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** This thread discusses the article: Third-Party Software **
** This thread discusses the Content article: Third-Party Software0
** This thread discusses the Content article: Third-Party Software0
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Third-Party Software
** This thread discusses the article: Third-Party Software **
Ok, Bob, time to get back into the real world. First, consider how large (in terms of revenue) a company would be if it only had 20 users. A $3000 expenditure in such a company would probably be a BIG deal. Especially when you consider how many of those 20 users would be programmers (maybe 1?). You'd be asking the CFO (the most likely IT czar of such a shop) to spend $3000 on a tool for one person who cannot yet demonstrate how much more productive she's going to be using it. Right - like that's going to fly! I have to differ with your illustration of Systemworks, too. Again, if you were only buying Systemworks for the programmers (after all, your article was supposed to be talking about programmer tools), you'd have only spent $119 in my 1-programmer, 20-user shop. Much easier to justify. In our 400 user, 5 programmer shop, we use a PC software product that makes it easy to create scripts to run simple to extremely sophisticated Windows processes. The product costs $500 and we only need one copy, of which any of my 5 programmers can use (but which normally only 1 of us uses). We get great utility from the product and it's paid for itself many times over. Imagine what such a product would have cost if it were priced like typical AS/400 software on our iSeries 825 machine? When we originally purchased this product we were pretty sure it would do what we wanted - but we weren't completely sure. But, $500 was easier to risk than $3000. A $3000 expenditure in our shop would definitely get scrutinzed. Sometimes it's easier to slog through writing it yourself (and you tend to learn more) than it is to spend the time creating a cost justification. And, you fail to recognize the additional investment of time spent learning the tool. Yes, some are very single purpose and easy to learn. Others are much more flexible and exploiting that flexibility means you have to spend a fair amount of time learning it. Certainly, in the case of the $500 tool above, because it was really a language-like product, we spent a lot of time learning it. I wish programmers in general could adopt a personal tool-kit mentality and that programmer software products could be priced to support that, similar to car mechanics and their tools. In this vision, programmers would be able to purchase and add to their own personal arsenal of programming tools, which could be transported with THEM from job to job. It would certainly make it easier for people like me to risk purchasing and trying a tool without knowing that it would actually benefit me. Ok, you can return to fantasy world now. ==Kevin -
Third-Party Software
** This thread discusses the article: Third-Party Software **
What about ongoing costs like “maintenance” charges? Where do they fit in your scenario?Comment
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Third-Party Software
** This thread discusses the article: Third-Party Software **
Hi Kevin, Thanks for you comments. I understand what you're saying. I have to take issue with your suggestion that it is a fantasy about the price of Systemworks. It repairs Windows settings, scans hard drives fro failures, fixes known problems and include the antivirus software among other things. Why would you only install it on a programmer's PC and not the end-user's PCs? One other question, is that $500 PC software package bootlegged onto your 5 programmer's PCs or is it installed on one PC they they all share? It wasns't clear by your description. On the AS/400 something like my own products (just so I don't have to mention anyone else's) might cost $700 for any size AS/400 (Last year's pricing) or $995 for any size AS/400 (this year's pricing). Best case I may sell hundreds of copies over the 5-year lifespan. Your $500 PC product probably sold thousands of copies in the first few weeks. I know from talking with Microsoft's employees, they usually expect about 20 to 30 million units to be sold in the first 30 to 60 days of a product's lifecycle. If it sells "only" a few million they reevaluate their stratagy. Its supply and demand at this point. If you want to buy 20 million copies of RPG xTools, I'll sell them to you for $10 each. If you want to buy one, its gotta cost more than that.Comment
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** This thread discusses the article: Third-Party Software **
I think that's an interesting questions. Most PC products have maintenance costs of 25% to 80% They call it upgrades. You puchase MS Office for $495 and then when Office 2006 comes out you pay anywhere from $129 to $249 for the upgrade. Other PC products typically charge your 80% for maintenance, say it originally cost $100. A new version comes out and its $100 for new purchases and $80 for current owners to upgrade. With AS/400 software you rarely see more than 18% for software maintenance. And you typically get fixes and upgrade included in that fee. I know some shops don't upgrade and choose not to purchase maintenance. Then when they need/want a feature in a new version they end up having to either puchase new copy or pay all previous year's maintenance fees, plus interest. At first I thought this was wrong, but then when I recently had to get License plates for a car I had in storage for the last sesveral years, I was informed by the State of Illinois that I would need to pay for all prior years where I did not renew my license plate, plus a small "fine" in order to get current. The difference here, is only that I wasn't using the vehicle, whereas with software, your company is typically using it.Comment
