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Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

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  • dchristie
    replied
    Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Congress lobbied by business to implement these programs?

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  • David Abramowitz
    replied
    Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

    Joe, I'd like to refine your position if I may: H1-B should be abolished at this point. There is no longer a logical basis from any perspective for the existance of H1-B. L-1 needs to stick around in order to avoid counter measures from other countries but. . . . The entire L-1 program has to be rewritten and refined in order to avoid loopholes, and abuses that occur today. To me the most obvious reform is that the L-1 holder may only perform services for the employing company. The corollary is that the employing company may not contract out the services of the L-1 holder to another company. If congress were to amend L-1 in this fashion, it would still permit a company to import its own foreign employees for any purpose. This was the original function and purpose of the L-1 program. The spirit of the law would remain intact, and the abuses should be eliminated. (Abusers are a clever lot, and might think of something else). This reform would also put us on equal footing with other countries. When I speak to politicos, or staffers, I find sympathetic ears with this approach. I would recomend to all posters in this thread that instead of writing another post to this thread.... Write to your congressperson instead! All that's can be said... in this thread... has already been said! The thread gives me a pain in the head, which I dread... This thread should be dead... Dave

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  • J.Pluta
    replied
    Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

    "When you do not agree with a companies business practice:" It's not the companies, Dave, it's the Congressional programs that encourage the abuse of cheap foreign labor. Once those programs have been abolished, then we'll be playing on a level playing field once again.

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  • dchristie
    replied
    Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

    Sorry it was enforcing, not closing... "Does Canada play the same games?" Of course. "Is this really a problem for Canada?" No. We can go work elsewhere, in the US if we have to. "So if US workers are doing some of this, stop em." No. We will increase our efforts to compete and convince business leaders here of our abilities. If that doesn't work, then another carreer is in order. The point I was trying to make is that the tone of this discussion seems to be that only North America has the right to go for the golden dream, and we are the only victims. Why shouldn't other countries go for it? We wouldn't think twice about taking jobs from them if it meant increasing the bottom line here. Enough negative. Lets offer some solutions: When you do not agree with a companies business practice: 1) Stop investing (stocks) in the company. 2) Stop buying product and services from the company. If you work for a company which will outsource: 1) Train the new consultants, show management your team leadership skills. If they do not keep you, then it's their lost. The above will probably not solve the problem, but will let you sleep at night. Thanks Dave

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  • J.Pluta
    replied
    Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

    By local, I meant American, i.e. domestic. Yes, you would have to displace existing workers to fit the definition of the problem I'm addressing. If you choose not to expand your workforce and instead use an outsourcing firm, that's a different issue. It's related, of course, but it's not quite the same thing. The problem with what you're doing is that you're assuming they're cheaper than doing it in-house. I'm sure you did some sort of cost estimate, but without actual numbers we can't compare apples to apples here. That's the primary reason I'm trying to find an outsourcing project that replaced in-house staff, in order to compare the before and after costs in real dollars. Joe

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  • Guest.Visitor
    Guest replied
    Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

    Joe, Ok, had I hired 10 programmers to do the EDI effort and then FIRED them to use SPS (which, by the way, is not a local outfit as you suggest) then I would have satisfied your definition. Ok, maybe because SPS is domestic (is that what you meant by local?) then let's look at my Avery Dennison solution. I could hire 10 programmers to do my EDI effort, then fire them and give the job to Avery in China. Would that satisfy your definition? Must I fire people first? Or does the fact that I use an outsource outfit, one in China, before I hire people fit into your definition? Note, however, that I am outsourcing to get resources and expertise that we don't have in house. I could certainly find those resources, but I couldn't do it cheaper than my outsourcing vendors are doing it. Cripes. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Joe Pluta" wrote in message news:6ae8818f.142@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > SPS is a local outsourcing outfit. Since the entire thread, over 100 messages, was about offshore outsourcing, reasonable people would assume that I was referring to offshore outsourcing without me having to explicitly state it. > > I will CONTINUE to state that I have yet to hear of a successful offshore outsourcing project in our industry. > > And just in case I wasn't entirely clear on THIS point: I am looking for outsourcing projects that replace local developers at a reduced cost. This thread is not about using outsourcing to supplement your existing staff, it is about replacing existing American workers with offshore resources in order to reduce costs. > > Cripes. > > Joe

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  • J.Pluta
    replied
    Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

