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The iSeries: The Once and Future King

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  • #76
    The iSeries: The Once and Future King

    So, one of your primary resellers also sells a WebSphere Express product, and you're on here slamming WebSphere Express. You're a hell of a partner, I must say. Joe

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    • #77
      The iSeries: The Once and Future King

      Ah, but if you had been listening that seems to scale just fine, blowing a hole in your scaling theory.

      Scaling fine does not mean it scales as well. Just about any technology applied properly should be scaleable. The important question is: "What scales better for my particular need?" WebSphere scales better at the high end than CGI. CGI scales better at the low-end (but this could be counteracted by running Tomcat as the servlet container).

      At the same time, there is also the issue of programmer productivity (both up-front development and maintenance). If you have a well-performing code generator (such as WebSmart) or runtime application generator, you're going to run rings around any hand-coded solution. This applies regardless of the underlying technology.

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      • #78
        The iSeries: The Once and Future King

        I believe I also apologized for my inaccuracy regarding the model 270 running WebSphere - although I stand by my point that WebSphere Express is a far cry from WebSphere full blown - which you never addressed.

        I would say that it doesn't need to be addressed. If you have an application where both WebSphere and CGI are considered viable implementation options, then the lack of an EJB Container in WebSphere Express wouldn't be an issue.

        Of course, in version 6, the difference between WAS Express and WAS Base is licensing costs/constraints, so the discussion will become moot as more shops lean towards that version.

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        • #79
          The iSeries: The Once and Future King

          Very catchy title. I enjoyed the article from an entertainment standpoint, and it's always refreshing to read a passionate article about the iSeries. On the other hand, your article is also filled with some somewhat misleading statements that alienate people that use the left side of their brain as much as their right. If the point of your article was to galvanize RPG developers then I say mission accomplished. I guess I like to think people are smart enough to get some facts along with the vitriol, that's all. I am glad you managed to use the disclaimer that one size fits all is wrong. I like to think the iSeries is living proof of that. Is it true that some vendors have bet their business on migrating from RPG to Java? Maybe, although there's none that I'm aware of. Does IBM's announcement significantly change their business model? Not really. Has IBM 'kicked the migration tools out of the temple' as you suggest? No. Do you really think any sane person feels that 'Java is the answer to everything'? Kind of like saying RPG is the answer to everything, isn't it? I frankly don't understand why you attack the notion of platform independence. It's like attacking color TV. It's kind of already happended and is the main factor driving commoditization in the IT world. I'm not saying you have to like it- I'm just pointing out that it's a fact of life. So I will agree with your point about sowing dissent for political gain- we're all engaged in that to some degree if we have product-driven interests in this market place. Perhaps that explains your interest in discussing the benefits of using JSP, for example. You know, I see your name in the press quite a bit and read your commentary about other product approaches, yet I have never seen or heard from a single site that owns a product of yours in over 15 years of doing this. Normally I wouldn't engage in this kind of thing, but demonizing other technologies while pumping your own philosophy doesn't strike me as being very PC either. Chris Wilson

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          • #80
            The iSeries: The Once and Future King

            I am currently researching scaleability of SQL Server Farms against an i-Series. Can you point me to some sources of 'mountains of evidence'? Thank you

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            • #81
              The iSeries: The Once and Future King

              Microsoft has demonstrated enterprise level transaction throughput, and they keep releasing new versions, so Microsoft has left any such mountains in the dust. On the other hand, I have worked with several large corporations running their business on the AS/400 with DB2/400 and RPG. One stock transaction file contained over a billion records. OS/400 is the kind of computing architecture that could handle the government's largest failures at the FBI and IRS, but OS/400 with RPG is Cinderella and Websphere with SQL is the ugly step-sister. If only IBM knew where the glass slipper fits. rd

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              • #82
                The iSeries: The Once and Future King

                I am currently researching scaleability of SQL Server Farms against an i-Series. Can you point me to some sources of 'mountains of evidence'? Thank you

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                • #83
                  The iSeries: The Once and Future King

                  your first post took. It's still there. rd

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                  • #84
                    The iSeries: The Once and Future King

