IMHO: Where Have All the Jobs Gone?

[ismilemyth]

<> Strawman. No political leanings were revealed by the previous poster. <> I'm sorry for your confusion. Americans have and still do live in these countries for the purpose of education, employment, missionary work, cultural experience, relief and aid work...I could go on. <> Once again, there are American IT workers in India. Cite a source please, where IT workers are being targeted for murder in India or other countries. <> Again, cite in the previous post the statements lamenting the fate of Indian immigrants. Here's a hint. You can't. There are no such statements in that post. << Right, just exactly how much did you give in charitable contributions to third world nations last year? Mine, in the thousands, I also support real disadvantage children through World Vision. Your's, I mean you love them so much I'll bet it's a big fat zero. Give anything to the Tsunami victims for relief, eh? >> Yawn. Strawman. Again. Donation to charity does not make hateful and bigoted statements immune from criticism. Padshore's choice of supported charities does not diminish his or her right to respond to your remarks. <> Sooo...the first members of your family to arrive don't qualify. << through it's own educational system and that includes second generation immigrants AND is LOYAL to this country. You can become a citizen of this country and as long as your loyalties are to this country and it's people then fine. But if you're Japanese and will only buy Toyota because it benefits the homeland and who you really consider your people then go back home! >> Helpful information, many foreign auto manufacturers have American based manufacturing plants and employee Americans at many levels. Buying foreign can and does benefit Americans. Likewise, many American manufacturers purchase from foreign suppliers and outsource to foreign countries. Buying American can and does benefit foreigners. Your lack of understanding of global economy is appalling. <> First, you have no proof of Padshore's country of origin or resident status. Show me proof of assimilation by previous immigrants. If this was true, there would be no China Towns, no ethnic restaraunts, no Greek, German, or Italian neighborhoods with stores featuring ethnic items with prices frequently displayed in both English and at least one other foreign language, no Octoberfest celebrations...again I could go on. Does your aversion to cultural expression apply to everyone? Or is it related to skin color, or some other factor? <> Very relevant. It illustrates your hypocrisy. <> Again, no relevance to this discussion. <> Seeking improvements in salary and employability have always been major reasons for immigration to foreign countries. <> Loss of labor in construction to illegal labor is apples an apples and oranges comparison to outsourcing jobs. <> Prove that absolutely no outsourced jobs that require intense client interaction ground up have never been off-shored. Even better, prove that it is an impossibility that ground up development will ever happen in an outsourced environmnet. And finally prove that there is some factor that determines that American's are "smarter". << Again, I'm still waiting for that earth-shattering list of Indian engineering accomplishments that will rock the world, and I guess so is the world. USA, USA , USA , USA!!!!! >> Indian nationals have led and participated in many succesful and groundbreaking initiatives in the areas of medicine, education, engineering etc. I suppose you're eager to credit USA USA USA for all accomplishments in the world regardless of the involvement of other countries. <> Prove Padshore's ethnicity and residence, or retract. << Like it out not you're countrymen are bigots, egotistical morons who managed to murder the best thing that ever happened to them and his name was Ghandi.>> You're own words define you as bigoted and moronic. In addition, I'm fairly certain that Ghandi would think you were a jerk. << I have not met one nice assimilated IT Indian male, they all down to a man had major chips on their shoulders.>> What is the correlation between assimilated and nice? How does an Indian male behave in a way that proves his assimilation to your satisfaction? Eating steak? <> There are no other arrogant immigrants? <> Anybody at any point in time coming to America to seek employment or to start businesses were coming to participate in a competive price driven economy. The result of this was displacement of existing American workers. << My parents were born and raised here and all had deep family roots but not one ever had issues as far as loyalties to this country and neither do I. >> Well then, you and your parents should pat yourselves on the back. Congratulations on the amazing accomplishment of being born on American soil. If you were also born rich and white. Please pat yourself on the back again. <> I'd say all of this is irrelevant, but it is useful in illuminating your own prejudices and h atred. << Do you still speak your language especially at night from your homeland and not English?>> Many immigrants from many cultures choose to speak their home language in the home. This isn't limited to the present time, or to Indians. << Do you eschew American values and still enforce you're homeland cultural values on your family?>> All American "values" are derived from foreign cultures. << Do you honor and obey any American holidays?>> How does one obey an American holiday. Do you refuse to celebrate Christmas because it's origin is not American? << Do you belong to any American religion? >> There is no American religion. Idiot. <> But you said that Padshore was an Indian? Would you pledge allegiance to another country's flag or sing there national anthem? Obviously Padshore is not in your estimation a real American, so what right do you have to demand any display of loyalty. Has it occured to you that the refusal of third and fourth generation immigrants to view new immigrants as new Americans is a major reason that these new immigrants are slower to express loyalty. <> incoherent. And BTW, <> It sure as hell ain't padshore!

