Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

Joe asked: "I am asking a simple question: how much do you think these people are worth?" I DID state in an earlier post that the 7+ year experienced programmer would command in a range of $65k to $95k. Possibly more if the circumstances were correct. Did you miss that post? Joe then stated (showing that he only reads part of my replies): "You refuse to answer the questions." chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

Starbuck5250, Or, you can just look at Monster.com. I advertised for a senior programmer/analyst a month ago in Monster and the L.A. Times. I have not, and probably will not, entertain any offers from head hunters. I got about 80 resumes in the first week and feel there was enough good talent there from which to choose. I got resumes from all over the country, even all over the world. Surely, this is something that you should be able to access in Albany. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "starbuck5250" wrote in message news:7BA6D7C9C0CCFCD1977093C57F2774C6@in.WebX.Wawy ahGHajS... > Joe said > > >So unless you are hiring people with visas who have > >higher skill sets than Americans (unlikely in the RPG > >world) or you are trying to find uncommon combinations > >of skill sets (such as advanced RPG knowledge and > >web application experience), or you are illegally hiring > >non-citizens at lower than the prevailing wage, then you > >have no reason to go outside the American market. > > I'm responding in the spirit of one who wants to be part of the solution, so > please read my words in that light. > > The American market is something of a misnomer, in that it is difficult for > a programmer here in Albany, NY to know about job opportunities in sunny > California. It is very apparent that overseas body shops find these jobs > and place the résumés of their employees in front of hiring personnel. It's > clear enough that there's no real US organisation who will place American > programmer's résumés in front of many potential employers. > > What are my choices here? I can sign on with a half dozen recruiting firms, > but that poses an ethical problem for me, in that I'll have a bunch working > for me, but only one will be paid for their efforts. I can sign on with a > large consulting company like Keane and trust that the economy doesn't get > me laid off in a year (now that I'm at the bottom of the career ladder. > Again.) It really looks like it is not possible to be an employee with a > steady job (a career even?!) The future seems to be hopping from project to > project (like the contractors do.) But how does a one-man contractor get > his name out there? > > Sign me Bewildered in Albany > --buck > > > > > > > >

[J.Pluta]

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

Wanna know what's really interesting? That page has a rotating ad space, and when I clicked in the ad happened to be for: eServer iSeries! Very eerie... Joe

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

Joe Pluta wrote: > Thanks, Bill. I just couldn't make sense of the point - will he or > won't he hire Americans, and what is the price/skillset level that he > requires? I just can't wrap my head around it. He will hire "American", he just won't hire someone who is willing to take a drop in salary (which goes directly against his feelings about those out of work). You are mixing several scenarios that have been discussed: Chuck thinks anyone out of work and complaining about their unemployment is just being stubborn and not willing to price themselves at market rates. Chuck is looking for a programmer and is surprised that some people who have worked at rates higher than what he might pay, or what he puts at their worth bothered to send in a resume. (I can't tell the scenario since I haven't seen the advertisement and whether or not salary was mentioned in the ad). Many applicants that responded to his ad had "un-American" last names. Residing also in Southern California I can relate to that and also just note it as an item of interest. Bill

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

Here's an article I found interesting on the market effects of Walmart. http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/77/walmart.html

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

kausix wrote: > Since America was the country that has made India accept globalism on > many counts (There are many, many American businesses out here in > India - They are doing well at the expense of our local and > small-scale industries - millions are out of jobs), America should be > man enough to accept the reality of its own game. It is only in > software that the tides have turned. Interesting concept, I wonder if Indians will feel the same way when the companies currently using them will move on to even cheaper countries. There is an enormous parallel between off-shore programming and off-shore manufacturing. I'm just amazed at the lengths some manufacturers will go to keep the price of their goods low. An article I scanned yesterday mentioned that one manufacturer is threatening Southern Chinese employees with the movement of facilities to Western China. Bill

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

Joe Pluta wrote: > As far as I've been able to read: > > 1. You're not hiring American workers because they're too expensive. > > 2. You're not hiring outsourcing firms. > > I mean, I could be wrong about point one - you might hiring American > workers, but just expressing your opinion that they're overpaid and > underskilled, but that's not the sense I got from your statements. > > So who are you hiring? I think I'll timidly step in here. Joe, Chuck is/will hire locally; what you are interpreting as his desire to hire from overseas is Chuck's lack of empathy for other programmers in different life situations. I dislike the 3rd person reference, but from what I can see, Chuck has buckets for everyone and the placement of people in those buckets are a very black and white process. Bill

[J.Pluta]

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

"You simply have no idea what I'm willing to pay." No, I don't, because I'm still waiting for you to make one concrete answer as to what a reasonable salary for a reasonable skill set is. You won't do that, but you say that American programmers are underskilled and overpaid, so I can only assume that whatever Americans are making is too much for you. What other conclusion can I draw? Joe

[J.Pluta]

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

Bill Robins said: "what you are interpreting as his desire to hire from overseas is Chuck's lack of empathy for other programmers in different life situations." Thanks, Bill. I just couldn't make sense of the point - will he or won't he hire Americans, and what is the price/skillset level that he requires? I just can't wrap my head around it. Joe

