Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

[Guest.Visitor]

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

Joe, I only report on my experiences. Here in socal an AS/400 programmer makes in the range of $65k to $105k. More toward the latter than the former. Your mileage may vary based upon locale. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Joe Pluta" wrote in message news:6ae8818f.55@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > I know you often type completely off-the-wall stuff to get a rise out of people, but this one is particularly egregious, Chuck: > > "They've grown accustomed to having the Motorhome, the ATVs and the 2 SUVs in the three car garage and just can't believe that someone would work for less and do without those luxuries." > > Which AS/400 programmers do you know with a motorhome and two SUVs in the three car garage? This is the sort of hyperbole that usually detracts from whatever point you're trying to make. > > I'm talking about two people, both working and trying to stay in a modest suburban house and put away some money for the kids' college fund. I'm talking about working single moms trying to make sure their kids can afford summer sports leagues. Your vision of the affluent AS/400 programmer is based on something you might have seen in the 90's, but I guarantee it's not the standard of living we're striving for today. Today we're just trying to make sure our kids are okay. > > Don't insult good, hard-working Americans with your rather skewed notion of our goals. We don't want to be rich. We just want to provide for our families. > > Joe

[Guest.Visitor]

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

Joe said: "I'm talking about two people, both working and trying to stay in a modest suburban house and put away some money for the kids' college fund. I'm talking about working single moms trying to make sure their kids can afford summer sports leagues." I still stand by my comments. It matters not what you earn. It only matters if you are over priced for your skill set. We, as a country, should NOT protect underskilled or over paid workers to create artificially inflated salaries. The balloon will eventually pop. To stay employed at a higher salary you must continually increase your value. Most (but not all) employers are looking for a good return on investment (ROI) and that includes employees. And that is the basis of my comments. If you're constantly reinventing yourself and improving your value to the organization then you can earn the SUVs, big house and RVs. Unfortunately, many people focus on those things and expect it as an entitlement. As to the college fund. Anybody can go to college, at least here in California. A degree from one of the University of California campuses or the Calif. State Univ. campuses (two of the most prestigious colleges in the world) can cost less than $10,000 for all 4 years. It's the expensive colleges that are part of the "entitlement" culture that we think we need to be entitled to have. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[J.Pluta]

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

"It matters not what you earn. It only matters if you are over priced for your skill set." Overpriced compared to whom? Somebody in America or somebody in Bangalore? Since you're all about the ROI, Chuck, why don't you tell us what you think is the correct salary for a 20 year RPG veteran with extensive industry knowledge. I'm quite interested to see what you think your peers are worth. Then give me a salary quote for the same person who has taken night courses in Java and gotten one of the myriad Java certifications. Joe

[J.Pluta]

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

I guess I didn't understand your point: "I just feel that you discounted other's views a little too blithely. Not that you didn't listen or try to be fair. You did. I just felt you were passionate about what you felt and it caused you to overlook some of the points other's were making." You said "discounted ... too blithely", but then "Not that you didn't listen" and that I "overlook some of the points". And now you're saying "I don't listen to others". I got a little confused, and I (evidently incorrectly) thought that you meant I was dismissing valid points. My answer was that I didn't consider some of them valid - I considered them to be biased and non-factual. So when I argue against them, it's possible that my comments sounded a little simplistic. You have to also understand that especially on that forum there are occasionally language issues, and that it's best to keep answers simple. I have written sentences that I thought were clear and concise, only to find that I used some American idiom that simply didn't translate. At other times, I suppose I am frustrated by having to say the same things over and over again. In particular, the Indian philosophy that it doesn't matter who writes the code as lond as it gets finished, that bothers me. In trying to explain it over and over, I get return phrases like "I don't care who does the laundry, my maid or her daughter, as long as its clean." Certain cultural chasms can be quite tiresome to deal with, and I guess my frustration sometimes shows. THAT I have no excuse for, but it does happen. In any event, I do listen, Daniel, but sometimes I get confused. I'm only human . But thanks for taking the time to clarify your views. Joe

