y'all should move to Mississippi, where I am free to quit a job any time I want to (although a 2-week notice is common courtesy) and accept a job with anyone willing to hire me at whatever terms we can agree on. I'm also free to go into business for myself.

[nycsusan@hotmail.com]

Ted, Besides very favorable tax laws, there is a reason why so many corporations are relocating their headquarters to Texas. Employers have a lot of rights here, particularly over salaried (v. hourly) employees.

[Guest.Visitor]

Hi Ted, Of course we can do all that in Texas also. In fact all 50 states and D.C. I believe. Two weeks is also a common courtesy here. The real issue here is just how much protection courts in Texas allow employees. The Governor has been trying to change this in his two terms, and to be fair, so did former Governor Ann Richards. The problem is the same as always. Big company money buys a lot of congressional and local political seats. I know that fighting big business is not what G.W. is renowned for, but he actually has tried introducing three bills on this subject in his two terms. All were shot down in legislative sessions. -bret

[Guest.Visitor]

I went to the Department Of Labor's web sight and looked at the Fair Labor Standard Act of 1938. It shows an amendment in 1996 that says computer systems analyst, computer programmer, or software engineer that is earning less than $27.63 and hour shall receive time and one-half for working more than forty hours a week. I could not find anything newer than that. I am never sure if I am reading that stuff correctly.

[nycsusan@hotmail.com]

I don't think this applies to salaried employees.

[Guest.Visitor]

Nothing ever applies to salaried employees... That's why they're labled "Exempt". You're Exempt from this; Exempt from that; Exempt from the other :) -bret

[Guest.Visitor]

I think it does apply to salaried employees. Our business manager just came back from a seminar on this and he was visibly upset.

[Guest.Visitor]

Yes, but business managers get upset when they find out they paid 20% tips when everybody else paid 15% :> -bret

[Guest.Visitor]

Says the person who was rubbing it in about leaving good ol' dreary dallas for a week of skin and scuba diving.... ;P -bret

[Guest.Visitor]

I left for lunch early. Went to see a doctor since moving to the area so I could have one who knows me here. Said my health was great, heart was strong and the treadmill and stress test says my stamina is fantastic. But the crop circle on the back of my head is there to stay ;| -bret

[Guest.Visitor]

Guys and girls give me a break. This is not the place to talk politics.

[Guest.Visitor]

Are you sure? The response to this has been fantastically received. -bret

[Guest.Visitor]

Huh? >Guys and girls give me a break. >This is not the place to talk politics. If politics can't be discussed under the "shooting the breeze" category, then where do you suggest it be discussed?

[Guest.Visitor]

Chuck, Beats me. Trust me. If the editors thought this was an inapropriate topic or it got out of hand, the would say so. ;| The presidential race of any country is important to everybody. Even program gurus/geeks. The H1B that was discussed in this forum is directly related to us computer nerds. What better place to discuss it, than right here on a computer forum? I don't understand the reference to this "This is not the place to talk politics." comment. -bret

[Guest.Visitor]

If you think ANY politician is working for the salaried worker.... I've come to the sad conclusion that in this country Jerry Springer is popular for a reason! Unfortunately these viewers also cast a vote.

[J.Pluta]

Are you sure? The response to this has been fantastically received. Perhaps not by everyone. To be honest, I've heard this H1B visa thing talked to death over the last who-knows-how-many years, and I'm completely fed up with the conversation. Don't like it? Start voting. Organize pickets. Mail pamphlets. But leave me out of it. Same thing with NAFTA. I just don't care - at least not within the context of my programming. If I wanted to get involved in a political discussion, I'd be doing it in some chat room somewhere, not here. I haven't said anything up until now because I tend to generate a lot of messages (and a few responses <grin>), but I have to say I'm getting tired of some 5-10% of all messages being on this subject. And I think that's probably what the writer was alluding to. It's not so much that a political comment isn't welcome - it's when the political comments outweigh the programming issues that it gets a little annoying to the rest of us. Just my opinion, and definiteluy not meant to single anyone out or tick andbody off... just something to think about. Joe

[cwscholbe@dstsystems.com]

Hey, we're just Shooting the Breeze here. Just talkin'. You can't hide from politics, it influences everthing we do, whether we like it or not. I thought that, among other things, is what Shooting the Breeze was for?

[bibarnes@yahoo.com]

Chris; If you look back at a previous post you will see that Gov Bush tried to change this but was thwarted by the state legislature. So in answer to your question YES. I would rather see Bill Clinton do another 4 yearts than Al Gore. At least Bill can control his lying.

