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IMHO: Is RPG Free-Form a Cat in Tiger's Clothes?

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  • IMHO: Is RPG Free-Form a Cat in Tiger's Clothes?

    Marigold, Congratulations, you are the first person to give me a solid language improvement. The LIKEREC(*KEY) and the %KDS bif are outstanding tools. I also have always hated creating keylists. Thanks, Jeff

  • #2
    IMHO: Is RPG Free-Form a Cat in Tiger's Clothes?

    True... I've been converting to /free from ILE RPG, and MOVEs were already changed to EVALs.

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    • #3
      IMHO: Is RPG Free-Form a Cat in Tiger's Clothes?

      How about "ArrayB = ArrayA"?

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      • #4
        IMHO: Is RPG Free-Form a Cat in Tiger's Clothes?

        Converting old programs to free... not pretty. Writing all new programs in free... very pretty. I've been writing all new code in Free for around 2 years and find it so much easier to code, read, & maintain. The indenting makes a big difference and I like using key lists within my chains/setll/read statements. I also use the %fields to only update specific fields which allows you to see which fields are updated quickly in the code, instead of looking at output specs. If you miss move that much... write a move function and use it in all your programs!

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        • #5
          IMHO: Is RPG Free-Form a Cat in Tiger's Clothes?

          Stephen Parks wrote: Today, '=' is polymorphic enough for me But you miss my point: supporting MOVE in some fashion wouldn't have changed your programming style. You don't have to use it. Removing it limits me to your opinion. I find that needlessly arbitrary. It's not the compiler writer's job to tell me how I should program. Like you, I have been programming RPG for a living for a few decades, but different experiences apparently lead to different conclusions. Evidently so. I don't find %subst particularly readable or flexible. Judicious use of MOVE and MOVEL made it easier to change field lengths; %subst harcodes field lengths into the source code. I think %editc('x') is a poor replacement for MOVE. But hey, your opinion is your opinion, and I'm happy to let you have it. My point is (and has been all along) that my programming shouldn't be bound by your opinion (or those of the compiler writers). Joe

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          • #6
            IMHO: Is RPG Free-Form a Cat in Tiger's Clothes?

            Okay, perhaps legacy is too much of a loaded word. I should have said existing. I don't care if it was written the day before you upgraded to (insert release when /free became usable here) or if it was written on a S/36 - if the code is well organized and easy to maintain it shouldn't matter if it is written in RPG IV fixed or RPG IV free. As you said, "Any competent programmer can handle MOVE; anybody who can't needs to broaden their career horizons. Me, I'm tired of the industry being dumbed down." I would argue that any competent programmer than knows RPGIV can handle RPG free and vice versa. However, I think there are a number of strong arguments for using free format in new development - I won't repeat Jon's post below.

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            • #7
              IMHO: Is RPG Free-Form a Cat in Tiger's Clothes?

              I think there are a number of strong arguments for using free format in new development Argh. Please, read my posts. At no point have I said DON'T use /free. I've said it over and over. My point is that the misguided absence of MOVE from the /free language is the sort of decision that no compiler writer should make. I am the client, and what *I* want should be foremost, and unfortunately the compiler team lost that concept when they made this decision. And as to those who complain about this topic a waste of time (most of whom are on the "MOVE sucks" side, by the way), I didn't bring it up and I don't bring it up. I was responding to Hassan berating someone else's legitimate opinion and simply reiterating the fact that a %move BIF is STILL an option, and the lack of one is still a mistake. Removing MOVE was a really bad idea then, and it's still a really bad idea now. And please don't trot out that tired crapola about "it wasn't removed because it was never in there"; MOVE exists in the dialect of RPG which /free is supposed to replace, and does not exist in /free; that's a used car sales pitch if ever I heard one. Splitting hairs about the word "remove" is a colossal waste of time (not to mention intellectually insincere). Almost as bad (with all due respect, Jon) is the argument about "it's not a migration path". When I need to do anything but superficial maintenance to a program, I should rewrite it in my current standard for development, which should be /free. The lack of a %move BIF makes it unnecessarily more difficult to do that. Joe

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              • #8
                IMHO: Is RPG Free-Form a Cat in Tiger's Clothes?

                My training was on "conventional", indented style languages. I found adjusting to columnar RPG difficult and I didn't enjoy the transition. Many times I railed against the limitations of the language and syntax (mostly RPG III in those days). However over the years many of the limitations have eased. Longer variable names, wider columns, better text processing functions. I also developed programming habits and styles that adapted to the language and development environment. One thing that's become clear to me is that processing of code (I'm talking about code management tools here) is easier and more practical in a columnar environment. There are fewer functionally equivalent syntactical variations possible. I have, for years now, used tools that look for changes in code. These are relatively simple tools to create and use in a columnar world. They are very difficult to create (and very easy to fool) in a world of freeform indenting. My instincts tell me that freeform indented code is easier to read overall. The indents provide visual cues as to nesting logic. On the other hand, I used to get into endless, and relatively fruitless, arguments. Which of these styles is "better": If condition Then statement Else statement; If condition Then statement Else statement; If condition Then statement Else statement; How many spaces should an indent be? Two, three, and four all seemed to be popular answers. If there's one thing this debate should make clear, it's that programmers have strong opinions on these matters. I'll bet a coffee that most such opinions are formed during the schooling/training process. I'll bet a second coffee that those opinions don't change much with experience. That tells me that Joe is largely correct, in that providing choice is a Good Thing generally. Since backwards compatibility is a key merit of this platform, it would also be a Good Thing if IBM provided a freeform, single statement alternative to columnar MOVE (%Move perhaps?). However, I don't really think that letting any programmer do anything they want, within the confines of a single logical system (however you define that nowadays), is a good idea. Coding standards are still a Good Thing too. It's just that it needs to be practical and driven by business and productivity concerns. It's not a religion.

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                • #9
                  IMHO: Is RPG Free-Form a Cat in Tiger's Clothes?

                  For some reason I thought I could only use the MONITOR command in /free mode. Am I wrong?

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                  • #10
                    IMHO: Is RPG Free-Form a Cat in Tiger's Clothes?

                    You're wrong. :-) Chris

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                    • #11
                      IMHO: Is RPG Free-Form a Cat in Tiger's Clothes?

                      It must be nice to have the time and budget to be doing this. Dave

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                      • #12
                        IMHO: Is RPG Free-Form a Cat in Tiger's Clothes?

                        Peter, This is actually not a bad idea...and so simple too. Thanks, Jeff

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                        • #13
                          IMHO: Is RPG Free-Form a Cat in Tiger's Clothes?

                          Yep. You're wrong. :-) You can use MONITOR and ENDMON in fixed format. Thanks, Jeff

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                          • #14
                            IMHO: Is RPG Free-Form a Cat in Tiger's Clothes?

                            Oh no! Don't EVEN get me started on RPG being "object oriented". Please...let's not open that can of worms. ;-) ha ha ha Jeff

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                            • #15
                              IMHO: Is RPG Free-Form a Cat in Tiger's Clothes?

                              All, I have a hard time with everyone who is arguing that the MOVE and MOVEL were bad, confusing, and/or error prone. While all that may in fact be true. So what!? The same thing could be said of pointers. Are we all going to stop using them? Of course not. The bottom line on the MOVE and MOVEL is that they were useful tools that were removed. All other arguments are simply stylistic differences of opinion. Jeff

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