                    Now, all this having been said about JSP vs. CGI, the end result is still the lowly web page which we have so many advocates for, leaving our AS/400/iseries/i5 at the low end of all computer interfaces. Nowhere else do people work with web pages as the apparent primary workspace. Nor do we ourselves do any fundamental work in them. Yet we somehow delude ourselves into believing IBM and their Websphere web page server is an interface people will buy the i5 for. That is until it is so late no one will even care what we think, if that hasn't already happened. Instead, with one move, the interface for the i5 could be the most advanced interface of all computers and, in domino fashion, OS/400 recognized as the only object based OS in the world behind this most advanced interface, and DB2/400 and record level I/O understood to be behind the business transaction processing greatness of many of the most successful corporations in the world. If IBM put something like this on the i5 as our standard interface, with an EXFMT tie in to generate basic screen components by default, I wouldn't even mind if they required Websphere to do it. Just do it before it's midnight. http://www.canoo.com/ulc/ rd

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                    • #85
                      The iSeries: The Once and Future King

                      This is a great article. For years IBM characterized the iSeries as another commodity for deploying Java applications. It appears that strategy simply lead to more migration of more applications to Windows and Linux servers. Joe has clarified and amplified the changes at IBM, which emphasize iSeries distinctiveness, and will definitely expand the iSeries user base. Several years ago I read whitepapers from Sun and IBM which characterized CGI as a poorer performing, less scalable architecture than Servlets. Perhaps naively, I believe it, even though no benchmarks were offered to support the claims. Since then, I've run a number of benchmarks that refute it. iSeries CGI uses fewer CPU cycles, and offers better scalability. The most accurate way to measure performance and scalability is through a client-based stress test tool. Raw throughput is one measurement, but perhaps even more significant is that when a server is hit with multiple simultaneous requests, there shouldn't be wide variations in response times between the first hit and the last hit. For both measurements, iSeries CGI performs and scales significantly better than Servlets, except in tests involving NO database access, and trivial page sizes. That's not to say that iSeries CGI doesn't have other problems. If a CGI job is already engaged handling a request, when a new request arrives, the requested program will be launched in a separate job, eventually leading to a state where every program is active in every job. It's kind of like a built-in memory leak. An error in a CGI program will eventually destabilize the HTTP Server by tying up all CGI support jobs. The only way to release and reset resources is to periodically shut down and restart the HTTP server. Actually, distinctions between CGI and Servlets seem to be less and less relevant as time passes. The great message of the iSeries, is that both interfaces are supported, and each will be suitable for different types of programmers, and framework and tool developers. Nathan.

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                      • #86
                        The iSeries: The Once and Future King

                        We have hundreds of CGI programs in production that seem to work just fine. I'd like to know what, in the real world, what I'm not doing that I could have done in Java.
                        That sounds like a lot of programs. Are you generating a separate program for each "page" of each application? Even so, that still sounds like a lot of programs. Would it be accurate to say that you're generating new programs based on models, thus adapting the same models to different subjects [i.e. different database tables]? If you generate one program per page, I might suggest that you could reduce the size and resource requirements of your applications by following a consolidated design pattern. Similarly, if many of your programs are based on models [templates], how adaptable are the models? The following screen shots may be helpful: http://www.relational-data.com/ascen...hdr_lines.html The illustration may simply show that it's possible to offer features to users that may not be supported in your models. The number of rows in an SQL result set. The number of pages. An option to change the number of rows displayed [for larger resolution monitors]. More ways to filter records. An option to download an SQL result set to an XML or other formatted text stream. An option to position to a row based on a key value, where the "position to" prompt adapts to the SQL order by clause. Ability to select multiple rows in a result set for view, change, delete, copy, and other actions. Tabbed pages. Popup panels. Just some ideas. Nathan.