[bibarnes@yahoo.com]

It's not a perfect system. The reason (as it was explained to me) is that since we are not a Democracy but a Republic. This prevents the majority from usurping the rights of the minority. An interesting fact is that just because a candidate wins a state and should get the electoral votes form that state, the electors are not mandated by law to cast their votes for the winner it's never happened (that I know of). Just like you don't have to be a lawyer to become a Supreme Court Justice, just an upstanding citizen. I don't think that has ever happened either.

[bibarnes@yahoo.com]

Ralph Nader is a man who lost sight of what he started out doing IMHO. His statement about wanting to nationalize all large corporations in the US turned me off. The government has never produced a dime and doesn't know how. Nationalize all corporations and we can be like the Soviet Union, and everyone say's Soviet who???

[bibarnes@yahoo.com]

One difference is that a Naturalized citizen can have their citizenship revoked a Natural born citizen can't

[Guest.Visitor]

There may be certain exceptions for some countries but when you become a citizen of another country, the US takes yours away whether you were born here or not.

[Guest.Visitor]

WahajU Uddin wrote: Guys and girls give me a break. This is not the place to talk politics. There are a variety of political issues that directly affect the lives of technical professionals. While the <u>Shooting the Breeze</u> forum, may not directly accomplish much; the forum provides two important services: As an outlet, to vent frustrations over perceived or real injustices. As an information venue, that can lead to eventual action. That makes this precisely the place to exchange political thoughts and ideas. The only caveat I would add, is that disagreements over points of views should never turn into personal attacks. Dave

[frankgw@adelphia.net]

I hereby cast one vote for David!

[Guest.Visitor]

David, Having been one of those who helped start this thread, I agree with your comments about personal attacks. It's been a long time since there were any here, and those that were thrown were at least baseless tripe. Joe Pluta makes a good point about his not wanting to see 5-10% of the forum devoted to the subject of H1B, but the topics ran quite deep and were informational, and based on fact. It was the responses of the readers of the postings that kept the subject alive, and just like Farm-Aid, once we grow tired of the same old song and dance, we'll take off our ribbons and move to another subject. :) -bret

[nycsusan@hotmail.com]

I agree with Chris, Bret, David, Chuck AND Frank. First, this is in the "shooting the breeze" category. Second, the H1-B issue is DIRECTLY related to our jobs, and it's very topical right now. I am shocked that some programmers don't even have a clue what it's about. Yes, it's certainly political. While NAFTA doesn't target a specific industry or a specific category of jobs, the H1-B issue IS directly targeted at the I.T. profession - and that means us, folks. On those grounds, it does belong in the forum as long as it's kept in this "shooting the breeze" category. One last point. Unlike some other threads that seem to go on forever with only 2 or sometimes 3 participants, notice that this thread has many DIFFERENT contributors. This is evidence that H1-B is applicable to ALL of us, even to those who don't care to dicuss it. P.S. I believe that someone said there would be an article on the H1-B topic in Midrange Computing Magazine soon. Why not write a letter to the magazine editors and tell them that the article has no place in the magazine if you feel strongly that H1-B isn't worthy of discussion in this forum?

[J.Pluta]

P.S. I believe that someone said there would be an article on the H1-B topic in Midrange Computing Magazine soon. Why not write a letter to the magazine editors and tell them that the article has no place in the magazine if you feel strongly that H1-B isn't worthy of discussion in this forum? Oh no you don't. Don't get all high-horsed with me, darnit. I was writing in response to Bret responding to Wajah's initial comment that this isn't the place for politics. Bret said it was received fantastically, and I simply voiced MY OPINION that it perhaps wasn't received fantastically by everyone, that's all. I don't think the H1-B topic isn't worthy of discussion. I just posted my opinion, particularly making an effort to not trample on toes, that this political discussion isn't why I'm here on the forums. Me, Joe Pluta. And I also noted that I tend to ramble, with the obvious implication that my opinion should be taken with a grain of salt on the issue of appropriateness. Above all, I didn't denigrate you or anybody else in any way. I'm also of the opinion that if all you folks think it's that durned important, then by all means talk about it. I just wanted to weigh in with an opposing view, namely that I don't care one whit about H1-B visas, and I don't enjoy having to "Previous" past ten or twelve posts about them (or the electoral college, which I understand, and Ralph Nader, whom I don't). As fascinating as all this is, it ain't AS/400. But that's just an opinion. And having an opinion is my right. Sheesh. Joe P.S. At least MY posts, like this one, are LOOOOOONG and tedious, instead of many short ones, so you usually only have to skip one or two of mine in a row, Susan <smile>. P.P.S. My only other observation is, of the over one hundred messages posted in this thread, how many of them offered any sort of solution or even recommended any type of action? If you don't like it, do something about it. And THAT was really the crux of my original post.