[David Abramowitz]

Hassan, My post was not aimed at you, or anything that you said. Dave

[R.Daugherty]

Dave, I see software failures reported in two ways; 1- when the stock of a company takes a big hit due to poor sales, and the company pubically blames a software installation failure, and the software maker blames it on customization made, and 2- in government failures at all levels, because the information can be and is obtained, despite the best efforts to hide it. The package install failures I don't follow. It's the new software development failures I follow, and the government failures are massive new development. Many people attribute it to being the government, but we didn't have everything across the board failing when it was COBOL on the mainframe (akin to RPG on the AS/400). But now literally every software system developed since Java and web pages were the watchwords are massive failures. This has been going on across the board, at every agency, for the last 8 years or so. The amount of taxpayer's money sunk into failed web projects would be a national scandal if there weren't so many other disasters that it hasn't become well known yet. But it will. They keep changing the buzzwords, but the billions of dollars of web page software is still missing, and so is the money. rd

[R.Daugherty]

and the company pubically blames a software installation failure but generally they have to make it public before I know about it. rd

[Guest.Visitor]

The way I see it, an empire has a time to run and the US is showing signs of being on the way out! Take any empire in history (Roman, Mongol, Ottoman, British, etc.), when the population are overly proud with their accomplishments, and the echelons of power are riddled with corruption, then that empire falls. If it had been 200 years ago, some other country would have smelled weakness and invaded. These days they just invade the corporations, rape them for the cash, and leave the economy desolate. The time for an empires reign seems to be getting shorter as well, so China may only be at the top of the tree for 20 years or so before the economy shifts again. Alternatively, somebody could let their bigotry and hatred force them into war, and then we all lose!

[David Abramowitz]

It would be interesting if all development efforts could be tracked. This would allow implementation effectiveness to become public knowledge. Once it was public knowledge, there would be no excuse for simply following the hype. The corollary being that the CFO could no longer blame the salesperson for a project failure. Unfortunately. . . . .There is no definitive repository that could yield accurate and scientific statistical data. And so hyperbole rules and we are stuck with it. That is until the next latest greatest language breakthrough occurs. This of course will solve every problem for the CEO that they have with their uncooperative I.T. department, and if the CFO acts quickly, they will be able to co-opt the bothersome I.T. department before they have a chance to protest things like cost, effectiveness, suitability to purpose, acutal needs, and little things like that. After all, the real reason for the failure of the last project, was that I.T. kept questioning the need for the project in the first place. It's bad attitudes like that, that are the real reason behind business failures. If the project is actually successful, will each employee in their varied tasks become more productive than they were ten or even twenty years ago? Dave

[Guest.Visitor]

