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Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

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  • #16
    Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

    Joe Pluta wrote: And unless management has some sense of loyalty to the American workers. . . . You have an interesting sense of humor Joe. Dave

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    • #17
      Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

      You win some: Near-shore outsourcing strategy to create 175 Canadian jobs. And you lose some Sun Life CIO: Keep an eye on offshore. It is safe to say however, that what succeeds in the US will become a top business priority in Canada.

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      • #18
        Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

        One of the sad effects of this whole business is that by shipping tech jobs overseas, American enterprises are training and funding economic and, in some cases, geopolitical and military competitors. This doesn't seem very smart to me. Isn't technical leadership a trump card in the balance of power game?

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        • #19
          Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

          I agree with most of what's been said above. Especially the security concerns. I hate to think of my SS# and CC#s being in the hands of a clerk in another country where it might be next to impossible for me to file a lawsuit. And most of you seem to agree that total protectionism is not a good idea, but the idea of protecting our jobs still creeps into our arguments. Protecting local jobs has it's place, but it is no longer a US economy. It's a world economy. If we can't produce a product at a reasonable price, then we need to find another business to get in. Japan, decades ago, said that manufacturing was a temporary solution for them. They recognized that eventually new upcoming nations would produce a product similar in quality at a lower price and run them out of business. They then said they needed to be in the business of information. Not sure how successful they are being at this at the moment, but it's a valid point. If we prop up a particular industry that has offshore competition, have we really helped ourselves in the long run? Shouldn't we work towards providing products/services that we excel in so the world will buy from us because it's the best value? However, we cannot keep every industry here forever. If we are reasonable with our demands to our government (as David Abramowitz suggests in his first post above) we can accomplish much more in the long run. It's up to each of us to position ourselves in an industry where we think it is providing a needed service to the world. If we simply keep all our industries here, we won't be exporting, we won't have an income, the country goes broke. Remember, I am NOT trying to negate the concerns about data security and quality of product from sending data processing offshore. I just want to make sure that when I complain about jobs leaving the US, that I have valid reasons for thinking they should stay.

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          • #20
            Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

            That's fine if I'm competing against another American, Chuck. Not if I have to compete against the entire world's standard of living, which is what the visas in particular do. Joe

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            • #21
              Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

              Joe, Do you have examples of that? chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Joe Pluta" wrote in message news:6ae8818f.3@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > Somebody brought up an interesting point: American workers often have a tough time getting their employers to let them telecommute, but those same employers have no problem shipping work to someone on another continent. > > Joe

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              • #22
                Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                Joe, I'm sorry, but in a global economy it doesn't work that way. Protecting a segment of American jobs will only cause other countries to counter attack with their own sanctions. We're seeing the repercussions today with our protection of the antiquated steel industry. Why can't I take your provincial logic one step further and say that because housing costs are so high in California we need to protect California's programmer jobs. No resident from another state should be allowed to compete for a programmer's position. After all, we gotta protect our entitlements, eh? I don't buy your protectionism argument. A house built on government sanctions or protection laws only creates an uncompetitive U.S. economy that will eventually collapse and drive more people out of work. In order for the U.S. to stay strong it MUST compete globally. Any provincial thinking only creates a nightmare for the next generation. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Joe Pluta" wrote in message news:6ae8818f.18@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > That's fine if I'm competing against another American, Chuck. Not if I have to compete against the entire world's standard of living, which is what the visas in particular do. > > Joe

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                • #23
                  Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                  I just got one in email. The person understandably isn't keen on making their name or that of their employer public, so I can't use it as an ironclad example. However, the issue of telecommuting has been a long sticking point in our industry. Joe

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                  • #24
                    Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                    Joe, Unfortunately, it's a sticking point for a lot of companies. Fortunately, my company isn't one of them. I have a full time programmer on my staff that lives 1,000 miles from the office. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Joe Pluta" wrote in message news:6ae8818f.21@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > I just got one in email. The person understandably isn't keen on making their name or that of their employer public, so I can't use it as an ironclad example. However, the issue of telecommuting has been a long sticking point in our industry. > > Joe