[Guest.Visitor]

Joe Pluta wrote: I don't care one whit about H1-B visas You will Joe..........You will...........sooner or later. Dave

[bibarnes@yahoo.com]

IMHO If this "long winded" discussion is not to someones liking then don't click on. I am not directly affected by the H1-B issue (yet), but it is important. If a company can get someone from another country to come here at a lower salary and they can't leave that company to go somewhere else, it puts us at an unfair position. I have only been involved with this while on a contract in Richmond, VA where there were quite a few people working on the H1-B. They all said the same thing that they were restricted as to changing jobs. Almost like indentured servants. I don't know if that is the norm or what????

[Guest.Visitor]

Oh no you don't Joe Pluta! <Grin> You know darn well that my reply stating that the topic was fantastically received has nothing to do with people thinking this is a great subject. Even if the tide of the topic was against my initial comments, the fact that so many people responded is what made this a great topic. Not my jumping into it, that's for sure. -bret p.s. Big smile :)

[Guest.Visitor]

Bill, Yes, H1B recipients are not allowed to change jobs during their time here. The only problem with that is that there are consulting firms who hire them and then send them from one place to another. They haven't left their job per se, just where they were assigned. There is also the L1 worker which allows a U.S. company with offices in a foreign country relocate their foreign workers without penalty or H1B visa. One of the largest of these is a consulting firm dually located in the U.S. and in India. Any programmer or other employee working in for this company in India can be relocated to the U.S. with less effort than the H1B. I have just recently become aware of this L1 status, and am still digging for info, so forgive me if I mistated anything here. -bret

[nycsusan@hotmail.com]

Joe wrote: "Oh no you don't. Don't get all high-horsed with me, darnit. I was writing in response to Bret responding to Wajah's initial comment that this isn't the place for politics. Bret said it was received fantastically, and I simply voiced MY OPINION that it perhaps wasn't received fantastically by everyone, that's all. ..... <snip> ..... To be honest, I've heard this H1B visa thing talked to death over the last who-knows-how-many years, and I'm completely fed up with the conversation. Don't like it? Start voting. Organize pickets. Mail pamphlets. But leave me out of it. Same thing with NAFTA. I just don't care - at least not within the context of my programming. If I wanted to get involved in a political discussion, I'd be doing it in some chat room somewhere, not here." I wasn't getting "high-horsed" with you, I was simply commenting on what you said. You said that this was not important to YOU, and as you put it, "it gets a little annoying to the rest of us". That implies that you are speaking for everyone, Joe. I was trying to point out that lots of different people felt like joining into this thread, therefore you may not be speaking for as many as you think. The conversation did dovetail a bit, but that's what made this a good thread. It had lots of questions and good FRIENDLY exchanges. Joe wrote: "P.S. At least MY posts, like this one, are LOOOOOONG and tedious, instead of many short ones, so you usually only have to skip one or two of mine in a row, Susan <smile>." Putting a <smile> doesn't make it funny to the target, Joe. That was insulting. <no smile> Joe wrote: "I just wanted to weigh in with an opposing view, namely that I don't care one whit about H1-B visas, and I don't enjoy having to "Previous" past ten or twelve posts about them (or the electoral college, which I understand, and Ralph Nader, whom I don't). As fascinating as all this is, it ain't AS/400." Joe, If you are teaching Java and a few people in your class does not understand a basic concept, you would go back and review, wouldn't you? If you understand the electoral college, well good for you. Some people had questions, and they were answered. Remember, not everyone here is a US citizen. So what if a few posts go to explain the electoral college? This is the "Shooting the Breeze" category and this is an election year! As for your comment that this isn't AS/400 related, well yes, that's true for the exchanges about the electoral college & Nader. But the topic of H1-B visas (which you specifically mentioned) is VERY related to our jobs as I.T. programmers and analysts. Also, if you don't care "one whit" about H1-B visas, then why are you parsing through this thread in the first place? Or any other thread in the "Shooting the Breeze" category if all you want is pure 100% AS/400 reading?

[nycsusan@hotmail.com]

Bret wrote: "H1B recipients are not allowed to change jobs during their time here. " Bret, are you sure? I thought they had to stay with the same employer for 3 years before chaning jobs? I could be wrong, I know you have done more research on this than I have....