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** This thread discusses the article: Third-Party Software **
Free Software? Paid by IBM? Tell me more. In fact, why isn't IBM informing us about this service? 1 tool for iSeries shops could be the start of something big. It could convince many shops that tools are worth the cost. And then they might buy more.Comment
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** This thread discusses the article: Third-Party Software **
I am intrigued by the idea suggested by a previous reader. Why not design iSeries software tools so that it can be puchased and used by 1 registered user? And price it so that an individual could afford it. Many iSeries users purchase their own books just because we are frustrated by having to justify every purchase to a boss. iSeries tools could be the same idea. It would open up a whole market segment for iSeries tool vendors.Comment
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** This thread discusses the article: Third-Party Software **
Bob said: "Most PC products have maintenance costs of 25% to 80% They call it upgrades." One must be assuming you're talking tongue-in-cheek here since upgrades and maintenance costs are very different things. Why? Maintenance costs are recurring costs that you pay on an annual basis to keep current. Upgrade costs are only paid periodically, if ever, if you decide to upgrade. For example, we pay about $12,000 per year to maintain Inovis' Trusted link, year in, year out. We've installed a newer release once in the last 4 years. However, my daughter is still running the Office 97 that came on her computer. She has yet to pay an upgrade cost for Office. Comparing maintenance and upgrade costs is silly. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.Comment
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** This thread discusses the article: Third-Party Software **
Chuck Ackerman wrote: > Bob said: "Most PC products have maintenance costs of 25% to 80% They > call it upgrades." > > One must be assuming you're talking tongue-in-cheek here since > upgrades and maintenance costs are very different things. Why? > Maintenance costs are recurring costs that you pay on an annual basis > to keep current. Upgrade costs are only paid periodically, if ever, > if you decide to upgrade. > > For example, we pay about $12,000 per year to maintain Inovis' > Trusted link, year in, year out. We've installed a newer release > once in the last 4 years. However, my daughter is still running the > Office 97 that came on her computer. She has yet to pay an upgrade > cost for Office. > > Comparing maintenance and upgrade costs is silly. No it's not. You're just using a comparison that is conveniently slanted towards your point of view. You don't have to pay maintenance on your Trusted Link to continue to use it, correct? Just as your daughter has decided she didn't need anything newer, you could have made the same decision. You both would have had to pay the authors if you decided an update/upgrade was important, so the comparison does work. BillComment
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** This thread discusses the article: Third-Party Software **
I think I know what you're trying to accomplish here. It's a good idea, and us technical folks need to keep trying. A key real-world problem is that you normally have technical people making recommendations to financial/management types. For instance, your idea that you can prorate the costs across your entire user base is flawed. Most tools in most shops I've seen, only have limited application. Therefore you are normally limited to prorating your costs across the portion of the user base that will actually benefit. This is often just one application, and often just one portion of that one application. Here's a real world example. Several years ago I identified that a particular tool would help my shop. We only needed it for a small subset of our application, but it would greatly assist with that subset. Otherwise it was a completely manual and highly inefficient job. My supervisor's were, "Show me the money!" So I did. I came up with a cost justification that showed the tool was incredibly cost efficient compared to the equivalent manual alternative. Unfortunately, there was also an alternative to do nothing, or to do a slap-dash manual job of things. So the tool never got purchased. Sure you say, it's just a matter of priorities. If that were true, why does there seem to be a consistent pattern at work? The priorities of the technical staff ought to get some attention at least some of the time, right? Otherwise, it's not really an issue of organizational priorities at all. The organization is not just a handful of supervisory people. So we keep trying, but sometimes you have to realize that the situation just isn't amenable to input.Comment
