Oracle Courts PeopleSoft's iSeries Users

Oracle Courts PeopleSoft's iSeries Users

** This thread discusses the article: Oracle Courts PeopleSoft's iSeries Users **
"Yeah, but Tony somebody had to WRITE that application, and it's my assertion that it's much easier to do that in RPG than in ABAP or PL/SQL." Joe, programmers code these non-WEB applications using 4GL tools like SQL*FORMS. It's a 30 to 1 ratio of productivity. The only effort done to convert/WEBenabled these applications is to click that mouse button.

Oracle Courts PeopleSoft's iSeries Users

** This thread discusses the article: Oracle Courts PeopleSoft's iSeries Users **
Dave, SAP and ORACLE are doing it. Don't you know that 6 out of 10 web sites are using ORACLE DBMS and/or tools. Remember, to be successful in this career of ours is to always ride with a winner/leading products may it be an ERP, a sofware tools, or a platform otherwise obsolescense will kill our career. In my case, if I stick with PL/I or DEC/VAX early on in my career, then I'm as cold as a dead meat like some others I knew. Sometimes, we have to change our horses in the middle of the game to keep abreast with the fast changing technology.

[J.Pluta]

Oracle Courts PeopleSoft's iSeries Users

** This thread discusses the article: Oracle Courts PeopleSoft's iSeries Users **
Just click a button to the present business application programs or screens you have right now and walla you're application is on the web. Yeah, but Tony somebody had to WRITE that application, and it's my assertion that it's much easier to do that in RPG than in ABAP or PL/SQL. And by the way, what acronyms did I use that confused you? Joe

Oracle Courts PeopleSoft's iSeries Users

** This thread discusses the article: Oracle Courts PeopleSoft's iSeries Users **
I find this discussion of the speed of coding an application of SQL vs. RPG only mildly interesting. I will throw in my 2 cents worth from a management point of view... I have a staff of 18 programmers so I have a vested interest in programmer productivity. I want them to be able to produce usable applications as quickly as possible. With that in mind, I don't consider programmer productivity my number one concern. By far, end user productivity and application usability is my number one concern. For that reason, I don't believe that native, green screen RPG is the most useful language overall. It's useful in a lot of ways, but not for most solutions. For example, we believe that the most productive end user environment is browser based. There are so many advantages of a browser as a user interface that it makes no sense to do any green screen programming. Users are SIGNIFICANTLY more productive in a browser than a green screen. Programming directly in RPG for browser based applications is very difficult and mundane. Tools are the best answer. Our tool of choice is WebSmart. Another example: Often users want information quickly and in a format that they can manipulate. I have a programmer on my staff that can create a query in ASC's SEQUEL, download it to a spreadsheet and have it emailed to the user in a matter of minutes. He's the "go to" guy when that kind of solution is needed. That'd be a pain to do in RPG. ASC's SEQEL is all SQL based. We have a very robust public web site that has a lot of functionality built into the web page. Most of that work is either JavaScript or Active Server Pages. Most of it would take a lot longer to do within RPG. Much of it could not be accomplished in RPG. So, while one person can cite SPECIFIC examples showing why RPG is faster to develop in, and another person can show specific examples why SQL is a better development platform, none of that is really important. What's important is what makes the end user more productive. If my developer takes 50% longer to develop a business solution but it saves 500 users 10 minutes per day then they are wildly successful. Developer's productivity is trivial compared to end user productivity. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. Except in this case!

[dmjae2004@yahoo.com]

Oracle Courts PeopleSoft's iSeries Users

** This thread discusses the article: Oracle Courts PeopleSoft's iSeries Users **
You missed the boat big time here. Your idea of the future was/is here. OK I have also missed the boat...well at least I'll have some company. I have spent a reasonable amount of time recently working with webservices. So far Ive seen simple difference in styles or complexity of messges such as recursive complex-types can create interopability problems. What tool is out there that supporting Reliable Messaging. Transaction Atomicity (across a combination of services), providing Auditability of the services, can support consumers of the services (at different versions) ? This could make my life far easier !

