Finally, a piece on out-sourcing that tells us how to respond. I've always put technology skills ahead of business skills and, after reading your article, I will rethink where I put my learning energies. <p>Thanks Tom.

Don,<BR>
<P>
Good advice. I received my computer science degree from UCLA 29 years ago<BR>
and made a conscience effort on my first day on the job to think of myself<BR>
as a businessman first and a programmer/technology person second. I have<BR>
always wanted to solve business solutions in the best and most economical<BR>
way possible.<BR>
<P>
I truly believe that has been the secret to my success.<BR>
<P>
Fortunately, I've been in management since day 1 and had the authority to<BR>
create solutions in my vision. But that vision always revolved around the<BR>
end user, not the programmer. I have weekly staff meetings with my AS/400<BR>
programmers and the one thing I say almost every week is that our job is to<BR>
make the end user's life easier, not the programmer's. It may make our life<BR>
(as programmers) harder to do that, but so be it. Our only reason for being<BR>
employed is to server others. Never take the shortcuts that cause end users<BR>
to have to do work arounds.<BR>
<P>
<P>
<P>
"Don Denoncourt" < This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it > wrote in message<BR>
news: This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it <BR>
> Finally, a piece on out-sourcing that tells us how to respond. I've always<BR>
put technology skills ahead of business skills and, after reading your<BR>
article, I will rethink where I put my learning energies.<BR>
><BR>
> Thanks Tom.<BR>
<P>
<P>

Great article. I guess the whining (not you Mr. Stockwell) about jobs going away needs to stop and start being responsible for one's career. Each of us needs to do whatever is necessary to take of ourselves and families. Don't count on anyone else to do it for you. <p>Tom.

In other words, if you don't find a place in management (or convince upper mgmt to make one for you) your place in history is, well history. For those of you who actually enjoyed coding, it was fun while it lasted, wasn't it? Heck, if you move to another country you might still get to do the work you loved (at a greatly reduced rate however). And you thought "learn Java or die" was going to end your career...............

Tom, <p>Your article is a good one, and to the point. <p>However, I have one question that, unfortunately, you nor others can seem to answer. What can someone who has built their career on a specific field (i.e. IBM Midrange)(and has also functioned as a department manager, programmer, programmer/analyst, and business analyst) do who has a salary level that is higher than what the market is paying? If these jobs are going overseas, and the jobs that we are qualified for (because of "displacement") pay alot less money, and we have a family to support, and kids to put through college, and a mortgage to pay, what do we do? Get a second job to continue to support our family? Maybe I should move to India, and see what I can do there, and send my paycheck home to the USA. <p>The solutions you offer seem to work for consultants, and single people, but they don't seem to be applicable (unless I am not understanding something here) to an IT worker who has a family to support. I am qualified for lots of jobs, but the pay is at least 20% less than what I am making now. What would you recommend I do? Take a salary cut and hope for the best, or stay at the job I am at, lose my "marketable" skills, and hope I don't get outsourced? <p>Training? My employer will not sponsor any unless it is job related. I can't pay for a second degree. I guess I should just take the salary cut, and see where it goes from there, since I am most likely going to get outsourced at sometime in my career. <p>It does not seem fair to me that I should suffer because of all the hard work and hours I put in. I am told to give 120% to the company, which I do. Then I get rewarded via benefits. Apparently, now my benefits are 'too expensive', and management is telling me that even though I am a good worker (and I gave the 120%), they are going to penalize me because they gave me too many benefits. Should I have refused the increases or bonuses I received because I did my best and made their systems better in the process, or allowed others in the company to be more efficient? I guess that does not matter. So give me a reason why I should give 120% of my effort to my job. It's not worth it anymore. What kind of job can't be outsourced? To me, that seems to be the career to transition to. Maybe I should become a carpenter, plumber or landscaper. <p>The problem is that the outsourcing we are seeing now is not being done COMPETITIVELY. What we are seeing now is unfair outsourcing, as the other countries do not have the laws and benefits that we have in the US. Our economy and standard of living will suffer and theirs will improve. This will level the world's economy and keep the US from being in a leadership position. <p>Sorry if this seems depressing, but I don't see any silver lining in this outsourcing cloud.

