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IBM vs. Microsoft in the Midrange

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  • IBM vs. Microsoft in the Midrange

    or should I say i5 fans? Check out the December 13, 2004 issue of InfoWorld - http://archive.infoworld.com/reports/50SRpower5.html http://www.infoworld.com/article/04/...OPcurve_1.html The front cover page even features the POWER5 chip!

  • #2
    IBM vs. Microsoft in the Midrange

    I think it would be the Green Screen of Death (GSOD) ;-)

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    • #3
      IBM vs. Microsoft in the Midrange

      Chuck Ackerman wrote: > Robert Dean said: "2) Forced OEMs that wanted to bundle Windows to > bundle Office." > > Of course, until recently, those wishing to purchase an AS/400 or > iSeries was forced to purchase OS/400. A forced bundle that you must > have. But the anti-Microsoft crowd doesn't see that in the same light > as a PC with Windows. The 400 bundle is like comparing why you can't purchase a Dodge engine in your Ford van. The Microsoft bundling is like purchasing your Dodge van but you are required to purchase the leather package and DVD player. > I started to see cheap PCs, under $200, at Fry's in the early fall > and they didn't include anything but FREE software. Linux, > OpenOffice, etc. That stopped about 2 months ago so I can only > presume that they got a ton of backlash from customers that got the > machine home, found out it didn't come with Windows and a Microsoft > package (Office or Works) and promptly returned them. Interesting interpretion. Since they no longer advertise the ability to purchase a Microsoft operating system at a substantial discount when a hard drive is also purchased, do you think there was a backlash because there wasn't a PC attached? Also, a quick look at Outpost.com shows that the systems are still available -- at $279. Bill

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      • #4
        IBM vs. Microsoft in the Midrange

        Bill said: "The 400 bundle is like comparing why you can't purchase a Dodge engine in > your Ford van. The Microsoft bundling is like purchasing your Dodge van > but you are required to purchase the leather package and DVD player." I'm not buying it. Your answer is the same I've heard for more than a decade and it doesn't work now like it didn't work last century. The OS is the engine of a computer. Without an engine the van won't run. Simply because the PC company purchases the engine from another vendor instead of making it itself doesn't change my analogy. It's still the engine. A PC without an OS is a lump of metal and plastic. IBM chose to include their engine in the AS/400, which is exactly what the PC makers do also. Would you buy an AS/400 without an OS? Bill also said: "Interesting interpretion. Since they no longer advertise the ability to > purchase a Microsoft operating system at a substantial discount when a hard > drive is also purchased, do you think there was a backlash because there > wasn't a PC attached? Also, a quick look at Outpost.com shows that the > systems are still available -- at $279." However, last Friday's Fry's ad had a $299 PC with Windows XP thrown in. Which would you buy, the $299 with XP or $279 with Linux? (BTW, the XP machine also had 256mb, 40 gig, NIC, modem, display adapter, KB and mouse. Not a bad price.) chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

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        • #5
          IBM vs. Microsoft in the Midrange

          Chuck Ackerman wrote: A PC without an OS is a lump of metal and plastic. IBM chose to include their engine in the AS/400 While IBM chooses to include the OS, it is not the choice of PC makers. This is according to several court decisions. Recent memory recalls many DOS versions for the PC, and even a few GUIs. If I state that there was coersion and abuse coming from Redmond, it is not my opinion, but rather that of several courts, state governments, and even the governments of several foreign countries. At this point there is not much left. A manufacture who chooses an OS other than Windows may be left out in the cold. Dave

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          • #6
            IBM vs. Microsoft in the Midrange

