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Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

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  • #31
    Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

    I've read all these posts and it seems that this issue is getting more and more complicated. Let me see if I can bring it down to earth. I have been a programmer for 23 years. I have worked all over the country. In the past 10 years, I have been laid off from several positions due to downsizing. I always kept an eye on my old position to make sure I was recalled according to the law. What most of the companies did instead was outsourced the projects. To what companies I don't know but I do know that one of the biggest complaints of the people still at the company was getting the actual programmer to understand what needed to be done and what they were actually saying. We Americans have problems understanding each other so I would inquire as to where the programmer was. The answer was almost always in India. So I have been replaced several times by outsourcing to foreign companies (I say foreign because 90% of the work force do not reside in America). So I've had to ask myself: Have I been overpricing myself? The answer is no. I don't have all the frills (extra cars, large house, etc.) heck I can't even afford to go on vacation. I live paycheck to paycheck. That is what most Americans do. So the arguement that we are overpriced is inaccurate. The problem is simple, companies want to save money and boost profits. The market out there is not what it used to be so the revenues are not up. The only way to make a profit is to reduce costs. The one department that doesn't bring in revenue is IT. So companies look for less expensive labor. Reduce the cost (even if it takes longer for projects to be completed) increases profits. I am upset at being replaced by outsourcing but there really isn't anything we can do about it. It would be nice if American companies would keep there money in the American market place by hiring Americans or at least people residing in America, but they are looking at the bottom line and not where their money is going to. A perfect example is the clothing manufacturing industry. They needed cheap labor and to reduce overhead and improve profits. What happened? sweat shops in 3rd world countries. At least the IT outsourcing isn't violating child labor laws. Anyway, the simple problem is that the cost of living in America has reached a level that Corporate America cannot afford to pay us what we need to simply survive and still make a profit. So they searched elsewhere to find less expensive solutions. They found it in foreign programmers. Do we blame the government for this? I don't think so. Personally I blame the Corporate America who are the ones that created the high cost of living. Think about it, a man sits on an assembly line monitoring a computer that is welding the frame of a vehicle. This man is paid over 40K. Why? Because Corporate America agreed to pay him to do nothing (essentially). Because of that we now are paying what it used to cost for a house for a car now. Corporate America is doing what it has to bring in as much money to so it can go into their pockets ..... it is called capitalism. If we want to keep jobs in America then Corporate America (especially the board member and executives) stop demanding and getting the 100K + bonuses and other perks. Stop our government from using our hard earned money on trips and things they don't need. There was a time that all expenses for our representative came out of contribution and the individual own pockets. Now we pay them way too much money to do nothing but find ways to increase what they get paid. If we reduce both of these then prices will go down because volume of sales will go up because we will have more money. We spend more we then create the need for more jobs. And the cycle continues. I don't like being replaced by someone that doesn't even live in the same country but I don't think I should stop them from trying to earn a living too. There are a lot of IT jobs out there but there could be more for us if Corporate America would give us hard working people who just want to support our families a chance to do just that. Okay I didn't make it simple, I started venting a little because of my own experiences. Joe your article was great. It opened a can of worms that has needed to be openned for years now. If the executives would simply open their eyes and hear the cries of us to be employeed in positions that we can feel safe at not being replaced by the cheaper labor they will see a very high quality of work and see that in the long term we will save them more money.

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    • #32
      Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

      As David points out, you cannot by law hire a visa holder unless no qualified citizen or green card holder can be found. The world is not your talent pool, America is. Joe

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      • #33
        Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

        Chris, I will be hiring the best qualified candidate for the job. I use very little discrimination in any of the qualifications for the job. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Chris Ringer" wrote in message news:6ae8818f.26@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > Chuck, > > Will you be hiring a qualified US citizen who applied for the job? I'll be shocked if you say "no", considering the plethora of unemployed IT people, especially in California. Surely there's one talented iSeries programmer in the LA area with American citizenship. Or will you be bringing someone in with a H-1B and L-1 visa? Just curious. > > Chris

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        • #34
          Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