[Guest.Visitor]

Ouch! That even hurt my sensitive feelings, and I was not the target. : Susan, What are you doing on this forum? Thought you be at least knee deep playing on the beach. I like all of you here, but given the choice to frolic in the sand and surf or talk to "youze guyz", the beach wins!!! -bret

[Guest.Visitor]

Susan Behrens wrote: "I thought they had to stay with the same employer for 3 years before chan(g)ing jobs." We are both right. If I recall correctly, the H1B cannot change his/her job in the 3 years he/she is sponsored. At the end of the 3 years however, they can find a new sponsor. If they are being sponsored by a consulting firm, they can be moved from client to client, the same as any other consulting employee. -bret

[nycsusan@hotmail.com]

What am I doing back? I got back in The States late yesterday afternoon, and I went straight to my Java class. (Hey, that's AS/400 related! <smile>) Waste of time since I was way to tired to listen so I surfed the web most of the time. I am taking another "vacation day" today to run errands and to work on my Director homework in my multimedia lab. To take breaks between creating annimations and movies, I surf for 15 mintutes here and there. Came here for a diversion, and that was a big boo-boo. It's distracting, not briefly diverting! Warning! The following is an off topic description of my scuba diving trip to Cozumel. Viewer discretion is advised .... Bret, I'll send you an e-mail about the AMAZING trip! SOME of the things I saw up close and personal while diving include: 2 nurse sharks, 4 moray eels, more HUGE lobsters than I can remember, 3 BIG beautiful sea turtles gracefully flying through the water, 1 ADORABLE baby octopus (which wrapped his little tentacles around a rock and turned bright blue because he didn't want us to pick him up), and a VERY LARGE adult octopus sleeping in his/her lair. That one was interesting because I found him when I swam down to investigate all of the broken conch shells piled up in one spot. It seems this octopus was cracking 1.5+ foot long conch shells (BIG ONES!) like you or I would crack peanut shells and he left the shells all around his den. I peeked into his den and I saw suction cups about 1.5 inches in diameter so I opted not to poke my hand in there and wake him up. Also lots of barracudas this trip. One was about 4 feet away from me when he stopped, turned and stared me in the eyeballs. That was the first and only time I was a bit concerned for my safety while diving. This barracuda was definitely making a statement to me and I got way too good of a view of his sharp teeth! Even my dive buddies were all turned and watching me with wide-eyed concern as this territorial fish looked me over! Luckily for me he saw me as no threat and slowly swam away. Oh yeah, the dolphins put on a show for us while we were on the boats eating lunch. A couple of us dove in to try and get closer but they disappeared.

[J.Pluta]

You said that this was not important to YOU, and as you put it, "it gets a little annoying to the rest of us". That implies that you are speaking for everyone, Joe. Nope. I specifically stated at the beginning of the thread that I was speaking only for those who DIDN'T like this thread, like Wahaj and myself. Your perceived implication was wrong. Joe wrote: "P.S. At least MY posts, like this one, are LOOOOOONG and tedious, instead of many short ones, so you usually only have to skip one or two of mine in a row, Susan <smile>." Putting a <smile> doesn't make it funny to the target, Joe. That was insulting. <no smile> My only target was me, Susan. What did I say about you? I only said that I was long and tedious, as opposed to the fact that there are hundreds of H1-B messages in the thread. Again, nothing about you and no reason to take offense, yet you chose to do so. As for your comment that this isn't AS/400 related, well yes, that's true for the exchanges about the electoral college & Nader. But the topic of H1-B visas (which you specifically mentioned) is VERY related to our jobs as I.T. programmers and analysts. It's the side crap that bothers me, Susan, along with the long-winded carping. Again, I didn't see a single constructive remark, just a bunch of complaints. But remember, IT'S JUST MY OPINION. And you can't change the fact that I dislike the obscure side trips. You have your right to them, I have my right to ask you to consider that talking about the electoral college isn't particulary germane to the AS/400 and to have a little consideration for people who have to wade through it. OR NOT. It's up to you. You can do whatever you want, it's a free forum. But I can sure as heck express my opinion, hopefully without being attacked. And I will express my opinion, such attacks nonwithstanding. Also, if you don't care "one whit" about H1-B visas, then why are you parsing through this thread in the first place? Or any other thread in the "Shooting the Breeze" category if all you want is pure 100% AS/400 reading? Because they're all in the "Previous" thread, Susan. That's my point. Those of us who use the Previous thread to attempt to read every message in the forum in chronological order have to live with the Shooting the Breeze stuff, and that's why we've asked for a filter for this category on the Previous button. Specifically so that we can avoid these threads. But until such time, I am constrained to have them come up in my browser, each and every single one, even the cute one-liners. One a fast connection, it's not so bad, on a 28.8KB connection it's a real pain. But I don't denigrate you or your choice to say this stuff, I just ask that you consider the fact that maybe some of us aren't interested in the more esoteric parts of the conversation. Maybe you want to start your own discussion group? It's easy to do on e-groups (www.egroups.com). Or not, it's not that darned important, I was just voicing my opinion, and then you landed on me like a ton of bricks. Enough said. The last thing I want to do is extend this darned thread any more than it is. Joe

[cwscholbe@dstsystems.com]

Susan, If it's not too much trouble, I would like to hear more about your trip, including photos. It sounds wonderful, very relaxing and exciting at the same time. Chris Scholbe cwscholbe@dstsystems.com

[Guest.Visitor]