[Guest.Visitor]

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

You hit the nail on the head when you said: I believe that we, as Americans, have been beaten at our own game, capitalism, and are simply poor losers. Since America was the country that has made India accept globalism on many counts (There are many, many American businesses out here in India - They are doing well at the expense of our local and small-scale industries - millions are out of jobs), America should be man enough to accept the reality of its own game. It is only in software that the tides have turned. The advent of software in India has changed the quality of lives and people are increasingly growing up to western etiquettes as well as quality of software. I agree that a few Indians do ask questions in egroups like the ones mentioned. However, Indians are not at all the only ones who ask such questions. Americans outnumber them actually. Indians have lots of other qualities like flexibility. The most important point is of course that the JOB NEEDS TO GET DONE and done WELL. If the Indians can do it at a lesser cost, what makes Americans cry foul? Indians are out there to earn a living. We are not interested in harming your economy. As far as comments about living standards are concerned, I think that is purely racist. If we have money, living standards will follow as has happened in India in the last ten years. What globalisatin has done here is to make even the common man think about higher goals and try to achieve them. If legislature is used to stop the flow now, that will be completely partial.

[Guest.Visitor]

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

Also, about people made to train their replacements: There are several points. 1. If they are not meant to do so, they may be blackmailing the organisation into retaining them in the face of non-performance because of a certain skill set or knowledge which they do not share. That will make it anti-corporate, anti-apitalist, etc. everything that has made America what it is. 2. If A is made to replace B, it can not be simply because A is cheaper. It has to be because the job needs a skill set {x,y,z} which the organisation thinks A has or can build better/faster/both than B AND at a lesser cost. 3. In the end, it is going to be fair, whatever it is.

[Guest.Visitor]

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

>Don't insult good, hard-working Americans with your rather skewed notion of our goals. We don't want to be rich. We just want to provide for our families. <<

What makes you use that to insult good, hard-working Indians? Aren't we all providing for our families?

[Guest.Visitor]

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

>>Overpriced compared to whom? Somebody in America or somebody in Bangalore? Since you're all about the ROI, Chuck, why don't you tell us what you think is the correct salary for a 20 year RPG veteran with extensive industry knowledge<<<

Then let's play fair and decide who should be entitled to what and what one is worth. Why complain about the rules after a goal is scored by the opponent?

[Guest.Visitor]

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

An interesting discussion - not quite flaming yet, but ready to boil over if it continues this way. The loss of jobs and globalization of the economy, among other recent trends, seems to me to be the advent of the corporate takeover of the world. The US, or India, or the EU may someday simply become subdivisions of ADM, EXXON, or AGFA if these trends continue and "Business Interests" prevail over all else. When was the last time you could vote to change the policy decisions of DuPont? I would not disregard what little policy influence we have left, and I don't advise tiptoeing and tapdancing for your ELECTED officials if you sense a problem somewhere. Simply tell them that you will do everything in your power to put THEM out of a job if they don't listen - diplomatically, of course. That's about all we have left.

[Guest.Visitor]

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

Joe Pluta stated: "At other times, I suppose I am frustrated by having to say the same things over and over again. In particular, the Indian philosophy that it doesn't matter who writes the code as lond as it gets finished, that bothers me." I don't understand what's wrong with that statement. It's also the philosophy of most American businesses. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[David Abramowitz]

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

Here are some indisputable facts on a personal level.

1. My client has decided to outsource the entire It operation (domestically).
2. I have been instructed to train several people on how our system works.
3. The cost of outsourcing will be more than triple current expenditures.
4. There has been no study of measurable gain of ROI.
5. The contract was awarded without a needs analysis, or a spec.
6. The contract was awarded without the knowledge of IT. IT was told after the fact.
7. The owner of the outsourcing firm, and the senior VP of sales are good buddies.