            David, I think you're missing my point, which is: IBM has done EXACTLY what Microsoft did. Yet nobody took them to court, nobody complains, and the vast majority of AS/400 users, as evidenced by the responses of this board, simply deny that IBM is guilty of the same thing as Microsoft. Why? I'm not sure. Certainly, in it's heyday the IBM midrange had huge market share. And, some might argue, that IBM pushed its competitors out of business. Yet the anti-Microsoft crowd is so filled with rage toward MS that they simply fail to see the obvious. I know the iSeries is a wonderful machine, but imagine, just imagine, how much BETTER it would have been had IBM needed to compete in the OS world. We'd have a CL that was worth something. We'd have a web development environment that didn't require 2 years of dedicated training in which to be productive. We would have a free format RPG in 1990. We would have seen marketing like IBM was serious about the product. Unfortunately, what we have now is a result of lack of competition on the platform. Lackisadasical marketing and forced WebSphere. And, eventually I believe, an end of the product line as we know it. What a shame. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "David Abramowitz" wrote in message news:6b2024c5.32@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > Chuck Ackerman wrote: A PC without an OS is a lump of metal and plastic. IBM chose to include their engine in the AS/400 > > While IBM chooses to include the OS, it is not the choice of PC makers. This is according to several court decisions. > > Recent memory recalls many DOS versions for the PC, and even a few GUIs. If I state that there was coersion and abuse coming from Redmond, it is not my opinion, but rather that of several courts, state governments, and even the governments of several foreign countries. > > At this point there is not much left. A manufacture who chooses an OS other than Windows may be left out in the cold. > > Dave

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            • #7
              IBM vs. Microsoft in the Midrange

              I don't consider myself an expert by an means. All your arguments are sound, but if I am in a SMB IT shop(I used to be) telling a IT directory your system can run Windows and Linux applications, by adding them on to your expensive I5 server by linking a XSeries server, still doesn't make sense. IT directories want cheap now, this quarter, this year. It saves $ a year or two down the road, good luck. They will say why can't I just run it on a cheap Windows or Linux standalone server or cluster (hey Dell has sale this week), why add another level of complexity. Maybe consolidation is working in big shops, but are the samll shops listening. They'll say most of my small/medium applications use Access, Foxpro, SQL Server or Oracle, maybe DB2 if your lucky what do I need I5/OS server for. #1 Few applications for I5/OS, No advertsing, no knowledge outside of OS400 community(colleges, non tech people), no native GUI(Ops navigator is Microsoft and web based)(what about my Peer to Peer apps that require a GUI on the server), proprietory image, not competitive pricing, continued press about how many more years does this server have before it goes the way of the alpha servers, can I run I5/OS on my PC, can I run it off of Intel/AMD based servers instead of of Power based servers, is it open source like Linux, does come with more modern languages or can they be ported easily i.e Perl, TCL, PHP, whatever scripting language you can think of, can I run my applications without other operating systems being required(What is happening with PACE(which should be free)/QSH), why do you have to pay extra for SQL(isn't that part of DB2), can I run Windows without requiring additional hardware. They'll believe you about the proven reliability, but beyond that will they even listen. This is the best business server as far as I am concerned, but putting it on administrators and business partners to save it is nonsense. I5/OS needs more than a name change to save it. This OS is better in my opinion than Linux, it needs to be sold as such(an all round IT server not just business), not simply say and we can run Windows/Linux too. Wasn't the design of OS/400 S/38 supposedly based on the best ideas of Unix and mainframe technologies and ideas, with the idea of eventually replacing them. Isn't it supposed to be hardware independent. If it only fills that small part of your shop now, they'll find a way to put Windows/Linux there instead. It needs a modern face lift(port X Windows to run natively in I5/OS). They need to take a look at how inferior systems (Microsoft, Linux, Oracle) have been able to sell their products and do the same, if not better. Finally if there is anyway to bring the price down, they need to do it or Windows/Linux supports will have you for lunch.

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              • #8
                IBM vs. Microsoft in the Midrange

                all true points, nstelmack. You are not going to believe this, but IBM is so stupid they have claimed to believe for a number of years now, roughly coinciding with when Websphere was deemed to be the reason for IBM's existence, that the AS/400 is some kind of disk server that one should want to partition into Windows, Linux, Unix, and as a shell OS OS/400. Why? you ask. So presumably in this IBM dreamworld someone can start a backup in OS/400 to back up all the disk for all the operating systems in the company. I am not making this up. I wish I were. rd

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                • #9
                  IBM vs. Microsoft in the Midrange

                  Chuck Ackerman wrote: IBM has done EXACTLY what Microsoft did I would disagree with this statement. The desktop is pervasive, and is found not only in business, but also in homes, schools, etc. To me, at least, there is a difference between marketing to a business sub-segment, and marketing to the planet. Dave

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                  • #10
                    IBM vs. Microsoft in the Midrange