Hmmm, reminds of retorts children use, no real valid thought provoking issues, just cherry picking quotes. <> As with most of your challenged thinking this is the same lame out-of-context retort that exists throughout your diatribe. The point was if REAL Americans in the same numbers as their Indian counterparts come here to take American IT jobs went there the Indian government would not allow it. Name these substantial non-American based corporate IT Indian jobs that large numbers of Americans enjoy? Jobs where American workers have displaced Indian workers? What does missionary work have to do with any of the discussion, fool? <> - that one's too funny. ROFL! Try having original thoughts as opposed to whining oh "your so bad and such a bigot" because it's laid on the line. All that you can do is cherry pick quotes and deliver an out-of-context and repeatedly incorrect retort. So prove that the American IT worker does not have a problem with Indian IT workers here. Or even better prove that the Indian IT worker does not have a problem with the American IT worker. Either way in co-workers experience it's proven repeatedly true, we get rid of them! Comments regarding charity have to do with Americans giving regardless of income level while foreign countries like India have no real interest in helping anyone but themselves. This is proven repeatedly when any world crisis is at hand which has everything to do with how Americans show they care and not rhetoric like most other countries and yours. Comments regarding assimilation have to do with the issues that are caused with failure of large numbers of immigrants to accept American ways instead of ignore them causing further divisions. So whine all you want but Americans are not welcome in a vast majority of the world. Large numbers of immigrants like we allow here would cause major social unrest in any of those so-called enlightened countries as proven in France today. This conversation is too difficult because you lack even the basic rudimentary skills to debate. Again, instead of your diatribe, name the substantial outsourced contracts, the large numbers of American IT workers in Indian displacing Indian jobs, compare American charity with any other countries charity, prove bigotry doesn't exist in every country, prove that liberals like yourself don't spin and spin rhetoric to avoid answering the hard questions. Name calling doesn't change anything, facts are facts. Every Indian IT worker I have encountered does not want to assimilate but instead prefers to work and socialize with their own "people". And again, other immigrants I have worked with DO NOT share these same traits in the same large percentages as Indians do. Too bad, now go whine some more. As far as bigotry is concerned, again the same bleeding heart liberals like yourself constantly give lip service but then refuse to deal with the real issues, instead start name calling like padshore and yourself. But that's okay at least half the world is full of bigots, the other-half like yourself constantly whine and consistently do nothing to help. But one thing bottom line that shows caring is the level of giving without regard to income. A bigot doesn't give thousands away to support charities outside of their own country. But regardless of income, just how much charity work have you done, how much did you give last year, it's very relevant asshole when you do not have the balls to give of yourself but expect everyone else to do it for you. Take all you want about perceived bigotry but just exactly have you done to help anyone but yourself? I'll bet it's a big fat whining liberal ZERO. And by the way next time don't hide behind padshore simpleton or unless of course you are padshore which probably is true since you were so clear on what padshore said or didn't say. It's all about reflection but with a snippet miester it's not to be expected. Although the really funny thing is, I have not heard one comment of anyone's personal experience regarding immigrants taking jobs from them, friends or family. So my guess is it hasn't come close to home - yet. So as with most of these discussions the rhetoric is laid on thick. Will see.... Seems to me that's what the article is about, it's effecting someone's life close to home and I'm sure they would rather not have their livelihood outsourced.

[David Abramowitz]

It's interesting how posts like this never seem to have a real name attached to them. Dave

[Guest.Visitor]

Ah, gee Dave unless it has really escaped your notice everyone uses pseudonyms. Burying your head in the sand and attacking the messenger takes little thought. Just what have you done about stereo-typing except mouth-off? Everything I said is true and happening in the good ole USA. You can BS your way around it but bottom line when mosques and Hindu temples start appearing everywhere, America is lost. We are becoming a third world nation. But go ahead and keep pretending you're actually "protecting" poor immigrants. More left-wing liberal rhetoric. So I'm just waiting to hear how you have made anyone's life better, go ahead tell us all about your selfless work for the poor. It doesn't exist does it? What's even more interesting is you actually believe how you Dave Abramowitz actually have real impact with your tirades against Visa's. Wow, do you have Hispanic servants too, helping them by having them clean your house? Are you for or against the war in Iraq, is it okay for Hezbollah, Arabs and most of the Middle East to kill and hate the Jews, is it okay for Israel to kill innocent civilians even though we know Hezbollah hides among them, do you have any Arab "American" friends? Uh-huh sure Dave. That's why they call all this talk lip service, do nothing talkers. "Oh I'm so worldly and loving I even wrote an article about it." BUT WHAT DID YOU ACTUALLY DO WITH YOUR POCKETBOOK, WHAT DID YOU ACTUALLY DO WITH YOUR TIME, WHAT DID YOU ACTUALLY DO TO END WORLD STARVATION, WHAT DID YOU ACTUALLY DO TO HELP CHILDREN AROUND THE WORLD WHO HAVE NOTHING, WHAT DO YOU DO BUT TALK?! But fortunately as a consultant making 6+ figures and working with all manner of nationalities I don't worry at all about invading hordes. On the contrary, unlike you I escaped RPG as a day job over 10 years ago. But like it or not Indians are a pain in the ass. I'd much rather be a bigot then a hypocrite.