Perhaps we should all become plumbers. It is unlikely that our pipes and sewer systems will fall prey to the outsourcing frenzy. Well,... maybe the just outlets, as there is ample precedent already. <p>Unless the quality of overseas programming skills has increased immensely, I doubt the trend will last. Some years ago, while working for a company that sent Y2K work to India, it had to be sent back several times, and ultimately, some parts fixed back here. Also, I am sure that when they get up to speed, their own businesses and government will need them, salaries will rise, cultural and time differences will be shown to impede services, and short-term gains will disappear. <p>Logic and skill do not go out of fashion as easily as programming languages. There will be reductions and changes. But fortunately, the US probably has the best educated and hardest working population in the world. Unfortunately, much of that population will suffer until the string-pullers decide outsourcing is not as profitable as they thought.

Tonight (Monday 3/15/04) on the CBS Evening News with Dan Rather they are scheduled to air a report "... on why so many American businesses prefer to hire NON-Americans." In another word: outsourcing. <p>Also, the issue of outsourcing is discussed just about every night on CNN's Lou Dobbs Tonight which airs 6-7 p.m. ET Monday-Friday

<i>As U.S. jobs move abroad, more Americans are willing to work overseas. ....</i> <p><a href="http://money.cnn.com/2004/03/09/pf/workers_to_india/index.htm">http://money.cnn.com/2004/03/09/pf/workers_to_india/index.htm</a>

Sonnyc1 said: "In other words, if you don't find a place in management (or<BR>
convince upper mgmt to make one for you) your place in history is, well<BR>
history."<BR>
<P>
That's exactly the wrong attitude. Being a business man first (or business<BR>
woman) and a programmer second has NOTHING to do with being in management.<BR>
It has everything to do with solving business problems. If you can solve<BR>
business problems without jargon, without bringing up why it CAN'T be done<BR>
and with ease then you will be a valuable resource to the company. Coding<BR>
can be done by many drones, it's the solving of business challenges that is<BR>
very hard to export.<BR>
<P>
If you simply love coding and want to sit in a corner all day long and do<BR>
that then, yes, your opportunities for working in the U.S. will be limited<BR>
in the future. If you come with fresh ideas that help improve a company's<BR>
bottom line then your opportunities are unlimited.<BR>
<P>
chuck<BR>
Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.<BR>
<P>
<P>