The three year time period is correct, but meaningless. Most H1B-ers are employed by body shops, and may see work at many places during their tenure here. The fact that the body shops specialize in H1B-ers is in itself a violation of H1B provisions. Dave

[Guest.Visitor]

I'd be real real careful about sticking my hands into crevases. A stone fish has enough poison in it's spines to kill you, and fire coral will give you a rash for days. As for Octopi, there is a tiny blue-ringed Australian eight limber that can completely paralyze you for as long as a few months, while leaving you perfectly concious. Then there are Moray Eels, which love to hide. If you get attacked, well "That's A Moray" :-) Dave

[Guest.Visitor]

"That's A Moray"? - Now that's punny :)

[nycsusan@hotmail.com]

Joe wrote: "And you can't change the fact that I dislike the obscure side trips. You have your right to them, I have my right to ask you to consider that talking about the electoral college isn't particulary germane to the AS/400 and to have a little consideration for people who have to wade through it. OR NOT. It's up to you. You can do whatever you want, it's a free forum. But I can sure as heck express my opinion, hopefully without being attacked. And I will express my opinion, such attacks nonwithstanding." You certainly can and DO express your opinion, I never said otherwise. I merely pointed out that lots of people participated in the various side trips, so this is of general interest. Where was the "attack"? Joe wrote: "But I don't denigrate you or your choice to say this stuff, I just ask that you consider the fact that maybe some of us aren't interested in the more esoteric parts of the conversation. Maybe you want to start your own discussion group? It's easy to do on e-groups (www.egroups.com). Or not, it's not that darned important, I was just voicing my opinion, and then you landed on me like a ton of bricks. Enough said. The last thing I want to do is extend this darned thread any more than it is." Unfair! Foul! How can you do a public "drive by" like that and then sign off?!? But I know you well enough to know you WILL read this post despite your assertion. Joe, If I came down on you like "a ton of bricks" you would know it, believe me. And when did I denigrate you? When did I attack you? Those are very strong words there, and I would really like to know what I said that was "a ton of bricks" or denigrating? I can tell you that was NOT my intent, and looking back I don't see what could have been open to such harsh interpretation. I simply dared to differ with your take on this, that was my only crime here. I just tried to call you and hash this out but I got voicemail both times. I would like to get this straightened out. No sense feeling insulted when that was not my intent. I don't believe this discussion warrants "a ton of bricks" or being "denigrated" or "attacked", whether it be real or perceived. I tried to call and make peace. The ball is in your court now.

[nycsusan@hotmail.com]

Dave wrote: "I'd be real real careful about sticking my hands into crevases. A stone fish has enough poison in it's spines to kill you, and fire coral will give you a rash for days. As for Octopi, there is a tiny blue-ringed Australian eight limber that can completely paralyze you for as long as a few months, while leaving you perfectly concious." Funny you mention poison ... I did accidentally brush up some innocuous looking plant, and I immediately felt like my forearms and one hand were being pricked by lots of little HOT needles. For those that don't know, colors disappear (one at a time) as you descend underwater. I was at a depth that the color red looked brownish green. My skin was really turning red with a rash from this dumb plant, but it looked (and felt) like my flesh was dying because it appeared to be this sickly brownish green color! This was at the beginning of that dive, so it was royally distracting. I didn't know if this plant was poison or what. I guess it's not, since I did this on Saturday morning and I am still alive now. But I still have a very itchy rash on my forearm ... it's gross, looks like psoriasis. :-( Dave wrote: "Then there are Moray Eels, which love to hide. If you get attacked, well "That's A Moray" :-)" Dave, you are in the wrong business! :-)

[Guest.Visitor]

Hope you don't still feel eel! Could be theres some CORALlation between your rash and the plant life? Oh well, you got to go to the beach, so WATER you complaining about? Get well soon, there's probably a Killer Concert coming up soon. My son went to see Barenaked Ladies a week or so ago. -bret

[J.Pluta]

Susan, I took from your tone and a couple of phrases (like "I am insulted") that you were, well, insulted by what I said. All I did was express my opinion, and, since it was by definition the "opposing viewpoint", I didn't expect to have to defend it. I was just putting out food for thought. The only reason I responded at all is that I thought YOU were put out... if not, if you were just chattily expressing your opposition to my opposing viewpoint, then we can drop it here. I was worried that you were upset and just trying to point out that I wasn't attacking you or anyone here, just expressing my opinion. Enough. I'm not fishing for sympathy, but simply stating a fact when I report that I've been to the dentist twice in the last five days after having NOT been there for 15 years, so I'm not particularly giggly at the moment <smile>. Joe

[Guest.Visitor]