[ismilemyth]

<> Soooo, your posts cannot stand a point by point refutation. Anyway, I will keep my remarks (from prior postings) enclosed in << >> for the sake of clarity. I will enclose your quotes that I am responding to in <<< >>>. Further, you will notice that I have never selectively taken bits and pieces of your own words. I have responded to full blocks of text that you posted. <> <<> - that one's too funny. ROFL!>>> In your original post, you stated that Americans were unwelcome internationally. You mentioned that American IT workers would be murdered. Now you wish to back track and reword your own statements to "The Indian Government would not allow it". Your remarks about Americans overseas also were not limited to off shoring jobs, or the placement of Americans in jobs overseas. Therefore, my remarks regarding Americans living and working overseas and the reasons for doing so were germaine to the discussion. Retractions are accepted happily. Admissions that your previous remarks were a failed attempt at hyperbole are also accepted...begrudgingly. <<>> You have not been misquoted. Your own words have been copied and responded to. I have not and will not made the assertion that I speak for the "American IT worker". Asserting that the "American IT worker" does or does not have a problem with the "Indian IT worker", is almost as idiotic as asserting that all "American IT workers enjoy black coffee. Your statements about your co-workers experiences is irrelevant. Obviously there are shops in America where Indian and American IT workers get along perfectly well and things remain productive. Of course, if I was in HR at your company and became aware that you and your co-workers couldn't work with Indian hires, I'd probably have to face the likelihood that the problem originated with you guys. <<>> Your original comments about charity insinuated that Padshore had no right to comment on your remarks, and that your remarks should be immune from criticism because you supposedly make charitable donations. Now, we have more whining and disingenuous remarks. Americans give to charity, because the majority of us have the means to do so. There are exceptions, but the fact is, most Americans do consider their own needs and income before decided when if and how much they will give to charity. If you could take the time to clear up your cranial anal inversion, you'd also know that many other countries offer aid in times of crisis. <<>> Once again, define American ways. Our values, family structure, etc. are largely based on foreign construct. You should know that the issue of assimilation is almost as old as the United States itself. I think it was Benjamin Franklin that lamented the arrival of German immigrants because he believed that they would never assimilate. Instead, they came, were largely succesful, did not abandon the traditions hollidays and cusine of their homeland, worshiped in the way that they worshipped in their homeland, spoke their home language in the evenings at home (even spoke German doing business with other Germans). Same thing happened later when people lamented that Irish and Italian immigrants would never assimilate. Yet, all of these people became what you now refer to as "Real Americans". So, I ask again...Why is it that Indians (not just Indians, I could substitute, Bosnians, Kenyans, Mexicans) are expected to drop their birth cultures upon arrival in America, when previous generations of immigrants did not? Certainly we've benefitted as a country from the influence of other cultures in the past. <<>> Untrue. Americans succesfully and quite often enjoybably travel and live all over the world. Have you done much, if any travelling outside of the US? <<>> You're comparing America to France without considering the signifcant differences between the two countries. <<>> You've asserted facts not in evidence, gone off on tangents, attributed political ideologies and ethnic backgrounds without proof, and consistently misquoted both myself and Padshore, but you have the hubris to comment on my debating skills. Laughable. I have no obligation to name the substantial outsourced contracts. You made the assertion that there were none. And then further asserted that there never would be any, because of some SMARTNESS that would only allow "Real American IT workers" to truly develop software from the ground up. I have no obligation to prove that there are large numbers of Americans displacing IT workers, because I never made that statement. I have no obligation to compare American charity with any other countries charity, because