    "Sounds like there's a lot of employment opportunities out there, eh?" Well, considering you were dead wrong in your other assertion, let's see how this one stacks up: There are 5000 ASP/.NET jobs nationwide on Monster. Extrapolate that to perhaps 8000 Java/JSP jobs, and there are perhaps 13000 jobs in what are arguably the two major technology sectors. Toss in another 2000 VB jobs, and you've got a whopping 15000 openings. You can play with the numbers if you want, double, triple them even, but let's just go with the 15000 openings on Monster. There are currently over 300,000 H-1B visa holders in this country, and many more L-1 visa holders. That means there are hundreds of thousands of displaced IT workers. 15000 jobs doesn't seem like such a big number measured against that figure, does it? Add to it this fact: there is a current ANNUAL quota of 65,000 more H-1B visas alone. That's four times the total number of jobs. Or let's look at it this way: there are about 3,000,000 IT workers in this country (DOL statistics). At 6.5% unemployment, that means there are roughly 200,000 people looking for jobs, and yet we're bringing in tens of thousands of other workers as well as reducing jobs through offshore outsourcing. Does it still seem like there's a lot of employment opportunities? Joe

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  • Guest.Visitor
    Guest replied
    Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

    Sounds like there's a lot of employment opportunities out there, eh? chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Joe Pluta" wrote in message news:6ae8818f.139@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > "I DO know one thing. If you look anywhere for employment opportunities you'll see many more for ASP and .NET than for Java or JSP." > > Monster.com > For Chicago: ASP OR .NET: 152 jobs, Java or JSP: 221 jobs > San Francisco: ASP or .NET: 55 jobs, Java or JSP: 112 jobs > > Dice.com: > For Illinois: ASP or .NET: 162 jobs, Java or JSP: 181 jobs > California: ASP or .NET: 873 jobs, Java or JSP: 984 jobs > > Just a quick scan. > > Joe

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  • J.Pluta
    replied
    Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

    SPS is a local outsourcing outfit. Since the entire thread, over 100 messages, was about offshore outsourcing, reasonable people would assume that I was referring to offshore outsourcing without me having to explicitly state it. I will CONTINUE to state that I have yet to hear of a successful offshore outsourcing project in our industry. And just in case I wasn't entirely clear on THIS point: I am looking for outsourcing projects that replace local developers at a reduced cost. This thread is not about using outsourcing to supplement your existing staff, it is about replacing existing American workers with offshore resources in order to reduce costs. Cripes. Joe

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  • Guest.Visitor
    Guest replied
    Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

    Joe asked: "Again and again I ask for examples of successful outsourced projects in the midrange industry, and I have yet to hear of one. " We have completed a hugely successful outsourcing of our EDI initiative. A third party company called SPS, handles all of our EDI trading partners for our domestic vendors. Wildly successful. We're about to embark on a similar but broader initiative with Avery Dennison for our Asian vendors. I expect it to be just as successful. We couldn't possibly have done either of these projects with our limited internal resources. So, you can no longer claim you haven't heard of a successful outsourcing project. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

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  • Guest.Visitor
    Guest replied
    Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

    ctibodoe, Then you should be thrilled that Arnold was elected as governor of California. Had he not, we'd have millions of illegal aliens with California drivers licenses starting in January. Imagine the havoc that would have created. Suddenly, the drivers license would no longer be accepted anywhere as proof of ID. The borders would be wide open and we'd be flooded with people here without visas. I think it would have dramatically change a lot of things including travel. Fortunately, the California legislature came to their senses and UNANIMOUSLY overturned a law they put into place 2 months ago. Damn politicians. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "ctibodoe" wrote in message news:6ae8818f.134@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > Ok, Just my opinion. Enforcing Borders: Enforce existing laws, eliminate temporary visa games. I don't believe I said close any borders. > I do not, and stated I do not believe in stopping immigration. I do believe in trying to change some of the visa games that are being abused, and I believe it has been stated enough that everyone who is following this knows which ones are being abused. > > Joe, isn't this what you have been talking about? > > Visa's should exist to allow special circumstances to be accomodated. If I am the only person that can do 'X' and Canada needs 'X' done, then Canada should be able to utilize me. But if there are alot of 'X' doers who exist in Canada, I should not be allowed to go to Canada and get that project for less money. And if David is the only one who can do 'Y' and USA needs 'Y' done, then USA should be able to utilize David. Not to put any Citizens at a disadvantage in whatever country it is. Because, I believe that the Country belongs to the Citizens. What is infuriating about this is, this is being done to us by our tax paid elected officials. > > Does Canada play the same games? Is this really a problem for Canada? So if US workers are doing some of this, stop em.