Oracle Courts PeopleSoft's iSeries Users

** This thread discusses the article: Oracle Courts PeopleSoft's iSeries Users **
Joe, You missed the boat big time here. Your idea of the future was/is here. You bring a lot of ACRONYMNS which confuses a technical guy like me, worse to the bean counters. A 4GL will give you an option wether WEBenabled version or NOT. Just click a button to the present business application programs or screens you have right now and walla you're application is on the web. This is PRODUCTIVITY... Some people call it AUTOMAGIC and believe me, or I suggest you get out and look at the other side of the fence. HAPPY NEW YEAR TO Y'ALL...

[J.Pluta]

Oracle Courts PeopleSoft's iSeries Users

** This thread discusses the article: Oracle Courts PeopleSoft's iSeries Users **
Hi Tony! Thansk for the input. And while I think it's great that you can code master file maintenance quickly, that's not what I consider the difficult part of programming. I've had the same discussion with some web-tool vendors who can toss together a really nice web-based DFU tool in just minutes. The difficult part is the business logic that you kind of shrug at. You say you can add "triggers" for it. How do you use a trigger to write special pricing logic? What language do you use for that? How do you debug it? Can I call that program from another program? Can I expose it as a web service? With a properly architected iSeries application, I can have servers running on the host that in turn talk to any sort of user interface I want, from green screen to JSP to thick client to web service. I know, I've already done it and it works fantastically. I can then move my UI to different platforms easily, WITHOUT having to worry about "platform independence" for my server. This is the best of all worlds for end users, because if an end user is changing their server hardware on a regular basis, they've got bigger problems). These servers can communicate with one another, or with any other part of the system. They can use RPG, COBOL, CL, C, C++, even Java as needed. My user interface isn't dictated by my choice of tools, either. I can use everything from .NET to J2EE to Visual Basic (not to mention good old green screen applications, the cheapest way to get applications to the shop floor). And the code for those interfaces is minimal, because all the work is done in the server. What I'd like to see is less time spent on screen designers (any junior programmer should be able to read and write a screen) and more time spent on properly designing business logic and providing it as servers. My guess is that once we get into those triggers you talk about, each programmer's code is going to be just as unique as any other language, and the maintainability will depend entirely on the programmer, not the tool. And once that happens, your 4GL tool is no longer so much help, because I'm debugging hand-written code. Am I making myself clear here at all? Today's 4GL tools only address a portion of the application development process, typically what we call master file maintenance and maybe screen design for other applications, but they are usually poor to very poor at business logic. Their languages tend to suck for business apps, and they tend to be tied pretty directly to their own specific user interface. Neither of these traits is exactly "next generation" stuff; in fact, it's much closer to the code generators we first saw in the late 80's. Personally, I think the next generation of tools is going to be all about messaging. You'll design the entire system from messages. User interfaces will be about displaying messages to the user and then sending their response back as a message. Messages will be automatically routed to the appropriate server. Versioning and deprecation will be supported, allowing gradual replacement in the field. Web services will be a natural artifact of the system. UI tools will be designed to support messages and won't give a hoot about the back-end language. Similarly, servers can be written without caring about the UI. Platform independence is automatic, as you will be able to write your servers in any language on any platform, as long as they adhere to the standards. See, platform independence isn't about the language, it's about the architecture. And AFAIK, nobody has really addressed that. Check back with me later in 2005 for more information . Joe

[J.Pluta]

Oracle Courts PeopleSoft's iSeries Users

** This thread discusses the article: Oracle Courts PeopleSoft's iSeries Users **
you so thugishly demanded I don't respond to this sort of post nor to the people who make them, other than to occasionally reiterate that I don't respond to them. Joe