Doug,<BR>
<P>
A good Sr. P/A in SoCal can get in the 6 digit range, or thereabouts. Are<BR>
you getting 20% more than that and can't support a family?<BR>
<P>
chuck<BR>
Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.<BR>
<P>
"Doug Englander" < This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it > wrote in message<BR>
news: This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it <BR>
> Tom,<BR>
><BR>
> Your article is a good one, and to the point.<BR>
><BR>
> However, I have one question that, unfortunately, you nor others can seem<BR>
to answer. What can someone who has built their career on a specific field<BR>
(i.e. IBM Midrange)(and has also functioned as a department manager,<BR>
programmer, programmer/analyst, and business analyst) do who has a salary<BR>
level that is higher than what the market is paying? If these jobs are going<BR>
overseas, and the jobs that we are qualified for (because of "displacement")<BR>
pay alot less money, and we have a family to support, and kids to put<BR>
through college, and a mortgage to pay, what do we do? Get a second job to<BR>
continue to support our family? Maybe I should move to India, and see what I<BR>
can do there, and send my paycheck home to the USA.<BR>
><BR>
> The solutions you offer seem to work for consultants, and single people,<BR>
but they don't seem to be applicable (unless I am not understanding<BR>
something here) to an IT worker who has a family to support. I am qualified<BR>
for lots of jobs, but the pay is at least 20% less than what I am making<BR>
now. What would you recommend I do? Take a salary cut and hope for the best,<BR>
or stay at the job I am at, lose my "marketable" skills, and hope I don't<BR>
get outsourced?<BR>
><BR>
> Training? My employer will not sponsor any unless it is job related. I<BR>
can't pay for a second degree. I guess I should just take the salary cut,<BR>
and see where it goes from there, since I am most likely going to get<BR>
outsourced at sometime in my career.<BR>
><BR>
> It does not seem fair to me that I should suffer because of all the hard<BR>
work and hours I put in. I am told to give 120% to the company, which I do.<BR>
Then I get rewarded via benefits. Apparently, now my benefits are 'too<BR>
expensive', and management is telling me that even though I am a good worker<BR>
(and I gave the 120%), they are going to penalize me because they gave me<BR>
too many benefits. Should I have refused the increases or bonuses I received<BR>
because I did my best and made their systems better in the process, or<BR>
allowed others in the company to be more efficient? I guess that does not<BR>
matter. So give me a reason why I should give 120% of my effort to my job.<BR>
It's not worth it anymore. What kind of job can't be outsourced? To me, that<BR>
seems to be the career to transition to. Maybe I should become a carpenter,<BR>
plumber or landscaper.<BR>
><BR>
> The problem is that the outsourcing we are seeing now is not being done<BR>
COMPETITIVELY. What we are seeing now is unfair outsourcing, as the other<BR>
countries do not have the laws and benefits that we have in the US. Our<BR>
economy and standard of living will suffer and theirs will improve. This<BR>
will level the world's economy and keep the US from being in a leadership<BR>
position.<BR>
><BR>
> Sorry if this seems depressing, but I don't see any silver lining in this<BR>
outsourcing cloud.<BR>
<P>
<P>

Chuck, <p>No, I'm not getting 20% over a 6 digit salary. I guess I won't know if I can do it unless I actually have the "opportunity" to do it. <p>As bobtheplanet said, logic and skill don't go out of fashion as easily as programming languages do. So I'll stick to that for now to see where it gets me. I can write specs in english for any programming language, as long as I don't have to program in any language. I have done that already. I guess I have always felt comfortable (when writing specs for an RPG programmer) that I could code the solution if the programmer was stuck. Now I won't have that luxury (as I'm not planning on learning a new language at this time), but maybe I didn't even need it in the first place. Maybe just knowing waht it will take to get a job done on the system is enough these days.

Perhaps salaries run that high in Southern California, but last time I checked they don't run that high in many other places. Perhaps more companies should start looking at the highly inflated salaries of personnel in Management positions. They might be able to save a nice chunk of change.

For Tom: <p>Interesting article and good insights, keep up the great work! <p>For cycleman: <p>cycleman wrote 'Maybe I should move to India, and see what I can do there, and send my paycheck home to the USA.'. <p>I work in IT for a large organization, (in the USA), with many co-workers from India and am already dealing with people that are ‘offshore’. I work closely, (that is, here in the USA), with 2 of them, (from India), and they have told me that over in India a salary, (in US currency), of $15,000 to $25,000 dollars a year would enable a person, (over in India), to live like a Raj, (King in English). <p>Are there any recruiters out there attempting to recruit US workers to India? <p>With this new so called ‘global economy’, maybe job hopping may begin to include ‘country hopping’. <p>In theory, a so called ‘benefit’ of having people working and collaborating in different time zones is a constant 24 hour a day push on the business solutions.

In many small shops a programmer is also the person talking to the "users" to implement the business logic. Part of the challenge of programming (and the fun!) is implementing the business logic in code. Overpriced "middlemen" aren't really "needed" in this scenario. You have two positions for the price of one!

Tom Stockwell's very important article identifies and articulates a realistic and much needed road-map towards saving and securing the job of the American programmer. <p>American programmers must double or triple their productivity and value to their corporate employers, or lose their jobs to more competitive, more motivated, less expensive, and far better trained programmers. <p>Tom has identified the start of that path, and American programmers <BR>
need start by snapping off Friends or the football game and actually <BR>
try to become competitive. That is exactly what their competitors are doing.

