Forum Decorum

[MCWebsite.Staff]

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[David Abramowitz]

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It's actually a shame that the need arose for this article to be written. Dave

[Guest.Visitor]

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Joe, Good article. Some heated discussions do tend to get personal. I've noticed it in places where someone has chosen a technology or methodology and someone else questions its use or completely bashes it. I can't count the number of posts that take personal shots at people for using or not using something. Such as: you're an idiot if... you don't use free format; do use indicators; aren't learning or using (take your pick) Java, WSDC, .Net, etc. There are posts making snide remarks if a question has been asked by someone who is "foreign" or seems to be new to the platform. You are correct when you point out the incivility in a lot of answers to what some of us regard as simple or dumb questions. Remember, we were all new to the platform at some point and had lots of questions. I know I drove my IBM systems engineer crazy in the early days with questions. There is only one place that a stricter code should not be enforced is in "shooting the breeze". That should be less formal. Personal attacks and such are not welcome anywhere. A few things I'd like to see more of: 1. Use mixed case. It's easier to read. That's why we use it in code. 2. Check spelling. 3. If you asked a question, come back to the thread an let us know if and how the ideas posted helped you. Or, if you found a better method, let us know that, too. 4. If you're asking questions, please state your O/S release, put in as much detail as possible, put the question in context telling us what the application is and how it is used. It can be hard to answer a question when you don't know any context. And, there are multiple answers to many questions depending on the context. Tom

[pete@valadd.com]

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Joe, I agree with what you say but most of the problem is that many forums were originally designed to post a question and get an answer. Usually, that is very straight forward. However, when the posts are more discussion based, such as topics involving product naming and marketing or the relative merits of one vendor's products vs another, then an electronic forum is a very poor medium, primarily because once we move out of the area of facts and into opinion, then body language, facial expressions, hand gestures, voice inflection and the like become hugely important. Using an electronic forum to discuss opinion is like kissing through a screen door: most the essentials are missing. As a society we have become increasingly interpersonally impoverished because of electronic communication. We use it in place of true, personal dialog. I am not sure that we'll ever be able to overcome the impersonal nature of electronic communication but what you suggest will help. Perhaps when quality real-time, screen to screen video is possible, this problem will go away. Until then, staying away from opinion and using fact focused responses will certainly help. Pete

[scatterload]

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never saw a more heated discussion than the one many years ago when (i forget who) a poster jumped all over joe pluta for a difference in opinion. made me realise that not all battles are on a declared battlefield. -lost

[H.Boldt]

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Joe: One of the problems with on-line communications via fora (such as this) is conflicting personalities. As you know, you and I have had some notable public disagreements, some of which resulted in you calling for my resignation from IBM. Three years ago, part of your wish was granted and I got shuffled away from RPG off to a different project that needed staffing. And more recently, your call was made complete when I got fed up with the pressures of working on that new project and left the company completely! But that's besides my point. Believe it or not, but I've even had heated discussions with people on a forum dedicated to model railroading! The personality conflict with one other particular person got so bad I decided to take an extended break from that forum. When I returned about a year later, I found no sign of that person. The forum owner told me that during my absence he took a hissy fit, deleted all of his postings, and left to concentrate on his own model railroading forum! The forum owner was not at all upset to see that guy's backside. I'm not sure if I have any specific advice on this particular aspect of the problem. You can't always stay away from potentially contentious discussions if you truly believe in your point of view. But if you do respond, best to stay away from questionable tactics, such as the ad hominem attack or the strawman argument, even if the other uses such tactics. If you have facts on your side, present them objectively. If your argument is based on personal experience or opinion, make sure that's made known too. If there are points of agreement, these should be mentioned. Sometimes disagreement is only over subtle nuances and can get overblown as arguments are misinterpreted or stated in a less than ideal form. As for our "discussions", Joe, I think on the whole, you and I have agreed on more things than not. Disagreement is always bound to occur, and in general is what makes life interesting. But as a rule, we all have to recognize the slippery path disagreement can potentially take us, and take appropriate action to prevent flame wars, or worse. Cheers! Hans

[kitvb1]

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Can I at least call my own questions dumb? Having been out of the RPG world for a number of years, and coming back about 2 years ago, I sometimes feel that the world has passed me by. These forums and articles have been a great help but I agree with David Abramowitz (see first comment). In the past few months I have seen some really uncalled for attacks on some of the McPress contributors. Regards Kit

[scatterload]