<font color purple>Susan Behrens wrote: "I thought they had to stay with the same employer for 3 years before chan(g)ing jobs. <font color blue>We are both right. If I recall correctly, the H1B cannot change his/her job in the 3 years he/she is sponsored. At the end of the 3 years however, they can find a new sponsor. </font></font> You are both wrong.:( I have some ex-collegues who went/came to the USA under H1Bs who subsequently took up new employment. The Dept of Justice site it contains the following clause: As long as the alien continues to provide H-1B services for a U.S. employer, most changes will not mean that an alien is out of status. An alien may change employers without affecting status, but the new employer must file a new I-129 petition for the alien before he or she begins working for the new employer David

[nycsusan@hotmail.com]

Okay, so what ARE the limits to this H-1B visa? Is sounds like as long as some employer, ANY employer, is willing to deal with the paperwork, then there are no limitations on this ... other than the yearly quota of how many visas to issue in the first place. Is that it? Once you get an H1-B visa, you can stay as long as you are employed? Are there any tests to confirm that these applicants acutally have the skills that they claim to have before they get the visa? (Like we sometimes do on our job interviews?) Out of all of the applicants for this visa, how does the government decide who gets them? The more I find out, the more scary it becomes.

[Guest.Visitor]

<font color =blue>The more I find out, the more scary it becomes. </font> I guess you must be having nightmares. It's 3PM in Singapore so it must be very early in the morning up :) in Texas. <font color=blue> Okay, so what ARE the limits to this H-1B visa? Is sounds like as long as some employer, ANY employer, is willing to deal with the paperwork, then there are no limitations on this ... other than the yearly quota of how many visas to issue in the first place. Is that it? Once you get an H1-B visa, you can stay as long as you are employed? </font> Disclaimer: I am not a US resident and have no current intentions to be a US resident or apply for a H1B. A H1B visa has a maximum period of six years. During that time the person should continue to provide the same services. For some more general information check out <a > href="http://www.ins.usdoj.gov/graphics/services/employerinfo/h1b3.htm"> USA Immigration Services </a> Ive seen a number of people apply for positions that require sponsorship. For many companies the overheads in taking on foreign staff is too great unless (a) it will reduce the overall salary costs or (b) The person has some world class skills. While the USA remains the primary attraction for a number of workers other countries also attract large numbers of foreign applicants. <font color blue> Are there any tests to confirm that these applicants acutally have the skills that they claim to have before they get the visa? </font> No ! (As a non USA resident I find this question a little insulting. ) The process is the same as for US resident applicants. Its up to the employer (sponsor) to determine the suitability of the skills. How would you feel if before a company hired you they needed to send you to the government for a test. Applicants do need to provide proof of educational qualifications. I think Joe Pluta is right, if the issue worries you greatly than take action. Lobby (is that the correct US term) your political representatives. David Whos resisting temptation to express an opinion on the H1B increase issue itself.

[Guest.Visitor]

Right, wrong, or indifferent, the bottom line is artificially suppressed wages and rates. Dave

[Guest.Visitor]

David Bye wrote: Its up to the employer (sponsor) to determine the suitability of the skills. This, plain and simple just does not happen. The so-called employer of the majority of H1B=ers is an agency, or body shop if you prefer. The employment is granted before any actual work for any actual company ever occurs. The skill set necessary for employment is that the applicant is breathing! An article in another publication wrote of a real employer who had two companies. As both companies were in search of a consultant. A few agencies including one that specialized in H1B-ers were contacted. The agency that specialized in H1B-ers submitted an individual for company "A" and another for company "B". The employer found it fascinating after interviews, that even though neither applicant had ever met, and both applicants were of different ages, and came from different regions, They both, had precisely the same resume!! Another qualification is supposed to be that the applicant has a college degree. Since it is the <u>employer</u> that is supposed to check this out, and the employer is a body shop, the actual end company, that uses the services is off the hook. There is more. . . .much more. Cutting to the chase, there are far more abuses, then uses. Dave

[Guest.Visitor]

People, To be honest : I think that the constant "yes/no/yes/no/yes"-like posts here take up most of the thread atm. Everytime that I go through this thread I expect a post from the moderator telling us all to quit posting here. As you may recall that DID happen before. The problem here is that there are people who think/discuss subjects fringing on the border of the AS/400-market and then sometimes elaborate and go into a different direction. This website is useless for this purpose, E-groups would be useful, as would h2g2.com or ecircles.com. As a matter of fact, why doesn't everyone sign up at ONE of these forums so one can enter a post saying something like : 'Would you like to know more ?' with a link to a page outside midrangecomputing. That way everyone could find their way there. Just my 2c, Rob.

