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Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

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  • #91
    Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

    "My gripe is about those that do the same thing day after day, never improving their skills, only knowing RPG III, not knowing HTML or JavaScript and then gripe like hell when they're laid off and can't find new work." There isn't one person that I know who is insisting on an RPG III job, Chuck. They are RPG programmers, with varying levels of ILE ability, and at least passing knowledge of browsers. They may not know HTML, but if you put that down as a requirement, I'm sure they can learn it. You're willing to teach somebody offshore your business, you should be willing to let someone who has a solid programming background learn a new skill as well. How much HTML do they have to know, Chuck? Concrete facts, man. How much JavaScript? What do they need it for and why? You want an RPG programmer to be a web developer, but I guarantee you're not finding outsourced web development labor that knows RPG. Joe

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    • #92
      Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

      "I've never hired someone offshore and don't have any plans to do so. It would be a logistical nightmare for me and my company. What I DID say, please go back and reread my statements, is that there is nothing wrong with competition and we should not legislate high salaries." And that's my point. Outsourcing doesn't work, and I don't really care about it. But I do care about visa holders artificially deflating programming prices. Have you hired visa programmers? If so, why? Were they being hired at the average American salary level as mandated by law? If so, your price point argument goes out the window. So unless you are hiring people with visas who have higher skill sets than Americans (unlikely in the RPG world) or you are trying to find uncommon combinations of skill sets (such as advanced RPG knowledge and web application experience), or you are illegally hiring non-citizens at lower than the prevailing wage, then you have no reason to go outside the American market. Joe

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      • #93
        Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

        Who ARE you hiring? Yuo seem to be saying you're not hiring American workers because they cost too much, and you've specifically stated you're not hiring outsourcing firms. So who are you hiring? Or are you just using this forum to vent your regular mantra that you consider American programmers overpriced and underskilled? Joe

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        • #94
          Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

          Anyway, Chuck, it seems that I have a few misapprehensions about your situation, and I dno't think I've perhaps explained my own opinions as succinctly as I might. I've fallen victim to saying a few phrases that aren't exactly constructive, so I'd like to do one of two things: 1. Find some ground rules to discuss your situation. This has to do with determining what you think the current required skill sets are and what the market rate is for such skills. I'd like to see what positions you see open in today's industry and why you think Americans can't fill those positions. It is my belief that if we cut past our own respective rhetorics that we may be able to meet somewhere in the middle on what the issues are. 2. We just drop the conversation, since it's obvious that we come from diametrically opposed viewpoints and there is little to gain by simply reiterating our stances. It's up to you. If you feel like answering my fist question using some sort of concrete facts (skill lists, round salary figures), then we can continue. If not, then let's just agree to disagree, and for my part I apologize for any things I said which were less than complimentary to you as a person. I get very frustrated by this because I know of people who HAVE kept their skills up, who HAVE learned new job skills, and who are being asked to accept pay rates of less than $25/hour. Combine that with your concept that someone willing to work for less than they used to make is not a good risk, and I just don't see how anyone can get a job. But that doesn't excuse rudeness, and I certainly was rude. I apologize. Joe

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          • #95
            Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

            "However, having said that I do NOT want federal legislation to protect jobs in our industry." Um. When in ALL of my posts, my entire article, or in any place on the planet have I asked for legislation to protect jobs????? Joe

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            • #96
              Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

              "Of course, without such workers you would never be able to afford lettuce, tomatoes, or any other fruit or vegetable. " The migrant farm worker question is completely different than the H-1B and L-1 visa issue, Chuck, and it's inappropriate for this conversation. We can bring in all sorts of outside conversations; this is about programmers. And personally, I'm perfectly happy to pay higher prices for produce, so the argument doesn't wash. Joe

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              • #97
                Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                Joe, Since you seem to want to make this a personal fight, let me give you some insight into my personal management style. When I hire staff members I look for the best talent available. I hire better than average people and pay them much better than average salaries. I expect longevity and know that an employee that stays long saves me lots of money in the long run. Therefore, the "golden handcuffs" of a generous salary puts the issue of them jumping ship to bed. Most of my programmers are being paid at or above the highest numbers we've bantered here in this forum. The average length of tenure on my staff is over 9 years. However, having said that I do NOT want federal legislation to protect jobs in our industry. What that does is artificially raise salaries for those that don't deserve it. What this does is raise costs. That translates into higher prices to the consumer. There is NOTHING good about salary or job protection in a capitalistic society. It only causes inflation that hurts everybody, even the few who are supposedly being protected. Therefore, even though I don't outsource and even though I don't pay low wages, I will defend the right of others to do so. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Joe Pluta" wrote in message news:6ae8818f.80@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > There is an underlying issue here that I was trying to get at. If employers insist on commoditizing programming skills - that is, insisting on using the cheapest resources, regardless of the effect on the workforce in America - then we will have a significant brain drain. > > If you are instead willing to set certain levels of programming skills, and say "for this job, you get this much", I'll bet you can find many employees willing to work for that rate. But if you insist on American employees undercutting L-1 visa holder or an outsourced developer from China making 10 bucks an hour, then there is no way Americans can compete. > > Is it personal? Perhaps. But unless you personally want IT to go offshore, then you better think about how to fix this situation. > > By the way, some of it will be self-fixing. Outsourcing hasn't yet worked in our industry, and we're seeing that. Also, Indian salaries are rising 15% a year, and they're already having problems staffing jobs with experienced people. If we continue to close the visa loopholes, we may stem the tide somewhat. But by opening our borders to workers from countries whose standard of living is so much lower than our own, then you're in fact embracing a complete destruction of the American economy. Remember, during a leveling process, the top percentage is what gets reduced, or haven't you figured that out yet? > > You talk about the global economy as if it's a good thing, a natural thing, an inevitable thing that you embrace. If so, then you better be willing to live on a standard of living similar to that in Bangalore, because I guarantee the entire world won't get to our level. And when the standard US salary is roughly $12,000, who will buy the DVD players and the designer shoes? > > And finally, if you think that all programming is done in shops that don't use RPG, then you clearly don't understand this entire industry, Brian. Sure, a lot of web development is being done in Java, but Java doesn't do business logic. And talk about personal! To say a 20 year programmer shouldn't be programming anymore is the height of personal prejudice! You owe a lot of people an apology. > > Joe

