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Anatomy of an Open-Source Project

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  • #16
    Anatomy of an Open-Source Project

    ** This thread discusses the article: Anatomy of an Open-Source Project **
    The selection lists with 5250, cursor sensitive subfile windows, are much more powerful than drop down lists which in lieu of AJAX type programming must all be sent down with the web page to display in the drop down window. But similarities of the interface are the least of it. It is the "stream" processing which in fact is not comparable at all. 5250 is sockets communications to a resident session. HTML is, well, it's a kludge pushed into doing things it was never designed to do. That's why the security nightmare known as ActiveX was used and required Windows and Internet Explorer for a so called access from anywhere solution known as the browser. Now Flash is used instead most of the time. Flash is a native program running in a browser. SAP is going to it for an interface, for example. So anyone doing less is just behind the eight ball to start with. AJAX just compounds that kludge infinitely. Does anyone have any idea what must take place on the server every time an AJAX request is sent? A similar situation would exist if 5250 went to keystroke processing. With careful design AJAX requests could occur no more frequently than a page refresh and bring down less data, and the same could be said of 5250 keystroke processing. But these type of processing requests tend to generate lots of request traffic to the server for most purposes. So no, unfortunately for web browser advocates, there is no comparison to the stream processing of 5250 and HTML, and 5250 has more powerful interface processing than a web browser. Obviously we could use better font, color, and layout control, but even there the same thing can be said about a browser, which was never intended to have the layout control asked of it. It's kludge upon kludge to have what has been done with it, remarkable as it is. rd

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    • #17
      Anatomy of an Open-Source Project

      ** This thread discusses the article: Anatomy of an Open-Source Project **
      Ralph Daugherty wrote: Obviously we could use better font, color, and layout control, but even there the same thing can be said about a browser, which was never intended to have the layout control asked of it. It's kludge upon kludge to have what has been done with it, remarkable as it is. IMHO - Work on the 5250 interface was left incomplete. There is much more that could be done, even within the existing confines. IBM has pretty much chosen to leave it alone, and that, is a pity. Browser interface programming has diversified to the point of incomprehensibility. Ads for web developers insist on all of the following: HTML, DHTML, XHTML, ASP, JSP, VB script, Javascript, PHP, AJAX, XML, CSS, and the litany goes on and on and on. A single shop typically has purchased multiple programs each with its own technology to achieve a similar goal through the browser. Keeping up is like chasing a moving target. As soon as you think you have mastered one method, either the method changes, or is outdated by the latest programming flavor of the month. Dave

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      • #18
        Anatomy of an Open-Source Project

        ** This thread discusses the article: Anatomy of an Open-Source Project **
        Fundamentally though, both 5250 and Web interfaces are form processors that was my point. When you compare the 3 environments under discussion, 5250 and Web interfaces are so much more identical than the thick client environments. There is no question Windows and Linux (eg. Qt) offer a superior event driven programming environment but at a cost. Now 5250 is a document handler that has indeed been shoe-horned to a form processing role. But it is ubiquitous. It is the lingual franca of the world at the moment. Most devices have a host environment. Computers (mainframe, midrange, servers, workstations, laptops), mobile devices, game consoles and even appliance equipment. 5250 streams can be hosted only on certain computing platforms and then it requires it's own special host environment and controls to operate. On the thick client implementation it also requires numerous TCP ports to operate. Whilst this can be seen as an asset is it actually a hinderance to a lot of operation managers who are trying to tie down security. A problem with HTML use is the implementation. I think David refers to this in a following post. It's really a cross between the expediency of using a commonly accessible platform (web servers, browsers), the desire of the programming rituous with a bent of layer separation at all costs, and the need for scalability on the smallest possible piece of hardware to a do a task (a big reason for Stateless programming). Ajax and the like are hacks but they are filling gaps in usability. As usual, overuse kills the bird but there are many good implementations. From and ISV point of view, 5250 is a dead event and thick windows client apps are fast heading that way. You have a proliferation of middle tier app servers popping up everywhere (Citrix, Sun One, et al). They are clearly the stepping stones to what a lot of IS are chasing for the future. That is why I wonder at the wisdom (from the original thread topic) of pushing Open Source as an alternative when, with any qualitative analysis, it is merely acting as a free replacement of existing functionality. And worse still, functionality that may not be required too far in the future. At no point is there any real innovation - it is more about copying existing ideas or covering existing ground.

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        • #19
          Anatomy of an Open-Source Project

          ** This thread discusses the article: Anatomy of an Open-Source Project **
          You sum up the general consensus well. I could quibble, but I won't argue with any of it. I do agree with Thomas' point of innovation with open source, however. Even with commercial software the innovations are incremental these days. There will be another plateau reached one day, with combinatorial interaction of software enabled through today's work of open source interface architectures, but critical mass for that has not been reached yet. I took a look at Oracle's JD Edwards white paper on the newly released A9.1. I note that they added function key support to the web interface, and optional Java replacements for web pages, both at users requests. That the users are iseries veteran users, and know what they want, is one factor in that. They would not have asked if they found web pages a replacement for 5250. SAP would not be using Flash if they found web pages a replacement for Unix screens. Microsoft would not be inserting Windows into the browser with ActiveX and WebForms if users found web pages a replacement for Windows screens. IBM would not have developed an Eclipse client for Notes if users found web pages a replacement for Notes. All I want is a standard interface for the iseries that is as good as what other vendors are smart enough to provide their customers. Every app having its own crazy quilt web secret sauce going, with IBM trying to lasso everyone into corralling them through a Websphere tollgate, is not viable. Until then, I guess we'll see if stateless web architectures can compete with 5250 resident sessions. We could do more. Oracle did with JDE World. That I find the height of irony. rd

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          • #20
            Anatomy of an Open-Source Project

            ** This thread discusses the article: Anatomy of an Open-Source Project **
            It is certainly interesting times. What we do need is a Web programming environment that is not incremental but tangential; something like when VB3 was introduced in the micro world. Such a product will be a turning point. Of course, it may never happen.

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            • #21
              Anatomy of an Open-Source Project

              ** This thread discusses the article: Anatomy of an Open-Source Project **
              I recently ran across a product called Morfik (www.morfik.com). The project is young but shows a lot of promise. Adobe's Flex and OpenLaslo are also projects we've been looking at as a possible way to bring rich GUIs to our Internet users. As stated before, the current state of affairs for web application programming is way too complex. To build functional, professional web applications today you have to know HTML, DHTML, XHTML, CSS, Javascript, XML, PHP,JSP, ASP, PHP, toolkit flavor of the day, template engines, frameworks, etc, etc, etc.

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              • #22
                Anatomy of an Open-Source Project

                ** This thread discusses the article: Anatomy of an Open-Source Project **
                I would think this group which generally advocates a web browser interface would ask themselves why IBM created a new open source Eclipse desktop client for Notes if I understand the marketing announcement correctly. Apparently I didn't understand the announcement correctly. IBM talked of open source Eclipse and an open client based on Eclipse, but not an open source client as I posted. What makes IBM's desktop client open when it's not open source, and what makes other desktop clients without source code closed in comparison to IBM's? IBM says one avoids lockin with their open client. How, if it's not open source? What relevance does Eclipse being open source have to an IBM product based on it that isn't? I don't know, probably about as much relevance as me thinking it could be applied as the iseries interface. rd

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