[Guest.Visitor]

Rob, Yep I do remember slightly, that one thread was not only cancelled, but also terminated, and the person who started the claptrap has disapeared under mysterious circumstances. :) The difference here, is the lack of name calling and being a total jerk about the subject. As long as a subject can be dealt with in a professional manner and opinions expressed as such, I don't think the moderators will get involved. If nothing else, perhaps it'll give them or someone with more knowledge than myself (Would'nt take much) on this subject to write an article or series of articles for their magazine. -bret

[nycsusan@hotmail.com]

I wrote: "Are there any tests to confirm that these applicants acutally have the skills that they claim to have before they get the visa? (Like we sometimes do on our job interviews?) " David responded: "No ! (As a non USA resident I find this question a little insulting. ) The process is the same as for US resident applicants. Its up to the employer (sponsor) to determine the suitability of the skills. How would you feel if before a company hired you they needed to send you to the government for a test. Applicants do need to provide proof of educational qualifications. " David, I didn't mean to offend you. I tried to avoid doing just that by inserting the fact that US citizens sometimes have to prove our skills to get a job here. Lots of places give tests. Since people are being admitted for the sole purpose of filling a job that requires skills that the employer claims they cannot find, it seems fair to ask if anyone checks this before allowing entry for this purpose. Again, no harm intended. Despite being a born and raised US citizen, and holding a B.B.A. I was given a writing test before a job offer. I have also had to take logic tests and programming tests as part of the interview process. I aplogize for insulting you. My intent was to find out if H1-B people are subjected to the same tests that we citizens frequently are.

[Guest.Visitor]

Hi Brett, Well I don't mind long threads, although I think that one apology per week/person is quite enough...8-). However, I still think that www.midrangecomputing.com/forums/forums.cfm is not exactly configured for these kind of long and pervasive(invasive?) threads. Having said this : on h2g2, where I spend too much time(...), we had the same problem. Threads that kept popping up in one's 'latest forum-updates' window. In the new version the technicians have included the option of 'unsubscribing' from a particular thread. TPTB told me that it was not a matter of great difficulty editing the software, it was more a matter of not enough time to implement the changes. The site went from around 1.000 registered users in May 1999(they started in April 1999) to over 65.000 users atm... Still, it is one of the most hailed updates they have announced so far. Rob.

[Guest.Visitor]

Number of University grads have dropped drastically, Us is just not producing enough number of graduates. Employers are struggling to find good candidates within US. (Though not always true. There are certain benefits to the employers by hiring from outside the US). But the fact does not change that US University graduating rate is dropping and we have business to run. There were some reports that Apple wants to hire couple of thousands so does the Microsoft, and quiet frankly US is having some trouble delivering. If we want good economy we have got to produce some good skills. Though this thread is under "Shooting the Breeze" it is still not the place to talk politics. GO to Ecircle or CNN or find some thing

[Guest.Visitor]

WahajU, I don't consider this part of the postings to be political. If by political you mean that the next U.S. president has an effect on the situation, then of course you are right. The problem with us Americans is that we tend to politicalize everything? (Is pliticalize even a word?) No one here has hit on the H1B visa recipients, the complaint is the underhanded practice of using loopholes in the system to hire the H1B sponsor, when there is not actually a reason to do so. Many RPG programmers came up through the ranks and not through college. The same can be said for COBOL and JAVA and VB programmers as well. It is their ability to learn that makes or breaks them. If they can learn and remember, then I have a tendency to hire them over a college grad, who has not yet proved his or her abilities. Not that education takes a backseat, but ability is far more valuable to me than a 4 year degree. One of the requirements of to obtain an H1B is a degree. That's fine, but I don't think it should be so. If one has the ability, then they have the ability. But, when a consulting firm, posts a job vacancy that requires a degree, just to hire a H1B, when in fact there are other capable non-degreed programmers, that is wrong. I feel it is wrong to take advantage of any system based on a loophole, especially when that loophole is used to be biased about any class of people. In this case the class of people being biased against are U.S. programmers who would normally be hired. There is no real shortage of talent in the U.S. There are areas where the H1B is required to meet certain demands, but not to the extent of paranoia, which is what some would have us believe. Again. This post should not be looked at as a politial remark geared towards altering the opinion of politicians. This is, however, a forum dedicated to the AS/400 and other platforms, therefore I do expect to make my opinions on this matter known as it, too, pertains to the AS/400 and other platforms. -bret

[cwscholbe@dstsystems.com]

If we are not graduating enough people, is this a case where IBM could do more to assure that there are AS/400 type people entering the job market. (I understand that "ALL" of this isn't IBM's fault.) Is the AS/400 taught at University in other countries? Is the US the only country not producing qualified candidates? How do people in other countries get the AS/400 experience to come to the US? These questions assume that H1-B people are in fact qualified. This may not be a valid assumption, but I would like to assume it for purposes of this discussion. Going off on a "they aren't qualified" tangent doesn't help my understanding of the "valid" use of H1-B. Chris

