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IMHO: Freedom's Just Another Word for Nothing Left to Lose

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  • #16
    IMHO: Freedom's Just Another Word for Nothing Left to Lose

    ** This thread discusses the article: IMHO: Freedom's Just Another Word for Nothing Left to Lose **
    You know, it really cracks me up that there are certain subjects that whenever I say one non-fawning thing about them, people have a conniption. I say RPG is better for business logic than OO, the Java-worshippers start threatening lawsuits. I say native I/O is the fastest way to do single-record updates and the SQL-nutties send me fishheads wrapped in newspaper. I happen to love the concept of Open Source, otherwise I wouldn't waste my time trying to do it. And today there are places where Open Source absolutely makes sense. I think an Open Source mail server is probably a better choice for most SMBs. Open Source web servers have a lot of advantages over WebSphere. And in specific situations, the Linux desktop can probably provide an adequate replacement for Windows. But what bothers me is when the Open Source fanatics try to then extrapolate this to mean getting rid of, say, the iSeries. Or to use a language like Python. While there are probably times when business requirements make Open Source the correct decision, just be sure that "zero cost" is not one your decision points because "zero cost" it ain't. Joe P.S. You said: "I doubt that Janice Joplin was anti-materialism. She spent money freely and dressed herself in expensive clothes and jewelry. And, her Porsche was decked out in 60's-style psychedelic images." Yeah, I know. But don't go bursting my bubble. Janis truly is still one of my great musical idols. So don't go dissin' her . To paraphrase Swayze: NOBODY puts Janis in a corner...

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    • #17
      IMHO: Freedom's Just Another Word for Nothing Left to Lose

      ** This thread discusses the article: IMHO: Freedom's Just Another Word for Nothing Left to Lose **
      Thanks, Adrian. I think this really is the point of the whole exercise. You can indeed download and get running integrated Open Source packages. A lot of times they work right out of the box and do great things. But in general, Open Source packages tend to be somewhat insular and a bit inflexible. If you try to make them do things a little differently, or work and play with other Open Source projects, they start to get a bit finicky. And that finickiness translates to time... your time. And I don't know about you, but my time is very valuable and frankly if some Open Source program causes me to lose a weekend with my family, it's lost most of its appeal. Joe

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      • #18
        IMHO: Freedom's Just Another Word for Nothing Left to Lose

        ** This thread discusses the article: IMHO: Freedom's Just Another Word for Nothing Left to Lose **
        I can agree with that!

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        • #19
          IMHO: Freedom's Just Another Word for Nothing Left to Lose

          ** This thread discusses the article: IMHO: Freedom's Just Another Word for Nothing Left to Lose **
          Yes, there are more Windows servers than Linux servers, but that sounds more like a crutch than rationalization. You can set up a Linux box just as fast and at no cost (free?) other than using some older hardware that can't handle Windows anyway. If you insist on running open source only on a Windows platform, I would consider compiling from source to avoid your "level check" experiences. It's not a pretty solution, but might be less frustrating. Or, being more careful to match up your versions while looking for compiled objects for downloading. Open source is another tool in the bag and a very handy one, but ya gotta understand it properly to use it properly. Or get mad tryin'.

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          • #20
            IMHO: Freedom's Just Another Word for Nothing Left to Lose

            ** This thread discusses the article: IMHO: Freedom's Just Another Word for Nothing Left to Lose **
            I agree with you completely here Joe. For some IT people rarely get past the idea of having more than one "brand name" on their toolsets. Every tool kit I've ever seen has two screwdrivers in it: a flathead, or a phillips. Pick the best screwdriver and get the job done already!

