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Paved Paradise: Faces of the IT Recession

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  • #16
    Paved Paradise: Faces of the IT Recession

    ** This thread discusses the article: Paved Paradise: Faces of the IT Recession **
    Harimau wrote: And you complain that Indian companies are making you jobless! If you go through the articles, and postings that I have written, you will never find a complaint about Indian companies. Just to be sure, I checked. In point of fact, I have repeatedly stated, that H1-B holders are actually victims in the course of events. What complaints there are focus on the willingness, nay practically eagerness, of American executives to accept the practice of outsourcing without the appropriate due diligence that they would apply to buying a personal bottle of wine! The complaints about H1-B, have not been about the program, or the holders, but rather the lies and abuses surrounding the program. The complaints about L-1 once again are not directed at the holders, but at the ersatz rationale used by corporations for this programs existence. Go back and read the actual text of the Jobs Protection Act of 2003. This is not xenaphobia, this is common sense, and in point of fact, most countries have had (for years) similar measures on their books. Give me a level playing field, and the complaints will stop. OTOH, I have seen one or two Bollywood movies. Saying that they suck would not do justice to suckiness. Dave

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    • #17
      Paved Paradise: Faces of the IT Recession

      ** This thread discusses the article: Paved Paradise: Faces of the IT Recession **
      The suckiness of Bollywood movies is irrelevant. They make movies that target a different audience. If their tastes do not agree with yours, that doesn't mean squat. 1000 movies a year for the last 20 years means they have found the formula for success -- just like Coca-Cola has done. I feel sorry for you for watching those couple of Bollywood movies. I don't watch any of them myself.

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      • #18
        Paved Paradise: Faces of the IT Recession

        ** This thread discusses the article: Paved Paradise: Faces of the IT Recession **
        As IT Director, I refused to outsource jobs... be it to US-based consultants or to India. For not listening to the crappy advice of PW, a VP of IT was brought in over my head. He promptly asked me to outsource AS/400 maintenance to India on the basis that he wanted my programmers to learn "new" skills. With the work outsourced, my folks lost their knowledge base in short order as all enhancements were done by contract personnel. I must give credit to my VP. He also refused the lure of SAP on the basis that our systems were perfectly adequate. It was after his departure (and mine) that the company decided to blow a wad it could ill afford on SAP. It is not just IT staff that is looking for resume enhancement. All users want SAP on their resumes so that they could get their next jobs. So long as US executive manegement believes in the trade press hype about ERP systems, IT folks stand no chance in resisting this inexorable tide. I saw company after company spend $80-$120 million on SAP implementation, money that could have been spent on product development. But if IT staff wants to go along in order to get along, they have no one to blame but themselves. At least I fought for what I believed in and demanded to be laid off when I could no longer defend my position alone. Look at sucky IBM... supporting Java on the AS/400 just to go along when they already have a loyal base of customers who couldn't care less about Java.

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        • #19
          Paved Paradise: Faces of the IT Recession

          ** This thread discusses the article: Paved Paradise: Faces of the IT Recession **
          Who do you think developed the CMM Level 5 certification? Why don't software developers in other countries use software developed in their county? I think Oracle opens shops in India because 'Hot-shot programmers' won't work for 5 dollar an hour. I also think that we should apply a import that on software and help desk support that far greater than India's, China or Japan's import tax and apply a national security tax to pay for a lack of software specialist in the USA cause by the degrading pay scales J Maldonado

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          • #20
            Paved Paradise: Faces of the IT Recession

            ** This thread discusses the article: Paved Paradise: Faces of the IT Recession **
            I luckily got a short-term contract in a company(after looking for almost a year!)and was to be working with an H1-B from China..Once I got to know him, we had a discussion about the job market, H1B etc.. It was then that he(totally unsolicited by me) told me that the reason H1b's are brought in is because "American programmers are lazy." And I think he really believed it..Now I am assuming that most likely he is not the only guy with that opinion but I do apolgize for any generalization. I suspect that when these guys come over from whatever country they are brain-washed to thinking that they are somehow better than us..that they either work harder or are smarter. They have this whole "load of bull" that someone has been feeding them..why I do not know unless its just some sort of veil for insecurity or something. Anyway...after a moment of reflection..I looked this guy in the eye and said.."You know what...American programmers are lots of things(look at the loons in this forum!) but one thing they are NOT is lazy. Some of the best programmers I have ever known were and still are Americans. I will also say some of the best programmers I have known were Indian, Jewish, Russian, Mexican, Armenian, South American, etc)but my point is that I believe no-one is better than anyone else. And thats whey we need a level playing field in terms of money in order to compete. Anyway...I found out that this guy came over here from Hong Kong when he lost his job which was "outsourced" to "Peking China." (It seems that there is some sort of pecking order in the world of outsourcing!) So then I told the guy..."So you came here to work for less cause someone took your job who would work for less...but tell me...where are we(Americans) supposed to go? We have no place to go. Then I just went back to work. What else could I do.