[J.Pluta]

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

"It's clear that you haven't been in management. If you had, then you would understand the implications of a manager posting private salary information in a public forum." I am asking a simple question: how much do you think these people are worth? It's not a private salary question. I am not asking how much someone makes, I am asking what you think they SHOULD make. I asked how many skills are required to justify an $80K or $60K salary. These can't even be VAGUELY associated with revealing private salary information. I'm trying to keep this conversation factual. You refuse to answer the questions. As to my credentials, before my tenure as an independent consultant and now as an independent software vendor, I was the Manager of Architecture at System Software Associates, at the time the world's largest AS/400 software developer. I had hiring, firing, salary, budget, hardware, software, design, development and QA responsibility for the entire client/server development staff, which put out three million-line products translated to eight languages in the space of two years. I also had indirect responsibility for marketing and revenue forecasts. Joe

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

Joe said >So unless you are hiring people with visas who have >higher skill sets than Americans (unlikely in the RPG >world) or you are trying to find uncommon combinations >of skill sets (such as advanced RPG knowledge and >web application experience), or you are illegally hiring >non-citizens at lower than the prevailing wage, then you >have no reason to go outside the American market. I'm responding in the spirit of one who wants to be part of the solution, so please read my words in that light. The American market is something of a misnomer, in that it is difficult for a programmer here in Albany, NY to know about job opportunities in sunny California. It is very apparent that overseas body shops find these jobs and place the résumés of their employees in front of hiring personnel. It's clear enough that there's no real US organisation who will place American programmer's résumés in front of many potential employers. What are my choices here? I can sign on with a half dozen recruiting firms, but that poses an ethical problem for me, in that I'll have a bunch working for me, but only one will be paid for their efforts. I can sign on with a large consulting company like Keane and trust that the economy doesn't get me laid off in a year (now that I'm at the bottom of the career ladder. Again.) It really looks like it is not possible to be an employee with a steady job (a career even?!) The future seems to be hopping from project to project (like the contractors do.) But how does a one-man contractor get his name out there? Sign me Bewildered in Albany --buck

[J.Pluta]

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

Chuck, I urged our legislature to get OUT of the visa issue! The visa policies, both H-1B and L-1, were created by Congress to aid in a perceived shortage of American high tech workers back in the 90's. Given the state of unemployment in those sectors today, it is my belief that the programs have outlived their useful purpose and should be removed from the books. And I am not alone in this belief - nobody is claiming a current shortage. Even companies like Forrester (which were claiming a shortage as late as last year) now admit that there is no such shortage. But they have a new tack! The outsourcing companies and their consulting partners are NOW saying that, because American companies are outsourcing, American workers aer finding other jobs, and thus there will be a new shortage of workers! How's that for a self-fulfilling prophecy? Anyway, curtailing or eliminating the H-1B and L-1 visa programs would in effect would return us to the status quo prior to those visa prgorams being enacted and would reduce the Congressional involvement in the employment issue. Does that clear up my position? Joe

[J.Pluta]

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

"I have over 100 resumes from my current programmer search and you're way off base on how common the combination is." Part of our disconnect, Chuck, is that I don't equate HTML with web application skills. I can think of few cases where RPG knowledge in combination with HTML is good for much of anything except perhaps basic CGI programming. Why would you have RPG programmers designing HTML? HTML is usually best designed by a good HTML design tool. Web applications, on the other hand - JSPs, and certainly servlets and JSP II architecture - is definitely a plus for an RPG programmer. Another plus would be SQL and especially stored procedures. XML and the ability to access the IFS, definitely a good skill to add to RPG. But basic HTML just isn't a power skill. So are you telling me the key to programming in your shop is RPG and HTML, with JavaScript for good measure, and no Java or JSP? My guess is you can find plenty of those right here in America. Joe

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

Joe, Refresh my memory. Wasn't it you who urged us to go to our legislature and have them get involved in the visa issue? chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Joe Pluta" wrote in message news:6ae8818f.99@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > "However, having said that I do NOT want federal legislation to protect jobs in our industry." > > Um. When in ALL of my posts, my entire article, or in any place on the planet have I asked for legislation to protect jobs????? > > Joe

Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

Joe, It's clear that you haven't been in management. If you had, then you would understand the implications of a manager posting private salary information in a public forum. My condolences. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Joe Pluta" wrote in message news:6ae8818f.92@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > "Make yourself MORE VALUABLE than the competition, e.g. offshore workers, and you will do just fine." > > We still are. It's because you're willing to hire cheap offshore labor that we can't compete. You've already said you won't hire someone who is stepping down in salary, Chuck. Those were YOUR words. So how can they compete? You've locked them out of your shop by your hiring practices. Instead, they'd have to have three, four times the skills of someone offshore. That's not reasonable. > > Tell me what skill set you think would justify an $80,000 a year salary. How about $60,000? Please, statr quantifying and stop using fuzzy phrases. I'm trying to get an answer, not an excuse. > > Joe