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            • #21
              IMHO: Freedom's Just Another Word for Nothing Left to Lose

              ** This thread discusses the article: IMHO: Freedom's Just Another Word for Nothing Left to Lose **
              But I think maybe you're missing my point. If I'm a standard SMB running on an iSeries, chances are I've barely got Windows programing expertise, much less Linux skills. If I need to either A) add Linux to my list of mission-critical systems or B) build my Open Source applications from scratch from source, then chances are this is going to add a pretty significant resource drain. My point is simply that you CAN'T just pull something off the Internet and make it work... you have to pay for it in time, and to be honest, time is the thing most SMBs are lacking. It's not that we don't want to learn every new technology out there, we just don't have the time. Time is what I get in the premium I pay for an integrated solution like the iSeries. That's one of the main reasons why web interfaces still have't taken off on the box: There is no integrated web solution; everything takes time the people who need it most have the least time to spare. And that's another reason I am VERY cautious abou the newer technologies like Python or Ruby, or even PHP -- we don't know yet how much itr costs to actually integrate those into a production RPG environment. Joe

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              • #22
                IMHO: Freedom's Just Another Word for Nothing Left to Lose

                ** This thread discusses the article: IMHO: Freedom's Just Another Word for Nothing Left to Lose **
                Absolutely! That's why I have RPG and SQL in my toolkit, along with Java and JavaScript and CSS. The trick is to find something to replace display file DDS, and the jury is still out on that. It could be a page language like JSF, or it could be a script like PHP/Python/Ruby. It won't be RPG; RPG isn't suited for HTML formatting any more than Java is suited for business logic. Unfortunately I have to dig through all the hype to find out which one is best. Joe

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                • #23
                  IMHO: Freedom's Just Another Word for Nothing Left to Lose

                  ** This thread discusses the article: IMHO: Freedom's Just Another Word for Nothing Left to Lose **
                  You're too groovy Joe. Like wow, man, I know where your coming from, dig? :} Open source does have its place but it's definitely not easy to work with. And, Linux certainly isn't an easy install! Man, I really dug the tunes back then. Janis, Jimmy... Big Brother was not cool after Janis. She sung the blues like she had lived it... Tom. ps: sorry for the 60's lingo.

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                  • #24
                    IMHO: Freedom's Just Another Word for Nothing Left to Lose

                    ** This thread discusses the article: IMHO: Freedom's Just Another Word for Nothing Left to Lose **
                    Hi. Years ago in my IBM SE days, I installed System/34's and System/36's and eventually System/38's (have I dated myself or what...?). The System/34 and 36 came with a couple of black boxes full of 8 inch floppies. Plug in the system, hook up the console, pop the boxes of disks in the front, open up the side panel and flip a couple of switches, and press the IPL button. In a little while, take out the boxes, flip the switches back and press the IPL button. If need be, similar diskette/switch process to load the latest PTF's. In about an hour or so, you had a complete text-based batch and interactive system, with extensive telecommunications capabilties, compilers, code editors, etc. And it worked, really well, almost all the time. One day at a branch meeting where they announced yet another reorganization of the sales groups, I saw two mainframe SE's in the hall having a cigarette between sessions. Two experienced SE's, about as technical a pair as you can get. Looked down in the mouth. "What's going on?" I asked. Turned out they had just configured an UPGRADE to the operating system and all the associated software for a 43xx (smaller IBM mainframe of the day). What they were installing would have essentially had the function of a System/34 or 36 on a more powerful machine. Even with the IBM configurators, it took 3 days to work out all the dependencies in the IBM software (versions, PTF levels, etc.), and what you got in the end was a box full of card decks and/or tapes, which someone had to take into a closet for a few days or weeks and turn into a sysgen. The younger of the two SE's took another drag on his cigarette and said "You know, it wouldn't be so bad if you knew that when you installed it, it would work." The new world, whether it's Wintel or Linux or ... is that we have exactly the same problem today, but now it's all in that box under our desk or in our shoulder bag -- and we don't have the mainframe staff and experienced IBM SE's to help us cobble it all together and make it work. My experience, although far more narrow and limited than Joe's, is that the problems really aren't any different with Open Source or proprietary. It's only a question of magnitude, and the level of code at which you're required to work to integrate or solve problems.