The problem here is that I don't believe that this will help very much. <p>There are many outsourcing premises that are based on false assumptions. That is why the majority of outsourcing efforts when viewed in totality, are actually a detriment to the bottom line. <p>For instance the assumption that American programmers are lazy and non-productive when compared to their foreign counterparts simply does not hold water. An examination of outsourcing efforts will show that the firm managing the project has placed far more people on a given project (in many cases more than twice the resources) than were available to the company in the first place. <p>It is fairly easy in most cases to show Gantt Chart productivity gains when more resources are allocated to a task. That's in most cases. Productivity often breaks down because the lines of communication are muddied with layers. Line workers who use systems, and may have had local input into the needs and requirements are often not consulted when a project is outsourced. Design efforts are invariably made only at the highest level, and by the outsourcing management. The design is invariably tailored to talents of the foreign resources, who, familiar with the type of specifications delivered, can knock it out easily. <p>It is possible to compete in this handicap match, but certainly not easy. Take an individual foreign resource out of this environment, and place them toe-to-toe with American resources, pay them exactly the same, and then let's see who is more productive dollar for dollar. <p>Dave

Chuck, <p>I find those remarks highly offensive..... And a lousy Bee-Hive analogy at that! <p>At least Drones are pampered and fed and get to make love to the Queen once in their short lives before they're driven out of the Hive to shrivel-up and die. <p>Worker Bees on the other hand, live long, productive (though sterile, celibate) lives. So I really think that the coders you're eluding to would be more appropriately referred to as "Worker Bees". <p>But once the colony starts driving the Worker Bees out of the Hive, they're messing with Mother Nature. ;) <p>BZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

This is a discussion about <B>Look up from Your Code! Where Has Your Job Gone?</b>.<p align='center'><a href=http://www.mcpressonline.com/mc? This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it @.6ae9cb6b>Click here for the article</a>.</p>

The fundamental problem with this "issue" is that it's the same typical media hype on almost every topic today that drives opinion and not facts. COTS applications were supposed to do this years ago, but large consultant firms(writing custom business code, etc) are stronger than ever. Then came SAP, Siebel, Documentum, etc. This has made technical skills even more important in this country than ever before. Now a company like IBM can make OS code offshore - so what? It's not like they didn't or couldn't do it before. In order for a job to be off-shored, generally the company has to see significant ROI - like the poor fellow who on TV recently lost his job with BP to some "enterprising" off-shore company for pennies. The point is that his job was probably 100% mechanical and unfortunately for him BP figured it out. The only way to offshore most programming business jobs is to offshore the thinking of people who require those systems. Do you know how many times a day a mere programmer suggests a better way to do something and gets rejected outright because "that's the way we do business". If the current client that I work for now would heed our suggestions we would be gone in months, not years, way, way under budget and a substantial savings to them. <p>But what I'm really interested in is what programming jobs will be off-shored? If a company cannot buy a COTS app now and requires only custom programming to run their business then I would bet that company is run by a bunch of morons. Most iSeries, Sun, Wintel shops start with COTS and go from there, why else does a business buy the box(s)? <p>I do believe those jobs targeted for offshore can be easily identified, and that has already been done, the rest of us are in no more in danger of being off-shored then we were with COTS, or SAP or Java taking over programming. The devil is in the details and I have yet to hear anyone prove this other than the standard rhetoric. Plus no one has enough experience to prove that a customer can actually work with someone thousands of miles away and be productive. The paperless office and telecommuting were all the rage - what happened to them? <p>If most customers complain today that the "fill in the blanks" doesn't meet my needs, then how does thousands of miles help anything? It doesn't and once companies figure that out off-shoring will remain the privy of large companies who have way, way too much overhead anyway. Not to say that all change is bad, it usually makes people better. <p>The bottom line is for me, is that it makes great media fodder but "prove" it. We already know that you can build a car in Japan and sell it here or what now are local Toyota assemblies. What I want to know is, if we have no economy who are they going to sell too? In the end their economy is tied to ours.