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                • #98
                  Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                  Joe said: " First off, my number one problem is visas. These do not fit the "global economy" mantra you're quoting. That's because these people are not immigrants, yet they're working on American soil using American equipment to displace American workers." Of course, without such workers you would never be able to afford lettuce, tomatoes, or any other fruit or vegetable. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

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                  • #99
                    Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                    As far as I've been able to read: 1. You're not hiring American workers because they're too expensive. 2. You're not hiring outsourcing firms. I mean, I could be wrong about point one - you might hiring American workers, but just expressing your opinion that they're overpaid and underskilled, but that's not the sense I got from your statements. So who are you hiring? Joe

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                    • Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                      Joe said: "They may not know HTML, but if you put that down as a requirement, I'm sure they can learn it." Ah, but they need to know it now. The HTML and JavaScript requirements have been written on the wall for years. Going into an interview saying, "no, but I can learn it," is the surest way to be eliminated from the hiring process. Joe again incorrectly asserted: "You're willing to teach somebody offshore your business" Show me where I've said that I would hire someone offshore. Or... just shut up about it! chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

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                      • Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                        Joe, You're embarrassing yourself now, Joe. Cut it out, will ya? chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Joe Pluta" wrote in message news:6ae8818f.95@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > Who ARE you hiring? Yuo seem to be saying you're not hiring American workers because they cost too much, and you've specifically stated you're not hiring outsourcing firms. So who are you hiring? Or are you just using this forum to vent your regular mantra that you consider American programmers overpriced and underskilled? > > Joe

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                        • Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                          Joe claimed: "Outsourcing doesn't work" I agree that mostly it doesn't work. There are some success stories so I'm not willing to flat out say it doesn't work. Joe asked: "Have you hired visa programmers?" Not that I know of. I interview people, pass the ones I want to hire onto our loss prevention department, and if I get an OK then I hire them. Joe claimed: "you are trying to find uncommon combinations of skill sets (such as advanced RPG knowledge and web application experience)" Your lack of knowledge of the AS/400 programmer is showing here. I have over 100 resumes from my current programmer search and you're way off base on how common the combination is. I suspect the average RPG programmer knows it's a MUST to be talented in HTML also. Only the small vertical AS/400 shops are RPG-only environments these days. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

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                          • Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                            Joe, I find your replies becoming sadly Incomprehensible. You pick up one phrase out of context and don't let it go. Sorry to say that conversions with you have become unproductive. Bye, chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Joe Pluta" wrote in message news:6ae8818f.92@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > "Make yourself MORE VALUABLE than the competition, e.g. offshore workers, and you will do just fine." > > We still are. It's because you're willing to hire cheap offshore labor that we can't compete. You've already said you won't hire someone who is stepping down in salary, Chuck. Those were YOUR words. So how can they compete? You've locked them out of your shop by your hiring practices. Instead, they'd have to have three, four times the skills of someone offshore. That's not reasonable. > > Tell me what skill set you think would justify an $80,000 a year salary. How about $60,000? Please, statr quantifying and stop using fuzzy phrases. I'm trying to get an answer, not an excuse. > > Joe

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                            • Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                              Joe, It's clear that you haven't been in management. If you had, then you would understand the implications of a manager posting private salary information in a public forum. My condolences. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Joe Pluta" wrote in message news:6ae8818f.92@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > "Make yourself MORE VALUABLE than the competition, e.g. offshore workers, and you will do just fine." > > We still are. It's because you're willing to hire cheap offshore labor that we can't compete. You've already said you won't hire someone who is stepping down in salary, Chuck. Those were YOUR words. So how can they compete? You've locked them out of your shop by your hiring practices. Instead, they'd have to have three, four times the skills of someone offshore. That's not reasonable. > > Tell me what skill set you think would justify an $80,000 a year salary. How about $60,000? Please, statr quantifying and stop using fuzzy phrases. I'm trying to get an answer, not an excuse. > > Joe

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                              • Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                                Joe, Refresh my memory. Wasn't it you who urged us to go to our legislature and have them get involved in the visa issue? chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Joe Pluta" wrote in message news:6ae8818f.99@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > "However, having said that I do NOT want federal legislation to protect jobs in our industry." > > Um. When in ALL of my posts, my entire article, or in any place on the planet have I asked for legislation to protect jobs????? > > Joe

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