Forum Decorum

[J.Pluta]

Forum Decorum

** This thread discusses the article: Forum Decorum **
Just to be clear on this, I'm pretty sure I never called for your resignation from IBM. My only issue was that it didn't make sense to have someone who so clearly seemed to dislike RPG working on the RPG compiler. And even that statement is open to debate, since some might argue that having an antagonistic viewpoint actually helps keep a vibrant architectural atmosphere. I know that when I managed architecture design, I expected my people to be passionate about their positions and ready to defend them against the most vigorous of attacks. In any case, sticking to the technical questions and avoiding the personal side of discussions is the way to do things. And yes, I do think that in general we agreed more than disagreed, and that our disagreements really were based more on principles than personalities; they occasionally got out of hand is all. Joe

[J.Pluta]

Forum Decorum

** This thread discusses the article: Forum Decorum **
Yeah, I get whacked about the head and shoulders on a regular basis, but that's mostly because I stick my neck out . I am a big advocate of the platform and the things that make it great (like the RPG language). I also have a very technical background and I can be pretty annoying to people whose positions are based on less technical merits . That's okay. As long as I avoid the personal confrontations, I usually get along with most people, although it might take a little getting used to one another. For example, last week I got the chance to meet some of the real movers and shakers in the Rational tooling world, and as it turns out I'm pretty confident that none of them have cloven hooves for feet, and in fact they want the System i to thrive. Joe

[J.Pluta]

Forum Decorum

** This thread discusses the article: Forum Decorum **
Thanks, Joel. I think that the MCPress Forums have the ability to be an important tool in the community. By remaining free and staying focused almost entirely on the midrange (and other technologies as they relate to the midrange), these forums have the ability to be a major landing place for newcomers. And while it's impossible to guage ahead of time how popular any particular technical forum will be, it's simply common sense that uncivil behavior and wandering discourse is going to turn people off. It will take a little bit of work to keep the forums on track, but I think it can be done. Joe

[H.Boldt]

Forum Decorum

** This thread discusses the article: Forum Decorum **
Hi Joe! Funny, I'm pretty sure you used the word "resign" with regard to my service at IBM! But searching the midrange.com archives turned up zilch. Perhaps it was elsewhere? Maybe, but the midrange.com forums are where we had are more heated discussions. Likewise, I've never said I disliked RPG. I've said that RPG is not appropriate for certain tasks. I've said that Python is my favorite programming language. I've said (or at least implied) that certain RPG language features are goofy. I've said that RPG should never become an OO language. But none of that can be used to suggest that I dislike RPG. Heck, when I get around to looking for a new job in the fall, perhaps I'll end up doing RPG programming! I certainly wouldn't rule out that possibility! (But I'm having a hard time now looking that far ahead. Relaxing and enjoying the summer is what I need to do now!) I suppose what we've demonstrated is that point of view can adversely affect any discussion. You're convinced I disliked RPG. I'm convinced you called for my resignation. I would disagree with you on one point: I see no need to avoid the personal side of things in any discussion. We all have our own personal biases based on our own personal experiences. Understanding these biases can help when trying to understand someone else's point of view. Cheers! Hans

[cwscholbe@dstsystems.com]

Forum Decorum

** This thread discusses the article: Forum Decorum **
I agree that we should never be subjected to abusive personal attacks, however....for whatever consolation it provides....... Once a person starts attacking you personaly...they have lost the argument. Once they can no longer continue the discussion on it's merits...they have lost. Now they're trying to using smoke and mirrors and misdirection so that you don't realize that they've been "out discussed".

[David Abramowitz]

Forum Decorum

** This thread discusses the article: Forum Decorum **
Hans.Boldt said: I suppose what we've demonstrated is that point of view can adversely affect any discussion. IMO opinions may be stated, when expressed as opinions. When opinions are put forward as a point of fact rather than a personal expression friction is sure to follow. It also helps to not put words in other people's mouths or make assumptions as to what they have, or have not done. Many forum contributors base their comments on personal experiences, and that's fine as long these personal experiences aren't magnified into some writer's glorious universal truth that is to be applied to all, all the time. It makes no difference if an individual believes that either Python or PL/I is the best thing since sliced bread, as long as the reader knows that (a) this is the writer's personal point of view, and optionally (b) some benefit may be derived from learning about the writer's experience with the product. Just my $.02 Dave

[J.Pluta]

Forum Decorum

** This thread discusses the article: Forum Decorum **
Hans, your memory is a bit inaccurate. The thread happened five years ago, and the precise post be found here: http://archive.midrange.com/web400/200207/msg00060.html In it, I disagree with your premise that procedural languages are inherently "less capable" (your words) than OO languages, and point out why I believe that RPG is the best language for data driven business applications (a position I still hold). I then continue on to wonder why someone who believes RPG to be fundamentally inferior is still on the compiler team. A bit tactless, to be sure, but far from calling for your resignation from IBM. This, then, is perhaps why we should avoid personal statements like mine. Even five years later, that simple statement is enough to stick in your memory and in fact have grown even worse than it originally was. Joe

[J.Pluta]

Forum Decorum

** This thread discusses the article: Forum Decorum **
And there have been cases in recent history where conversations have definitely drifted into the personal. We need to keep on the lookout for those sorts of posts and somehow curtail them. Joe

[Guest.Visitor]

Forum Decorum

** This thread discusses the article: Forum Decorum **
"some people are emboldened by the anonymous or at least consequence-free nature of the web Yes. For this reason I always use my actual name to avoid the temptation. I too had heated debates with you and others on this forum. However it was due to the fact that I respect and value opinions given in these debates. It does not take any respect away, but rather adds to it. Still, if you or any regular contributor felt any lack of respect from me, I apologize.

[joman7@newnorth.net]

Forum Decorum

** This thread discusses the article: Forum Decorum **
The forums for most of these sites categorize IT people in 3 ways. The first people I see are the ones who have time to invest grasping new enhancements to a compiler who have a lot of non-project time on their hands and look brilliant. These are the people that abhor fixing legacy code by the way. I don't blame them. They only pick projects that are "programming to the stars". Secondly, people who are defensive when you are asked to learn what they are doing. When you look at it, it is garbage that you know needs to be rewritten and have a good laugh. To a user they look like God. They are always fixing crap with crap that can never be fixed. Thirdly, IT people who had to adapt and learn in a short amount of time to complete projects for production. I don't know about anybody else, companies I worked for had NO budget for training. Which, is fine with me. I have bought books from mcpressonline, MISpress, university coursework, and others. I have read IBM manuals and had to let things soak in to learn. Most IT people have a chip on their shoulder and like the "GO TO" or "guru" facade. Everyone that I have seen act like that in my 20 year career always got burned in a matter of time. It pays to be a humble and careful programmer. The successful IT people I've seen, worked great in projects together as a team. With regard to new IT people, they have access to modern developments. They can't imagine coding the way it was 20 years ago. But, that's where provocativeness came in. They would know that exsr = perform = balr. I look at the young people and they think a dump is something left in the outhouse. Heaven forbid to add and subtract address displacement to find an error. If you want to be informative then get the chip off your shoulder. Otherwise, you will just chase good people away into a manual somewhere else. In reality, JAVA = RPG = COBOL = Assembler = C++ = NATURAL = SAS = FOCUS = TSO = SEU = ISPF = IDE = MVS = OS = OS400 = DOSVSE ""POWER"" etc.. Capice, Tisneyesh, Forshtenzy, UNDERSTAND!