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                        • #87
                          The iSeries: The Once and Future King

                          Nathan asked: "That sounds like a lot of programs. Are you generating a separate program for each "page" of each application?" No. A typical program might be a master file update. The entire program will have all of the pages and functions necessary to update the master file. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

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                          • #88
                            The iSeries: The Once and Future King

                            CW: On the other hand, your article is also filled with some somewhat misleading statements that alienate people that use the left side of their brain as much as their right. Well, up until this point, I'm pretty comfortable with the statements I've made. Evidently you dispute them as emotional guff, so I assume you have evidence otherwise. CW: Is it true that some vendors have bet their business on migrating from RPG to Java? Maybe, although there's none that I'm aware of. Okay, that's not proof. But I'm sure you have proof of my egregious emotionalism elsewhere. CW: Does IBM's announcement significantly change their business model? Not really. Interesting opinion, but hardly proof of anything. CW: Has IBM 'kicked the migration tools out of the temple' as you suggest? No. The only "factual" statement, and it's plain wrong. IBM has removed all conversion tools from its iSeries Developer's Roadmap, and the entire management staff of the iSeries product line, from Shearer on down, has gone publicly on record to say that they do not believe i9n migration from the platform as an answer. CW: Do you really think any sane person feels that 'Java is the answer to everything'? Sane? No. Plenty of crazy folks out there, though. CW: Kind of like saying RPG is the answer to everything, isn't it? Yup. Or RPG-CGI, for that matter. You might want to take this discussion up with Duncan Kenzie. Duncan, meet Chris. Chris, meet Duncan. CW: I frankly don't understand why you attack the notion of platform independence. It's like attacking color TV. It's kind of already happended and is the main factor driving commoditization in the IT world. I'm not saying you have to like it- I'm just pointing out that it's a fact of life. I disagree completely. In fact, Bill Gates has become the richest man in the world pursuing exactly the opposite goal, and instead doing everything possible to lock people into his platform. The only people selling platform independence are ISVs who would rather sell the same code twice than maintain two versions (the really unscrupulous ones do it even though it both versions perform like crap). CW: Perhaps that explains your interest in discussing the benefits of using JSP, for example. The fact that I use the same technology I promote would seem to be a case of me "eating my own dog food", as it were. Rather than selling somebody whatever they will buy, I have a firm conviction as to what the best technology is, and that's the technology I use myself. You somehow manage to say this is bad. You have an odd view of things, Chris. CW: You know, I see your name in the press quite a bit and read your commentary about other product approaches, yet I have never seen or heard from a single site that owns a product of yours in over 15 years of doing this. Interesting. You've never heard of any of these companies? CW: Normally I wouldn't engage in this kind of thing, Yeah, you're not very good at it. You probably feel pretty silly that I have over 40 clients. I guess it's too much research to go to my corporate home page and click on the word "clients", huh? CW: but demonizing other technologies while pumping your own philosophy doesn't strike me as being very PC either. Yo, dude. It's not MY philosophy. JSP Model II is Sun's philosophy, as well as the strategy recommended by a ton of people in the field. Use Google, do some reading. Regardless of how many misstatements and mischaracterizations you might make, it's still the best technology. How about addressing the facts rather than attacking my motives. Joe

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                            • #89
                              The iSeries: The Once and Future King

                              Where do you find the time supporting all those clients of yours? You said that 'I'm plain wrong' and that 'IBM has removed all conversion tools from its iSeries Developer's Roadmap'. Wrong, dude. Go look at http://www-1.ibm.com/servers/enable/...grate_biz.html Oops. There's RIO. Sorry Joe. You don't need to introduce me to Duncan. He's a smart guy who thinks his tool is the best solution for iSeries developers and who could possibly blame him for that? I respect his opinion and agree that products like his are appropriate for many segments of our market. If you come back and tell me that many of those 30+ customers are using your PCS tool than you have my apology, but my guess is that most are customers of your PDF conversion tool. You needn't answer- this is kind of like playing liar's poker with a guy who has a 3,6 in his hand.

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                              • #90
                                The iSeries: The Once and Future King

                                Joe said: "Or RPG-CGI, for that matter. You might want to take this discussion up with Duncan Kenzie. Duncan, meet Chris. Chris, meet Duncan." You are a really odd duck, Joe. Duncan never said RPG-CGI was the only answer. In fact, his product will generate RPG OR Java. He did say that RPG-CGI was the equal of Java, though. However, because he DIDN'T say Java was the one and only solution you continue to pout and jab at him. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

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