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            • #21
              Paved Paradise: Faces of the IT Recession

              ** This thread discusses the article: Paved Paradise: Faces of the IT Recession **
              ksolutions1, I resent being called a "loon". I like to think of myself as more of a Kookaburra. But, other than that, I think this is one of the best commentaries I've seen in here for a while. Just as you say, the individuals are not the enemy. And they have some misconceptions. But they are simply trying the best they can with the flawed information they have to make it in this world. Just as we are, with our own misconceptions and misinformation. Interesting to note the pecking order. That is exactly what is happening. We in the US came first in many markets. We were first in the auto industry. As much as we tried to tarrif and tax and badmouth foreign autos, they made it in anyway, because they learned how to make a car and made it SO cheap, that even with tarrifs, they could STILL compete. Every time another industry moves to a foriegn country, we have found another industry to excell in. Now comes the hard part:
              Because of the internet, there is no longer a need for collaborators to be in the same place,
              AND because we have catered to big business for so long, beleiving in the "trickle down economics",
              AND because we let the stock market drive companies to profits for this quarter instead of building a strong company,
              AND because, well, I could go on forever, we are now in a situation where the companies will HAVE to move to stay competitive. They are no longer tied to the US, they are tied to stock gains. They don't have to stay here in order to please their stockholders. They CAN'T stay here and continue to please their stockholders. The US is no longer guaranteed to have the next new industry in our own country. Finally, for the first time in a coupla hundred years, we will have to compete on equal footing. We also have a "load of bull" that we are toteing around, that WE are somehow better than everyone else. It has been true for a long time that we, as a country, have been doing things better than anyone else, but it's not a given that it will continue. Not because we are doing anything wrong, but because the rest of the world is slowly starting to do it right. Maybe I'll be lucky and my company will keep the IT department until after I retire, but if not, I gotta find another job, and most likely it'll be another industry. Not by choice. I'm not saying that we don't need to fight the current trend (Joe Pluta, I've been writing my letters!!, but I'm saying it's more of a stalling tactic that a permant solution. Joe has a good point: simply the volume of letters is a good idea. Other than that, IMHO, I think we need to point out security and quality issues as a reason to slow down and be cautious, rather than try to keep all the jobs here. If we are slow and cautious, things won't move offshore until it makes sense to do it and things will stay here that should (in a perfect world, that is). -dan "the loon" kookaburra

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              • #22
                Paved Paradise: Faces of the IT Recession

                ** This thread discusses the article: Paved Paradise: Faces of the IT Recession **
                The US is no longer guaranteed to have the next new industry in our own country. Finally, for the first time in a coupla hundred years, we will have to compete on equal footing.
                I read The Lexus and The Olive Tree: Understanding Globalization by Thomas Friedman of the NYT and found it to explain the issues pretty well. Overall, the author was optimistic that the US is positioned well for global trade. We've been doing the freedom thing for a while and have that pretty refined (individual rights, etc.), and the big business thing we do well, and we've figured out how to keep organized crime to a level lower than in other countries (heh - we elect 'em! :-)), and we've got great natural resources and natural ports on both sides of the hemisphere. And we have decent transparency, so people know that their investments aren't going to be confiscated. All of these things are conducive to better business environment. And we've got a huge head start on this "adjustment" thing. What happens when factories and software are almost completely automated? Then those who rely on it will need to make the "adjustments", and we'll be a long ways down the road. To whereever we're going... At least, that's what I keep telling myself. Of course, that doesn't mean that it will be easy, but... Brian

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                • #23
                  Paved Paradise: Faces of the IT Recession

                  ** This thread discusses the article: Paved Paradise: Faces of the IT Recession **
                  Don, and others.... First, thanks for the very strong response to the above article. As I mentioned in the article, these are "examples" of what has happened to various IT professionals since 2000. It is not an article about outsourcing, or "certification", or economics. It's an article about three individuals. I have received literally dozens of such testimonies about the state of IT over the past two years. The article is a case-study, indicating that something very significant has changed in the industry that is disrupting the lives, hopes, and aspirations of individuals who had really dedicated themselves to IT professionalism. These are not "whiz kid" dot.com Internet junkies who were riding the great employment demands of the late 1990s. These were serious and seasoned professionals -- at all levels of IT -- who were adding significant value to their organizations when events sent their lives and careers in radically different directions. This article is not about H1B visas. It is not about outsourcing. It's not about globalization. It's about the person sitting next to you (or the person who used to sit next to you). I'm writing this message from PartnerWorld in Las Vegas. PartnerWorld is where IBM orchestrates and synchronizes its messages with its 60,000 business partners. (5500 attendance this year) It's message replication time in Las Vegas. I came here to see if the impact that we're currently expriencing in IT is being reflected in the messages that IBM is delivering to its business partners. It's my hope -- now writing on deadline -- to respond to the request for "suggestions" in my next column. While I hesitate to offer my own opinions (still working on them) at this time, by next Monday I believe I'll have a good piece of information about what IBM believes is the way out of our dilemma in IT. Some of it is obvious, ("differentiate yourself in the market") and some of it has very serious implications to all of us. Sidebar: Went to the Microsoft reception last night(they're business partners with IBM too) to network and informally listen to their strategies for IT during this serious time of transition. Microsoft is overwhelmed with awe at what IBM is doing with its Business Partner organization. Some Microsoft managers expressed to me that they are having difficulty communicating the significance of IBM's power and strategy throughout their organization. It's definitely a culture thing for them. They're concerned about the way that the market has suddenly been transformed to an "outsourced" "On Demand" atmosphere. I hope to have some thoughts about this challenge -- as it relates to the world in which we work -- at a future point. Finally, thanks for your comments -- each of you that has taken the time in this forum. I sincerely appreciate reading each remark. Tom Stockwell Editor in Chief MC Press