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                    • #25
                      Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                      It's not protectionism. I'm not asking for tariffs, or subsidies. I'm asking the government to get out of the picture, and stop directly subsidizing the replacement of American jobs with foreign workers through the visa programs. Notice that my biggest complaint is visas, not outsourcing per se. It's my opinion that outsourcing is largely self-limiting, but that the visa programs, which are currently employing hundreds of thousands of foreign laborers at the expense of American jobs, are unfair because there are no downsides for corporations to replace an American with someone whose standard of living is so much lower than that of an American. The only way this can work is if Americans have the same standard of living as all other people on the planet. And if that's your goal, Chuck, then you're free to it. Joe

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                      • #26
                        Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                        I posted a link to this article on a Java site heavily trafficked by a global development community. The response from some folks was, as you might guess, somewhat less than cordial . But some of the comments surprised even me. One of my favorites is the comment that "Who Wipro puts on a project is NONE of the client's business." I've invited the posters there to come here and post their views, but I don't know if they will be inclined to do so. So, in the interest of fairness, I'm posting a link to their comments here: http://saloon.javaranch.com/cgi-bin/...37&t=002013&p= Feel free to hop over and take a look at opposing viewpoints. Chuck, you might be interested in what they have to say! Joe

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                        • #27
                          Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                          Chuck, Will you be hiring a qualified US citizen who applied for the job? I'll be shocked if you say "no", considering the plethora of unemployed IT people, especially in California. Surely there's one talented iSeries programmer in the LA area with American citizenship. Or will you be bringing someone in with a H-1B and L-1 visa? Just curious. Chris

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                          • #28
                            Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                            Joe, Ok, I see your argument. Now, I have to ask this question (because I don't know the answer): Do visa programs exist in other countries? In other words, are Americans working in Germany or the UK or Israel on similar visa programs? I would expect the answer to be yes. If the answer is yes, then if we cut our visa programs we should expect other countries to retaliate in kind. Is that fair? I don't know. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Joe Pluta" wrote in message news:6ae8818f.23@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > It's not protectionism. I'm not asking for tariffs, or subsidies. I'm asking the government to get out of the picture, and stop directly subsidizing the replacement of American jobs with foreign workers through the visa programs. > > Notice that my biggest complaint is visas, not outsourcing per se. It's my opinion that outsourcing is largely self-limiting, but that the visa programs, which are currently employing hundreds of thousands of foreign laborers at the expense of American jobs, are unfair because there are no downsides for corporations to replace an American with someone whose standard of living is so much lower than that of an American. > > The only way this can work is if Americans have the same standard of living as all other people on the planet. And if that's your goal, Chuck, then you're free to it. > > Joe

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                            • #29
                              Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                              Chuck Ackerman wrote: Protecting a segment of American jobs will only cause other countries to counter attack with their own sanctions. This is the reminiscent of conversations I have had with some politicos. Particularly when discussing the "L-1" visa situation. They are concerned that American comanies may not be able to bring American employees to work in foreign locations. I have succussfully countered this by pointing out that it is not the elimination of the L-1 visa that is the problem. It is the elimination of program abuse and out and out fraud that will be necessary to level the playing field. I have been able to make inroads by suggesting that the solution is to ensure that spirit of the L-1 program is maintained, and that may be done by allowing the L-1 holder to perform work only for the hiring company. This would prevent the wholesale contracting of L-1 holders to other companies that do not have to declare that they use L-1 workers, because the L-1 workers are employees of some other company. It's kind of wordy, but it works better with charts, graphs, and arrows. Dave

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                              • #30
                                Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                                Chris, To add to your statement, I would point out that it is illegal to "hire" an H1-B holder, if there is as much as one (1) qualified US Citizen or Green Card holder available. This is not true for L-1 holders, but the L-1 holder must already be your firm's employee in another country. Dave

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