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  • Guest.Visitor
    Guest replied
    Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

    Agreed. It may be also because we don't have any 20-something programmers here. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Joe Pluta" wrote in message news:6ae8818f.132@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > The thing I really enjoy about the forum here is its civility. Even though the conversations can get heated, as they did in this obviously touchy subject, I've seen over and over again that the conversation usually gets back on-track. This is a far cry from some of the other forums on the net. > > I won't try to guess what it is that makes the MCMagOnline readership different (that could in itself cause another ruckus ) but I am glad for whatever it is. > > Joe

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  • Guest.Visitor
    Guest replied
    Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

    ctibodoe, I was talking purely hypothetical. Most of the candidates I see are at the high end of the range. I don't have a low end opening and seldom do. In fact, it's been over 10 years that I hired anyone at the low (junior) level So, in practicality, it's not an issue for me. There are a lot of things that go into the thinking from "the other side of the table" as you put it. Many things go into just getting an interview. For example, if the person doesn't send a cover email with their resume they're are bumped down a notch. I may be old fashioned, but there are certain protocols that tell me something about the candidate. If I get 100 resumes for a position, and sometimes I get 200+, it can take many days of my time to go through them all. I have a system where, when I receive a resume, I place it into one of three categories: "Not likely", "Likely", or "Very Likely". My first set of interviews will come from the "very likely" pile. There are a number of things that I look for that place the person into one of those 3 categories. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "ctibodoe" wrote in message news:6ae8818f.131@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > What is a person supposed to do with an illogical 30%plus swing in employment offer, when the alternative is unemployment or career change or relocation. What is more logical? To write someone off because of falling into a % bucket, you are probably missing out on some great people. Not trying to be mean spirited, just trying to understand the thinking on the other side of the table. Supply and demand determine salaries and that seems pretty logical. It also seems pretty logical to accept a job at what the market determines at that particular time. Then when the market changes and the employer doesn't, then it seems logical being a logical business participant, to change with the market when your employer doesn't, after all isn't that the way he plays his business. So I still have a lack of understanding about your 30% bucket. > > I don't understand how you think taking your comment about not considering someone who had a 30% swing in compensation is an oddball leap and not a logical conclusion about your hiring practices, when the person who takes the pay cut or pay increase has logic on his side when he has bills to pay. > > Age discrimination has affected my situation more than once, I was just curious why you left it out, as it is probably the first one many of us are experiencing. > > You have had 3 employers since 98, I believe? Does that make you a job hopper? Then the number of employers I have had shouldn't automatically, logically make me one either. > > Maybe another hiring manager out there will read some of this and at least look a little harder at some of the good people out there who haven't had logical career paths. In today's world, what in the heck is a logical career path. > > Chuck,I enjoy reading your opinions, even when opposite of mine. > > And great article Joe, let's enforce our borders, and never stop legal immigration, as I am a result of past immigration. I'm betting not too many of you could pronounce my last name, much less spell it.

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  • J.Pluta
    replied
    Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

    "I DO know one thing. If you look anywhere for employment opportunities you'll see many more for ASP and .NET than for Java or JSP." Monster.com For Chicago: ASP OR .NET: 152 jobs, Java or JSP: 221 jobs San Francisco: ASP or .NET: 55 jobs, Java or JSP: 112 jobs Dice.com: For Illinois: ASP or .NET: 162 jobs, Java or JSP: 181 jobs California: ASP or .NET: 873 jobs, Java or JSP: 984 jobs Just a quick scan. Joe

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  • J.Pluta
    replied
    Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

    "Joe, isn't this what you have been talking about?" Despite the heat and light the conversation generated, that was indeed my primary point: it's not foreign labor (or laborers) that I have a problem with, it's the abuse of the policies. The visas are a sham and have been almost from day one. The outsourcing issue, which was a small part of my article but yet the one that caused the greatest hue and cry, was less my focus. However, subsequent research has showed that this is a problem as well; while the outsourcing firms and employees insist they are capable of generating quality product, there are still issues of the widespread use of complete newbies as well as a more disturbing trend that condones or at least turns a blind eye to lying on resumes. Whatever the truth of these copmlaints, the end result is that we keep hearing of outsourced projects that actually cost more than they would have in house. Again and again I ask for examples of successful outsourced projects in the midrange industry, and I have yet to hear of one. And still IT management insists that this is an intelligent option. It's almost like the Extreme Programming movement, where they claim the gigantic Chrysler C3 project as a victory, yet it was over budget, over schedule, only one third finished, and then completely scrapped. As far as I can tell, at least in our industry, the Outsourcing Emperor is buck naked. Joe

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