Oracle Courts PeopleSoft's iSeries Users

** This thread discusses the article: Oracle Courts PeopleSoft's iSeries Users **
Joe, SAP is using ABAP, and ORACLE is using its tools( SQL*FORMS, SQL*REPORTWRITER, SQL*PLUS etc..). I don't know how good an RPG programmer you are but I can talk for myself having started since the original cycle RPG up to I5 ILE. Using SDA, subfile and RPG I can code at least 9 lines of RPG codes to display and update a single file ( a 30 minutes conservative estimate ). In Oracle SQL*FORMS I will just give the table name and it will do the same fuction READ, DISPLAY and UPDATE at no programming at all at its basic to give you an insight of the product ( that's 1 minute chore ). This is productivity I am talking about. You can put triggers at Form, Block, Record, or Field Levels to customized your business logic. I've been to both worlds and I can differentiate the two. It's NIGHT and DAY.

[J.Pluta]

Oracle Courts PeopleSoft's iSeries Users

** This thread discusses the article: Oracle Courts PeopleSoft's iSeries Users **
The emergence of SQL and 4GL is the best thing that ever happened to the IT industry. Why? You compare RPG to SQL as a Pinto to a Mustang. That means you think you can programmer better and faster in your 4GL world. Opinions are great, but how about some facts? Please indicate three quantitative measures showing why SQL is better than native I/O. Use direct measurements, such as the benchmarks I have made freely available at http://forums.plutabrothers.com/IAAI. Next, name three quantitative measures showing how any OO language is more productive than RPG. Finally, define exactly what a 4GL is and what it does. Please show representative code for an MRP generation in the 4GL language of your choice. Identify how long it takes to code such a program, and how long it takes to run on a representative database. I GUARANTEE I can write one more quickly in RPG, and it will run as much as ten times faster as anything you can design. 4GLs are great for queries and reports, and maybe master file updates provided the edits aren't too difficult. But that's not the hard part of programming. The hard part of programming is MRP, or finite forward scheduling, or special pricing, or batch balancing, and I can bet you've never written one of those in SQL or a 4GL that will come close to what I can do in RPG. What 4GLs tend to do is level the playing field. They take away the features that really good programmers use. Come on, Tony, you and me, heads up. Let's have a program-off. I'll write up the specs for an MRP generation. You and I can code it. Let's see who gets done first, and whose actually works. Joe

[David Abramowitz]

Oracle Courts PeopleSoft's iSeries Users

** This thread discusses the article: Oracle Courts PeopleSoft's iSeries Users **

[*]Oracle is in debt up to its eyeballs[*]The JDE product really doesn't fit in with why Oracle went after Peoplesoft.[*]The JDE product is a positive asset that as a sale can generate income.[*]Selling off bits of an acquired company is a common practice.[*]JDE customers are not about to switch to Oracle Financials.[*]Oracle shareholders will approve such a sale.[*]Watch wait and see.[/list]Dave

Oracle Courts PeopleSoft's iSeries Users

** This thread discusses the article: Oracle Courts PeopleSoft's iSeries Users **
" What's the benefiot of independence if you can't use RPG, the most powerful business language on the planet?" Why would I ride a FORD PINTO over a FORD MUSTANG ? The emergence of SQL and 4GL is the best thing that ever happened to the IT industry. This is a by-product of a technological evolution. This is progress, to impede it, we might as well resurrect the venerable S-360 where ISAM and 3GL is the KING. The war of relational vs. hierarchical DBMS is over. ISAM is not even a DBMS it's only an access method tigthly wired to the OS and the hardware. Business requirements is not by choice, but dictated by the prevailing circumstances, of which IT plays a major role. Sometimes we blame ourselves as victims of our own making we called "Productivity" by using high-technology. People would like to slice and dice data even in the road with their PDAs like the IBM commercials, I call it HUMBUG.... But our pure cute RPG program will not allow us to do this trick.