Dave

[Guest.Visitor]

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

Joe asked: "Overpriced compared to whom?" That's a simple one. Compared to your competition. It matters not whether your competition is the guy two doors down from you or 2 continents down. You will, and should, always be compared to anyone else who can complete the same tasks. Joe also asked: "why don't you tell us what you think is the correct salary for a 20 year RPG veteran with extensive industry knowledge." My answer is: it depends. Yes, that seems like a hedge, but if my needs are for a skilled programmer with 7 years experience and moderate industry knowledge then the person with 20 years experience with heavy industry knowledge is worth no more to me than the 7 year guy. I don't buy an iSeries model 890 when a model 820 will do. Joe challenged: "Then give me a salary quote for the same person who has taken night courses in Java and gotten one of the myriad Java certifications." Of course, this is a silly comparison. The Java certified guy with less experience is worth less. However, let me say that if the Java certified guy fills my requirements I will definitely hire him over the 20 year veteran simply because my budget was designed for a lower level position. It's a harsh reality that if I've budgeted $65k for a position and a resume' shows up where the applicant has been paid $90k+ for the last 10 years then they I will not interview that person. My 28 years of management experience tells me that if they take my $65k offer then they'll move on when a $90k job opens up. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Joe Pluta" wrote in message news:6ae8818f.64@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > "It matters not what you earn. It only matters if you are over priced for your skill set." > > Overpriced compared to whom? Somebody in America or somebody in Bangalore? Since you're all about the ROI, Chuck, why don't you tell us what you think is the correct salary for a 20 year RPG veteran with extensive industry knowledge. I'm quite interested to see what you think your peers are worth. > > Then give me a salary quote for the same person who has taken night courses in Java and gotten one of the myriad Java certifications. > > Joe

[Guest.Visitor]

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

Dave, There are a number of companies that are just foolish. Remember, 95% of all businesses fail in the first 5 years. Many more fail after that first 5 years. So, based upon those numbers it's safe to say that MOST businesses will fail. The facts you pointed out below is a reason business failure. However, I've also seen many businesses that are so profitable that a poor ROI on projects doesn't harm them. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "David Abramowitz" wrote in message news:6ae8818f.73@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > Here are some indisputable facts on a personal level. > * My client has decided to outsource the entire It operation (domestically). > * I have been instructed to train several people on how our system works. > * The cost of outsourcing will be more than triple current expenditures. > * There has been no study of measurable gain of ROI. > * The contract was awarded without a needs analysis, or a spec. > * The contract was awarded without the knowledge of IT. IT was told after the fact. > * The owner of the outsourcing firm, and the senior VP of sales are good buddies. > Dave

[J.Pluta]

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

"My answer is: it depends. Yes, that seems like a hedge," Yes, Chuck, it is. You provide no answers, only put the blame on the IT professional. Your only statement is to "learn more skills", even though they are already highly skilled. The comparison I offered was for a skilled RPG veteran who has also taken Java courses. What I'm trying to do is to determine from your viewpoint what an RPG programmer should ask for, and what other training they shoud have, because you say they are overpaid and underskilled. However, the real answer is that you will hire the cheapest person available for your position without regard to what it does to the industry. You simply are looking for the lowest bidder, and you are willing to take someone offshore to do it. That's exactly the attitude that's killing IT. You won't say how much you're willing to pay, you're just telling everybody they have to undercut everybody else, including people from other countries whose standard of living is one sixth of ours. You are part of the problem, Chuck. Joe

[J.Pluta]

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

"My 28 years of management experience tells me that if they take my $65k offer then they'll move on when a $90k job opens up." This argument is illogical. Who do you know that wouldn't move if a $90K position shows up? Since you show no loyalty to your workers, it's not surprising that they are going to jump whenever they can. But this is interesting: now you're saying that if somebody made more money in the past but is willing to reduce their salary requirements, you still won't hire them. Because basically you want all your work done by grunt labor so that you can pay them the minimum without worrying about them getting better jobs. This sounds like indentured servitude (or a visa program). You are definitely a part of the problem, Chuck. Joe