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                    • #25
                      IMHO: Freedom's Just Another Word for Nothing Left to Lose

                      ** This thread discusses the article: IMHO: Freedom's Just Another Word for Nothing Left to Lose **
                      There is a cost to using opensource. But then, Programming is a commodity, and it is better to pay a programmer once to implement a free solution than to pay huge fees year on year. Also, Trac is a well respected package used by tens of thousands of projects - all of who rave about how great it is. If this guy had hired a person who has already climbed the learning curve, the implementation would have taken about a tenth of the time and effort that it took this loser. Also, it must be admitted that implementing OSS in a windows environment on the serverside is a bit mad - the guys who wrote the programs usually use Linux/unix/BSD and these tools are optimised for these environments. It is a credit to the OSS coders that they work on windows at all. How many native windows tools work on the *nix platform? < 5%! . Of course, with the web as a medium, the clients of all these programs work just fine with windows.

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                      • #26
                        IMHO: Freedom's Just Another Word for Nothing Left to Lose

                        ** This thread discusses the article: IMHO: Freedom's Just Another Word for Nothing Left to Lose **
                        Hee hee! I'm a loser? I love it! Just because I mention the fact that the latest versions of Python and Apache don't work together, the Open Source world lashes out and calls me a loser. Not sure that's the most professional approach here. (Especially since I said I like the software, AND I managed to get all the pieces working, which according to my readnig of the web quite a few people HAVEN'T been able to do.) You say "hire someone who has already climbed the learning curve," but that misses my point: Open Source is not free! Not only that, but what happens when I need to upgrade? I need to hire someone again. Anyway, if the Open Source response to criticism is to call people losers, then I consider that a pretty potent argument against using it in a professional environment. Joe

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                        • #27
                          IMHO: Freedom's Just Another Word for Nothing Left to Lose

                          ** This thread discusses the article: IMHO: Freedom's Just Another Word for Nothing Left to Lose **
                          Hey Joe... Don't generalize, please! If some slob comes from under a rock and calls you "looser", it doen't mean ALL Open Source adepts think the same. I have to agree with you. Open Source is seen (or promoted) as a magic bullet that will allow people do the same things that they can do with "closed" systems, but "free". Before some troll comes out to bite me, I work on a Linux box, with Open Source Software... I use windows only when I have no other choice... And yes, it can be a nightmare to get some stuff playing along with other stuff; though most of the time it's a pretty straightforward process.

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                          • #28
                            IMHO: Freedom's Just Another Word for Nothing Left to Lose

                            ** This thread discusses the article: IMHO: Freedom's Just Another Word for Nothing Left to Lose **
                            I keep trying to use Linux in a production environment, but I just don't have the time to learn it. However, I'm going to load VMWare real soon and that ought to give me the environment I need. At the same time, learning about Open Source via Windows is an enlightening venture: it shows that there is favoritism in Open Source just as there is anywhere, and in the Open world, Windows is DEFINITELY the second class citizen . Joe

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                            • #29
                              IMHO: Freedom's Just Another Word for Nothing Left to Lose

                              ** This thread discusses the article: IMHO: Freedom's Just Another Word for Nothing Left to Lose **
                              My sympathies to you Joe - seems like few understand the simple point you are trying to make... the world's far from perfect! I always like your musical analogies though. Reminds me very little of the time I interviewed for a programming slot at SSA (you were there at the time I recall). Two managerial types were required to assess inductees "fitness" for duty at SSA. The first one I talked to (can't remember his name, but he later became CFO or something) did not take kindly to my quoting an MIT study showing that musicians make excellent programmers (I was drumming in a bar band at the time) - thumbs down from him. The second guy was an actual programmer. I told him I knew how, when, and where to steal code - thumbs up from him and I got the job! The point being... nothing. The OSS, FSF, Linux crew is like a "Garage Band" - always quirky, generally innovative, loud, and inconsistent. The "Industry" players - MS, IBM, Sun - are staid, ubiquitous, just as loud, and consistent to the point of dullness. Both have their strengths, weaknesses, and usefulness. I take it you point to simply be that it is up to the individual to understand and weigh the costs of which path you chose. Freedom can also be another word for nothing left to Gain!

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