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kit: was away from the as/400 for 3 1/2 years after serving in OIF for 14 months and then spending 18 months going through surgery and rehab after being shot and hit with bomb/rocket schrapnel. got back in and felt "dumb" because of all of the changes. the saving grace was that i used /free for a year before my call up and most did not, so they thought (quite in error) that i was a genius heck, i look at things from just a few months ago and can paraphrase the kid in 6th sense "i see dumb coding..." as for the uncalled for attacks, they were prevalent with a few individuals that i am happy to not see contributing much in the past weeks. i love freedom of speech but the rhetoric needs to be smacked down sometimes. -lost

[J.Klebanoff]

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Hi Joe, you make an excellent point. At the recent COMMON in Anaheim I visited a YIPs (Young iSeries Professionals) meeting to talk with some of them for background on a potential MC Press article. One of the complaints I heard was that the various AS/400 aka iSeries aka System i forums out there (not specifically MC Press) tend to be dominated by old-timers who ridicule the YIPs mercilessly whenever one of them asks a question that the old-timers deem, in their infinite wisdom, to be naive. That, the YIPs told me, was turning them off the forums. They wanted to find alternate sources of information. It would be a terrible shame if those fresh voices and fresh ideas are chased away from the forums.

[Guest.Visitor]

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Joel, It's good to see your "wit" us again. I laughed uncontrollably when I read YIPs. The term is used in golf to describe an uncontrollable hand movement that interferes with one's putting stroke. It happens as golfers age, so, it's not supposed to affect young people. Whenever I miss an easy putt, I blame it on the YIPs. Now, I can blame a program that doesn't work on the YIPs, too. Other acronyms can be used. A senior iSeries professional is a SIP. A dual iSeries professional (one who works in two languages) is a DIP. TIP could refer to a teenage iSeries professional. Good TIPs are very hard to find. They are a rare species and they transform into YIPs in a year or so after creation. Thanks for putting a smile on my face again, Joel. Tom

[J.Klebanoff]

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Hi Tom, I'm glad I could put a smile on your face, but don't thank me. Thank COMMON. I wasn't trying to be funny. That's what COMMON calls the group. However, I like your SIPs, DIPs and TIPs. How about: HIP - Heavy iSeries Profesionals LIP - Loudmouthed iSeries Professionals RIP - Rambunctious iSeries Professionals VIP - Vacuous iSeries Professionals ZIP - Zombie iSeries Profesionals

[Guest.Visitor]

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You gotta be kidding?!? Common came up with that? Somebody's been drinking some funny lemonade there. I've felt like a ZIP a few times during late night installs and troubleshooting. Thanks Joel, Tom

[J.Pluta]

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I agree, David. But unfortunately some people are emboldened by the anonymous or at least consequence-free nature of the web. For example, there's at least one individual who takes advantage of a bug in the forum software to write really scathing anonymous remarks. And it's a fine line. The best moderated forums are David Gibbs' email lists, and even those get a little out of hand from time to time (not that I would have anything to do with that ). These forums have been largely unmoderated and it has worked reasonably well until recently. It's only in the last year or two that I've really seen a spike in uncivil and/or purposely hurtful behavior that prompted this article. Joe

[J.Pluta]

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I'm just getting caught up after having been away for the week and I'm trying to follow up on the messages, particularly in this thread, and I wanted to really emphasize someof your points. First, snide comments or attacks on someone's intelligence or knowledge are really not acceptable anywhere. Unfortuantely, we've become inured to it. A good percentage of what passes for "comedy" in America (e.g. The Daily Show) is really personal attacks thinly disguised as satire. And even there the line is blurry; South Park contains some really brilliant satire, but then steps (nay, LEAPS) over the line (with mixed results). But there is absolutely no place for that sort of stuff here in the forums. I really mean it when I sya that phrases like RTFM should be banned; there is nothing positive about telling someone that you think they're an idiot, and using an acronynm to boot because they're not worth the time to actually type a real sentence. Policies against personal attacks should be strictly adhered to throughout the forums, and while Shooting the Breeze has a little leeway in subject matter, it shouldn't be a haven for poor behavior (and I think you agree on that). Your points about asking questions properly, with enough information up front and then following up with a status post, are very simple but very effective techniques. And while you can enforce the latter to some point by simply posting a response that says "need more nformation," it's quite difficult to promote the latter except through leading by example. Anyway, thanks for your input. I think this is an important topic. Joe

[J.Pluta]

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I certainly agree that email is a tough medium. In fact, the lack of body language leads to misuuderstandings similar to those commercials about the dropped calls, where the silence caused by the lost call is misinterpreted as the worst possible response. This is sometimes the nature of human communications: the simplest misunderstanding can turn a discussion personal, and once a discussion turns personal, it's quite difficult to ratchet it down. And while it's not entirely impossible to return civility to a flame war, it's best to try and avoid it whenever possible. And like I said, be careful what you say, because even a smiley face or a won't necessarily be enough to avoid perceived unkindness. Joe