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** This thread discusses the article: Third-Party Software **
Bill, You are right, both upgrade and maintenance costs are optional. But just try upgrading an AS/400 software package, such as Trusted Link, WITHOUT being on maintenance. It's next to impossible unless you pay all back maintenance fees. Also the article compared PCs to an iSeries. That's simply silly also. Buying the iSeries doesn't eliminate the PCs and it also doesn't eliminate most PC utility software. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Bill"Comment
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** This thread discusses the article: Third-Party Software **
At the first shop I worked at we had an abundance of tools (Hawkeye, SEQUEL, DBU, etc…). I was new to the AS/400 and I learned how to use the 3rd party “tools”. When I went to my second company they didn’t have any “tools”. I had lost my crutch and felt like I started all over again. I became a contractor after that. I walked into many different shops with an array of different “tools”. I learned to depend on base OS/400. I learned the base system OPNQRYF, SQL, QRY, etc… I have learned many tips from TAATOOLS. I had my own SRC de-bug (from CISC), De-bug from journal templates, Pgm-file where used, automated SPLF routing to multiple systems, DRDA, and other utilities. Yes I had a learning curve to do these, but I have been able to use that knowledge and understanding of the system in our everyday life. That’s not to say that I learned what could be done, by seeing the functionality of the 3rd party’s software. I have also been able to carry my “tools” library and source to each company I go to. The company I currently work for, has IT report to an accountant, try to sell these AS/400 utilities to him. Another issue I face with our current software package, is they are using proprietary companies/utilities. They have partnered with companies like Media View, DAP, Designer Builder, etc… They seem to ignore IBM’s direction (Web facing/ WebSphere, and yes CGI-DEV2) which creates the problem of hiring a “typical” programmer off the street. I will also need training in these products, which pulls me farther away from “base” system knowledge. I don’t want to tie my career to a vendor/application.Comment
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** This thread discusses the article: Third-Party Software **
I understand about the NIH syndrome. Sort of like someone coming up with their own CGILIB versus the popular CGIDEV2.Comment
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** This thread discusses the article: Third-Party Software **
Chuck Ackerman wrote: Comparing maintenance and upgrade costs is silly While I wouldn't characterize the comparison as "silly", I do agree with your point. IMO, Upgrades (for the most part) are some of the biggest ripoffs going. When most people only use 15% of a PC product, it makes no sense to upgrade unless they have to exchange documents which cannot be opened by the older product. This built in planned obsolescence is no accident. Even on the 400, release upgrades usually occur only when support on the older release is about to expire. Maintenance on the other hand can be a life saver. The rare times that I have to use the IBM support hotline, it is because there is an important concern. I suffer the frustrations of the gatekeepers, but always find that the end result is worthwhile. I don't recommend desktop support for small shops because of cost effectiveness, but at large shops particularly those with multi-platform development issues, support can mean the difference between success and failure. DaveComment
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** This thread discusses the article: Third-Party Software **
Chuck wrote: Maintenance costs are recurring costs that you pay on an annual basis to keep current. Upgrade costs are only paid periodically, if ever, if you decide to upgrade. Your argument is major league flawed, Chuck. Some of the largest cost components, trendsetters Microsoft and Oracle, have an upgrade/ "optional" purchase pricing choice that ensures that you essentially buy your maintenance as upgrades, whether you upgrade or not. One of the greatest gifts to us programmers are these twins of power megamerging into entities that will surely be avoided and replaced by other software. It'd be nice if it ran on the AS/400, but IBM would have to do something they refuse to do, provide a native GUI interface for an operating system and database they don't want to talk about, OS/400 and DB2/400. Where "they" in IBM are instead Linux and Websphere advocates, yet they cannot demonstrate equivalent power as what they have abandoned. A good example, one could give any number of them, is the FBI case file system which runs on mainframe 3270 code. They have tossed $200 million down the black hole trying to replace it with Oracle and Java and doomed to perpetually fail in ever again creating what we have wrought with COBOL and RPG native I/O programs and 3270/5250 screens. It'd be funny, but it's our tax money these clueless huge consultants and agencies are flushing down the hole. rdComment
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