High School Computer Science: Does Not Compute?

[H.Boldt]

So Purchase College isn't offering computer courses any more. So what? This isn't North Korea. You can't force students to study computer science. If there's no demand for computer science courses at one school, then why bother to offer them? (Of course, many artists use computers in their work. But you don't need computer science for that!) In general, though, I'm bothered by calls from business for more computer science education. First, there are already a lot of capable computer programmers and analysts. Most businesses simply don't want to pay for the necessary training for experienced workers, prefering low paying college graduates pre-packaged with all the required skills. Second, programmer productivity is slowly but steadily improving. Third, the vast majority of people simply don't have the innate natural talent or personality for a computer career. Encouraging more people to study computer science may have the unfortunate effect of bringing more idiots into the profession. (Sorry, I can't think of a more diplomatic way to express that thought.) Cheers! Hans

[David Abramowitz]

This misses the point. I'm not trying (by these posts) to encourage more computer education in colleges and universities. I am pointing out a reaction by colleges and universities to the dearth of opportunity to anyone trying to begin a career in information technology. Technology careers have been legislated to the point of near death. If one finds fewer available courses, it is because most individuals, even those with natural technology inclinations, will decline to take courses in a field that leads nowhere. If fewer students take the courses, then educational institutions will stop offering the courses. This is problemsome from a variety of perspectives. When communicating with politicians, I find that these arguements hold more water, than personal loss. Dave

[H.Boldt]

David wrote: "I am pointing out a reaction by colleges and universities to the dearth of opportunity to anyone trying to begin a career in information technology." "Dearth of opportunity"? So one (primarily arts) college dropped its compsci courses, and that's a "dearth"? Last time I check, there were a lot of colleges and universities still offering compsci programs. At my own alma mater a couple of years ago, the computing science department became the "School of Computing" in recognition of its importance and cross-disciplinary role. "Technology careers have been legislated to the point of near death. If one finds fewer available courses, it is because most individuals, even those with natural technology inclinations, will decline to take courses in a field that leads nowhere." "Leading nowhere"? Did you not read the report? It said that there's an anticipated shortage of 1.5 million computer jobs by 2012! You're not referring to the issue of outsourcing, are you? The reality is that if businesses can't find qualified local talent, they will go elsewhere to find it. The report attempts to find solutions at the high school level, but the problems are multi-faceted and complex. One problem is that some school boards have a poor grasp of science education. (Kansas is an example.) Another problem is that the kinds of people who have an aptitude for computer science (geeks and nerds) tend to be marginalized in American society. (OK, I know that's an over-generalization.) Another thing to consider is that a lot of other trades and professions are also facing shortages in coming years too as the demographics shift. If you're concerned, do as Thomas said and forward the report to someone who might be able to do something. But not to your high school principal. Your school board trustees should read this. Or your elected officials at the state or provincial level. Cheers! Hans

[David Abramowitz]

Hans.Boldt exclaimed: "Leading nowhere"? Did you not read the report? It said that there's an anticipated shortage of 1.5 million computer jobs by 2012! There are several reports compiled by industries that come to that conclusion. The OMB has stated that these numbers are skewed and that the programmer shortage is a "myth". When my own job hunting experience is peppered with offers of a salary that I was earning twenty years ago, and finding even those positions is a difficult task at best I think of the writers of the personnel shortage papers as delivering the Groucho Marx line: Who are your going to believe - - Me or your own eyes?? Dave Dave

[R.Daugherty]

One of these reports comes out everytime someone tries to get the H1-B quotas raised. rd

[David Abramowitz]

Let us not forget, that hidden in the recent senate immigration bill was a provision to raise the H1-B cap by almost double. It is fortunate that the house had other ideas. Dave

[bharder@nlrha.ab.ca]

The comment about "core competencies" is right on the money. This kind of language also promotes an unfriendly recruiting environment. Look, as a computing professional, I just don't want to hear from my employer that computers aren't a core competency. Even if it's essentially true, it's an unfriendly message. The underlying message is that I'm not very important, my opinion isn't very important, and my career isn't very important. I can't influence my organization and I should be thankful I haven't been outsourced (yet). How many organizations say that HR isn't a core competency? Payroll? Purchasing? Physical plant? All might be true in many respects, but it isn't respectful of the people currently working there, and potential future staff either.

[Guest.Visitor]

Purchase College does offer computing courses! Purchase College offers majors in the liberal arts as well as the visual and performing arts. In fact, more than half the students are NOT in what we call the conservatories. The Continuing Education/Liberal Studies catalog has been deficient in the past by hiding courses that are not provided specifically by the School of CE. This may have been the case here. We do not offer a computer science major. Instead, there is a combined major in mathematics/computer science. There also is a major in new media, with courses from/in school of natural and social sciences, the school of art and design, the school of theater arts and film, and the conservatory of music. Many courses are taken by a mixture of students. I have not yet read the article or all the postings and will not comment except to say that technology and the application of technology is evolving and, though there are 'basics' that deserve attention, colleges should a) attempt to keep up and b) educate students for change by showing how to learn how to learn. Jeanine Meyer coordinator, mathematics/computer science board of study and member of new media board of study (we don't have departments) Purchase College newmedia.purchase.edu/~Jeanine

[dford@pmi.delta.org]

Ok, I can't speak for the entire industry or entire country, but here in sunny Southern California, all the community colleges in my area have experienced a dramatic reduction in enrollment in computer science courses. I'm on the advisory board for the CS department at one such college, and they all agree. The lower-level "Computers 101"-type classes fill up easily, but anything involving actual programming does not usually attract enough students to make the class viable. (Since community colleges are so inexpensive, it usually takes at least 20 students to generate enough money to pay the teacher.) Therefore, NUMEROUS programming classes get cancelled each semester. It’s very disturbing, but it’s a fact that we cannot deny. Less and less students are interested in careers in programming. The more interesting (and difficult) question is WHY? Is it because of the trend towards outsourcing? ... Maybe ... Is it because computers have become so ubiquitous that they no longer "dazzle and enthrall" students like they did when I started programming in 1981? ... Maybe ... I’m sorry, but I don’t have any good answers here, just observations. -- Dave

[David Abramowitz]

DaveSlash wrote: It’s very disturbing, but it’s a fact that we cannot deny. Less and less students are interested in careers in programming. If there are no careers, it's difficult to generate an interest. From what I understand, the trend that you are seeing is pervasive around the country. There are probably other fields that have been legislated out of existence, but none, more so in recent memory than the field of programming. There are other reasons too. I wrote this article http://www.mcpressonline.com/mc?1@23...T.17@.6ae61001 over three years ago. Despite some realizations by politicians that in many cases the wrong action has been taken, the tilting point may have been reached. Regardless, it is just very difficult to get by these days. Dave