I made no statements relating to this. Though, I would encourage you to make the comparison on your own time giving each country fair consideration in regard to size and wealth, not simply comparing $$ to $$. I have no obligation to prove where bigotry does and does not exist. I made no statements about that. Because I know many intelligent conservatives, I won't paint you all with one broad brush. Would you like to prove that conservatives of your ilk, aren't poster children for anti-intellectualism whose sole contribution to debate of any kind is limited to sound bites, half-truths, fear mongering, hyperbole, bloated limbaughisms, and the dominance of style over substance that embarasses intelligent conservatives and makes everyone to the right appear to be backwards and rednecked. <<>> You have been plenty liberaly with the name calling. Apparently you can't handle it when people respond to your bile likewise. A fact is something that is universally proven. Your personal experience is not fact. The limited personal experiences of your family friends and coworkers is not fact. Your statement of things that are not fact, does not make them fact. <<< Every Indian IT worker I have encountered does not want to assimilate but instead prefers to work and socialize with their own "people".>>> Again, you fail to define assimilation. <<>> Your personal experience. Others have had different experiences. <<>> The name calling was originated by you. So either retract each and every incident and apologize for each and every incident in which you've resorted to name calling, or stop bawling about it. Besides posting hate-filled rantings and "getting rid of" co-workers who have ethnic backgrounds that you dissaprove of, what have you done to help? Have you participated in any kind of events that might lead you to greater understanding of other cultures? Have you done any introspection that might illuminate your own personal flaws and shortcomings that might be behind your attitudes? I'd venture to say that the entire world is full of bigots. I could go even further and say that just about everyone one of us harbors some sort of fear, resentment, or underlying distrust or dislike of at least one group of people. That makes us human. Refusing to acknowledge this and refusing to do this self exploration to discover the reasons behind this makes people shallow and idiotic. <<>> Didn't we address this earlier? <<>> They may, or they may not. A bigot may feel obligated because of religion or other factors to donate to foreign charity. The gift of money (or service) is not always indicative of attitude towards the people receiving the charity. Alot of people donate money to third world countries because helping the brown skinned savages makes them feel even more superior. <<>> This has nothing to do with the debate. Once again, prove that charity work (or rather unproven claims of generous donations made on an internet forum) make your remarks immune from response and criticism. That is what is relevant to this debate. <<>> The only proof that you've ever helped anybody but yourself is your own remarks. If that wins a debate, I would like to assert here and now that I am wealthy, a size 4, and omnipotent. What are your charitable donations to the less fortunate? Boxes of bootstraps? <<>> I will only address this idiotic remark, because of it's potential impact on the reputation of another poster. I am not Padshore. I do not know Padshore. My only take on Padshore's remarks are the words in his/her post. You responded to Padshore's with misquotes and rantings, much of which had nothing to do with any statements that were actually made by Padshore. Case in point, you made remarks about Padshore whining about "poor Indian immigrants", but there were no such remarks in Padshore's post. In order to illuminate your idiocy, I addressed remarks you made to and about Padshore. This is what happens on public forums. Deal with it or head to Fox news or Nascar Dads. <<>> Can't own your words? Too bad. <<>> Personal experience is not the be all end all you seem to think it is. Intelligent conversation depends on one's ability to consider ones own personal experience along with contradicting personal experience and universal fact. <<>> Are you capable of seeing outside of this exchange? Are you able to see that the rhetoric is just as thick on your side of the issue. <<>> Nobody would, and I'm open to discussion about outsourcing and the damage it does to the American worker. But, hate is hate, bigotry is bigotry. Both do nothing to further a point of view.