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                  • #24
                    Paved Paradise: Faces of the IT Recession

                    ** This thread discusses the article: Paved Paradise: Faces of the IT Recession **
                    Why don't they make it mandatory for software companies to be certified. ISO 9000 was developed by the Europeans. They simply banded together and said that they won't buy products or services from companies without ISO 9000 certification. Companies all over the world took the time and effort needed to get that certification. US DoD has mandated that all embedded software (such as flight control software for helicopters) has to be produced bt departments certified at CMM Level 3 at a minimum. I know of an Indian company that provided the training needed so that the company (Sikorsky) could re-structure its processes and obtain certification. Why are there no American companies that can do this at a reasonable price? India, China, etc., consider ISO 9000 and CMM to be merely non-tariff barriers to entry into the marketplace. They are willing to invest the money needed to cross the barriers. If in the process, the customers get better software, the customer benefits. As to adding an import tax on software, how about an import tax on cars, TVs, VCRs, clothing, shoes, etc? But that would hit your pocketbook, wouldn't it. How many automobile assembly line workers, how many iron and steelworkers have been laid off? At that time, you blamed it on the "lazy unions" and their excessive bargaining power for the decline of the American Labor. Now the shoe happens to be on your foot and you want protectionism from outsourcing software development! It is all a question of whose ox is being gored. By the way, do you know why the last round of talks on WTO failed? Because the US demanded tariff-free entry of agricultural products into developing countries but was not willing to remove the billions of dollars in agricultural subsidies paid out to US farmers. The rest of the world doesn't have the money to subsidize their farmers to the same extent Europe and US subsidize their farmers and so they told the Americans and the Europeans what they could do with their agricultural surplus. I notice nobody responded about why Met Life and Prudential should be allowed to sell insurance in India as part of globalization.

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                    • #25
                      Paved Paradise: Faces of the IT Recession

                      ** This thread discusses the article: Paved Paradise: Faces of the IT Recession **
                      Namasthe Harimau, You have made some very good points, but as David and others have said, it isn't abour racism or protectionism. It's about keeping the US government out of the business of subsidising the loss of US jobs. If US employees can be replaced, the market will certainly replace them. This is not new: in the 80's it was common to see companies lay off older (more highly paid) workers for younger (cheaper) ones. But it is insanity for me to pay my own government to sponsor a program (H1-B) that specifically removes US labour and replaces it with non-US employees. The H1-B program was dreamt up by big business as a way to import cheaper workers. They needed an excuse to disguise this, and came up with a 'shortage of technical labour.' That was never true in the US: not in the 90's and certainly not now. Sadly, like many government programs, H1-B is riddled with businesses who violate the law. Even worse, there are many thousands of H1-B employees who are treated like slave labour by the body shops who hire them out. It is the body shop (big business) that makes the money, not the employee. The body shop dangles a US Green Card application in front of these folks and they have little choice but to do as they are asked because re-starting the green card processing (with a different employer) means they have to begin another 5 year wait. Once again just to make my point very plain: I think VERY highly of many of the Indian programmers I have worked with. Like any group of people there are some who excel and some who don't. I do not believe that 'country of origin' changes that one whit. I admire their drive to make a better life. Both of my parents are immigrants to the US, leaving 'worse' for 'better.' They came here permanently and have contributed to the culture, economy and spirit of the US, becoming citizens as soon as possible. I understand and applaud the drive to have a better life. I simply want the special H1-B program to end because it was established under false premises (NOT the fault of the H1-B holders!) and it is plain stupid for me to pay for my own government to eliminate my job. Best regards, --buck calabro

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                      • #26
                        Paved Paradise: Faces of the IT Recession

                        ** This thread discusses the article: Paved Paradise: Faces of the IT Recession **
                        Worth reading... http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/07/opinion/07FRIE.html and http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/07/in...ia/07INDI.html (You have to register, but it's free).

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