[Guest.Visitor]

Chris, I can't speak for ALL countries or even all training sites, but: I used to work with a Paul (last name withheld). One of the best JDE programmers I ever ran across. He could sit down at a blank SEU source, and write a JDE report from top to bottom. It looked exactly like any JDE report I ever saw. It copied the $$, @@, ## and other special characters, the subroutines, the /copy, the editing. Paul did this from memory. I asked him about it one day and he stated that in India, he had gone to a private school for six months to learn the AS/400, 2 months to learn RPG and 6 months to learn JDE reporting and their files. Paul could not write interactive programs, he could not really tie things in from legacy software, or other ideas we consider normal. He knew JDE reporting and that was really it. I don't know if this is a standard practice with other countries, but I found it to be quite stimulating. Nowhere in the U.S. am I aware of any university teaching AS/400 operations, programming or networking. There are some community colleges that do teach RPG, but in most cases I see RPG being taught on a HP3000 or HP9000. The Partners In Education needs to get with the finance and advertising people and start making this public knowledge. I would be happy to dedicate 3-4 hours twice or so a week to teach. Pretty much for nothing (as in pay) as I have done this before and know what non-certified teachers get paid. :) -bret

[Guest.Visitor]

Bret; I agree with you in most part. But here is a situation: No body would want to lye on operation table unless you are dealing with a qualified Doctor, No I do not think experience is good enough here. You would want BRIDGE to be built based on just experience, I think we want to have qualified Engineer doing this job. Again experience is just not enough.. You can not be Actuary unless.....You get the point. Why have different opinion in Computer science. I agree experience is crucial But University grads definitely have an edge of getting same job over college grads. Employers want best result for their buck. Just a thought

[Guest.Visitor]

WahajU, Good points, but bridges are designed by engineers and built by low paid labor. As for doctors, as a resident, not yet a doctor, the inexperienced often perform surgeory on patients. This is how the experience is gained. Not from a text book. I've never been to school to learn to fly, but after going up several times, my buddy turned the yoke over to me. I could fly! Experience is key. Knowledge without application is useful, but a 4 year degree as opposed to someone who has worked in the field for 4 years is just about meaningles. There are those who advertise for college degree only. This is a good ruse to pick a nice inexpensive employee who you can mold. -bret

[Guest.Visitor]

Fact: Microsoft only hires about one out of ten job applicants. So much for the so-called shortage. Dave

[Guest.Visitor]

An individual H1B-er may or may not be qualified. That is irrelevant to the economics of the situation. The laws of supply and demand take precedent, and while there is no real shortage of programming personnel, there is a very real shortage of $27,000 per year programming personnel. Dave

[Guest.Visitor]

I have (previously in this forum) volunteered to take a day off billing, and travel to various colleges (with or without IBM) to promote PIE. I have spread this around a bit too. I have yet to hear from IBM, or anyone remotely associated with PIE in order to make this a reality. I'm sure that given time and effort, there are a plethora of educational institutions that would make use of the PIE program. There may be things I am not aware of here, but I do not see that effort coming from IBM. My only evidence, is, that all I speak to in acedemia are unaware of the PIE program. Dave

[Guest.Visitor]

And here David hits the nail on the head. Many companies think it is better to have two or three 27K programmers than it is to have two 60k programmers. While you can't argue with the math, you can argue that anyone willing to work in Dallas, Washington, California, Atlanta or Florida for 27K is: a) Desperate; b) Unwilling to move; c) not good; d) unlucky. In Dallas, there are always jobs advertised at 25-35K. Always because they never get filled, or they get filled only to lose the person because of incompetence or because they realize how much they are worth and leave in 3-6 months. -bret

[Guest.Visitor]

David, I also think that the business community drives the situation. If more and more business were forthcoming about their business needs, I think the /400 would make its way into more universities. IMHO, the technology taught at a university is much like the U.S. Space Program. Several years behind current trends as they had to set goals and budgets based on data that was current years ago, but has since been updated. I think a questionaire designed by MC and sent to universities would confirm this. Likewise, questionaires sent to companies by the universities, would help develop the platform of training for the coming years. -bret

[Guest.Visitor]

The other thing to consider here, is that upper management considers Data processing to be a cost center. And....on the books, it <u>is</u> a cost center. Unless the product of the company is software, programmers only subtract from the bottom line, not add to it. Therefore it is preferable to hire only the cheapest programmers. As stated previously, many companies that have H1B-ers on sight, do not get involved with the H1B program. They contract the work from body shops, excluding themselves from any accountability, in regards to preferential hiring. The law states that if there are qualified residents, or citizens able to perform the job, then the company must hire them first. BUT... If the company in question is not hiring at all, merely contracting, then the question of preferential treatment does not apply. This, in effect lowers the salary bar for all. Dave