                    The point is that Dodge has put Dodge/Chrysler/Plymouth engines in some cars and Mitsubishi engines in others... It is their choice. Apple makes the hardware AND the software. They should be allowed to put their software in their hardware. IBM makes the hardware AND the software. They should be allowed to put their software in their hardware. Dell, HP, ect... make only the hardware. Microsoft makes one OS that can be put on the hardware. Shouldn't the maker of the Hardware get to choose what software they use? Of course, but they can't. Microsoft can't make the hardware because they are already a monopoly. Microsoft used to be "IBM compatable". IBM tried to choose their own PC software for their PC hardware and even they couldn't survive M$. The point is that if you make the hardware, you should get to choose the software. You don't see Ford saying that they are not going to make cars anymore ... but... they are still going to make engines. Since they are still making engines that could go into all other cars... they want to force all the other auto companies to only use their engine. This is of course obsurd. - i5pro

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                    • #11
                      IBM vs. Microsoft in the Midrange

                      You would have to be crazy to get into computers today. Kids would be better off learning a good trade. Every time I need a plumber or auto mechanic, I end up paying at least $120 an hour... and these people are always busy. My car is in for 2 hours and I get charged for 6 hours. Imagine how much money we could make if we got paid hourly for what a book said the hours should be? We would be rich. Not only that, the skills they use to do their jobs don't completely change every few years. They only have to learn how to install a toilet once. I relatively make hardly any money. It just gets worse and worse every year for computer people. I have to rebuild my skills every couple years... I used to just run the AS/400 and that was plenty. Now "for free" I have to run Domino. I have to run Websphere. I have to know Java. I have to run Windows, I have to run Linux, I have to run AIX. I have to know about Apache now. I have to know about Ant and Struts. Javascript, Lotusscript, 10 different scripting languages, SQL, XML. What's next? When will it ever end? And...where is the money we where all promised back in high school and college when we got into computers. This is the thanks we get from saving the world from Y2K? We solved the problem perfectly, there was no after effects, and we were hero's. The problem is that only we know it. Where is our reward for saving the world?

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                      • #12
                        IBM vs. Microsoft in the Midrange

                        ** This thread discusses the article: IBM vs. Microsoft in the Midrange **
                        ** This thread discusses the Content article: IBM vs. Microsoft in the Midrange0

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                        • #13
                          IBM vs. Microsoft in the Midrange

                          ** This thread discusses the article: IBM vs. Microsoft in the Midrange **
                          Having actually grown up with the midrange and each of its incarnations, I don't entirely agree with the idea that i5/OS is revolutionary rather than evolutionary. While OS/400 was really a new OS compared to CPF, to me i5/OS is just a rebranding of a great OS gotten even better. Two reasons: 1. The first "version" of i5/OS is V5R3. 2. Read IBM's own information. If you go to the page you suggest and click on i5/OS, you will go to the iSeries Information Center for V5R3 of OS/400. In fact, it says: Note: IBM i5/OS(TM) is the next generation of OS/400(R). The documentation in the iSeries Information Center may refer to i5/OS as OS/400. I don't know about you, but if I were releasing a new operating system, I'd at least renumber the damn thing and write some new documentation. Kudos on the article, though. It really makes an important point: we don't need to fight Microsoft, we simply need to co-exist with it. OS/400, or whatever IBM chooses to call it, is simply the best OS out there, and it proves it by becoming more and more open. This is the exact opposite of what Microsoft is doing by going ever more proprietary. If anybody remembers the original PC wars, a proprietary closed design is what killed the PS/2. And just as the legendary IBM brand wasn't enough to force consumers to pay outrageous prices for mediocre proprietary computers, Microsoft's near-mythical status isn't going to be enough to answer the world's demands for open software. Frankly, some of us are seeing some serious signs of wear in the old beast already. Joe

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                          • #14
                            IBM vs. Microsoft in the Midrange

                            ** This thread discusses the article: IBM vs. Microsoft in the Midrange **
                            You can still run S/36 software on the I5. IBM can call it what it wants to call it, but everyone else on the planet will still refer to the box as an AS400. And. . . .there is no one at IBM who will correct you if you say AS400 to them when referring to an "I" box. Dave

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                            • #15
                              IBM vs. Microsoft in the Midrange

                              ** This thread discusses the article: IBM vs. Microsoft in the Midrange **
                              David said: "IBM can call it what it wants to call it, but everyone else on the planet will still refer to the box as an AS400." Amen! chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

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