[J.Pluta]

Oracle Courts PeopleSoft's iSeries Users

** This thread discusses the article: Oracle Courts PeopleSoft's iSeries Users **
This is a strong plus to Oracle... An OS is irrelevant. A DBMS and application development tools that can support any OS or hardware platform is superior. Is this not the open system mantra is all about ? And that's also why the Open Source mantra is basically offbase. The only people who need open source are people who sell software, not people who use it. People who use software need the best of breed, and as I've said over and over again, SQL sucks for best of breed business logic. Yes, you CAN write applications in SQL, but it's a heck of a lot easier using good old ISAM access. CHAIN beats SELECT in at least half of the typical uses in a business application, often by a wide margin. And that's where OS/400 beats the crap out of any other environment. You can seamlessly integrate SQL and ISAM access, using the strengths of each where appropriate. This is what I don't understand - some people will wail and gnash their teeth about being locked into hardware, yet they'll meekly submit to lowest common denominator software tools in the name of "open source" or "platform independence". What's the benefiot of independence if you can't use RPG, the most powerful business language on the planet? Now, SQLFORMS may be a wonderful 4GL, but like any 4GL, after you've created your screens you still have the real work to perform, which is the business logic. With SQLFORMS you have generic SQL or PL/SQL. Generic SQL is all but useless for any sort of database-driven logic, while PL/SQL is entirely Oracle-specific, further locking you into their model. And it's not a particularly pretty extension, either. And in either case, as far as I can tell the debugging is pretty rudimentary. Do NOT discount the incredible power of the IBM debugging model. A significant part of overall development productivity is determined by the debugging process, and OS/400's debugging is superior to just about anything out there. Joe

Oracle Courts PeopleSoft's iSeries Users

** This thread discusses the article: Oracle Courts PeopleSoft's iSeries Users **
Ralph said: "if Oracle's apps were so superior, they wouldn't have had to pull a Microsoft and buy the superior competition with cash cow money to eliminate it" Because we are living in a capitalistic model. Beat your competition if possible. As I have stated, Oracle is wanting in the I5 world, although they have penetrated with much success in other platforms. This is the only room for growth left to their products. Ralph said: "why would anyone run their Oracle database in a virtual Unix database server instead of a Unix database server - that's ridiculous" This is a strong plus to Oracle... An OS is irrelevant. A DBMS and application development tools that can support any OS or hardware platform is superior. Is this not the open system mantra is all about ?

[R.Daugherty]

Oracle Courts PeopleSoft's iSeries Users

** This thread discusses the article: Oracle Courts PeopleSoft's iSeries Users **
Oh good, Joe. I was afaid I might have been a little too subtle there. In my opinion, based on general package experince, GUI would be the least of a JDE shop's concerns, if there was any at all. And here I use the term GUI loosely to include web pages. As you know better than most, an AS/400 package customer cares about ongoing regulatory support, integration throughout with new technologies such as RFID to meet supply chain and internal integration requirements, ongoing advances in API's and interfaces to natively participate in industry and technological standards, and support that migrates those changes without breaking your operations or your wallet. I don't even accept that GUI as a term used by AS/400/iseries software companies, especially including IBM, is even useful or productive. That's a different argument, but certainly the various methods to move data to web pages are many and if a customer were migrating to OneWorld, for example, it's not because of "GUI", although the poor souls may have little choice but to say so, but instead because JD Edwards and then PeopleSoft were trying to make it an offer they couldn't refuse. Tony, if Oracle's apps were so superior, they wouldn't have had to pull a Microsoft and buy the superior competition with cash cow money to eliminate it. They and Microsoft think they can create virtual monopolies and charge anything they want, even forcing people to pay forever to use it. They have a long fall ahead of them. The vacuum of competition will be filled with open source, and the stampede will not be pretty. Dave, I think the drumbeat to JDE customers to move to OneWorld running against Oracle on the database server (and Tony, why would anyone run their Oracle database in a virtual Unix database server instead of a Unix database server - that's ridiculous) will be incessant, but it seems to me only good business sense to maintain enough maintenance programmers for JDE World that annual maintenance fees support to keep from abandoning the customers until they see the light, that Oracle will kill JDE. rd