          David, I agree with you that it is always good to fight fraud. As a retailer, we spend a fortune on loss prevention, i.e. fraud, and it would do the government well to spend money on fraud. Frankly, I'm more concerned about identity theft than losing my job to a company that is fraudulently hiring employees. Therefore, I'd rather see the government spend more money on stopping identity theft than hiring fraud. IMO, of course. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "David Abramowitz" wrote in message news:6ae8818f.27@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > Chuck Ackerman wrote: Protecting a segment of American jobs will only cause other countries to counter attack with their own sanctions. > > This is the reminiscent of conversations I have had with some politicos. Particularly when discussing the "L-1" visa situation. They are concerned that American comanies may not be able to bring American employees to work in foreign locations. > > I have succussfully countered this by pointing out that it is not the elimination of the L-1 visa that is the problem. It is the elimination of program abuse and out and out fraud that will be necessary to level the playing field. I have been able to make inroads by suggesting that the solution is to ensure that spirit of the L-1 program is maintained, and that may be done by allowing the L-1 holder to perform work only for the hiring company. This would prevent the wholesale contracting of L-1 holders to other companies that do not have to declare that they use L-1 workers, because the L-1 workers are employees of some other company. > > It's kind of wordy, but it works better with charts, graphs, and arrows. > > Dave

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          • #35
            Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

            Glen said: "Personally I blame the Corporate America who are the ones that created the high cost of living. Think about it, a man sits on an assembly line monitoring a computer that is welding the frame of a vehicle. This man is paid over 40K. Why? Because Corporate America agreed to pay him to do nothing (essentially). Because of that we now are paying what it used to cost for a house for a car now." However, it's entirely possible that Glen pointed to Corporate America when maybe, just maybe, he should have pointed to organized labor. Here in Southern California we have grocery workers on strike. Imagine, if you will, that these are people who earn in the neighborhood of $20 per hour and get ALL medical benefits, including dependent coverage, FOR FREE. What do they do? They scan barcodes all day long. (Yes, I know, they have to memorize the SKU number for bananas so one might argue that there is some skill in the job.) Yet they go on strike. Why? Because organized labor has convinced them that when the grocery store says that medical costs are too high and the employee should kick in $20/month for their fair share they are being cheated. (It really irks me since I pay about $800/ month for the same insurance but never once thought of complaining. I know that if I don't like it I can move on.) So, it's not just corporate America, it's often organized labor that has convinced minimum wage earners that they are entitled to two SUVs and 3 ATVs. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

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            • #36
              Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

              Joe, Actually, my pool is relatively limited. My loss prevention department will do a background check on each possible new hire. Many don't pass the check. The background check includes legality of employment among many other things. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Joe Pluta" wrote in message news:6ae8818f.32@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > As David points out, you cannot by law hire a visa holder unless no qualified citizen or green card holder can be found. The world is not your talent pool, America is. > > Joe

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              • #37
                Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                The prevailing wisdom of the posts on JavaRanch are that all consulting companies hire newbies, that newbies work on projects and are not billed, they are "Shadow Resources" that never show up in billing and in general are overseen by experienced individuals. The idea is that if you hire an outsourcing company, you know that in advance, and that's why you pay less. And if the project fails, you knew the risks. That is just a risk of outsourcing, and why it is cheaper. "In fact, I will say even if [a newbie] is the only person working on the client's project, thats none of the client's business. At the end of the day, if the job is not done, market forces will determine who survives and who does not. THIS IS A RISK OF OUTSOURCING. Companies that outsource, take into account such risks." (emphasis not added) The people over there don't want to come here and post, so I encourage you to instead go over there and read the discussion (better known as Joe against the World ). The only person from here who posted there was Dan, who basically commented that I was defending my position too vigorously. Joe

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                • #38
                  Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                  Chuck Ackerman asked: Do visa programs exist in other countries? Yes, but (TTBOMK) they are far more restrictive, far more selective, and are usually (but not always - see oil rig workers) reserved for executive workers. As a poor example, I had a Canadian company for a client, and almost all of my work was done at a US office. I would go to the Toronto office about once a month for a day or two, but that would be it. On more than one occasion I was stopped at customs, and questioned for a bit, but then allowed to pass. I did not require a visa because the stay was never longer than a business week. As a better example, listen to stories of those that work abroad on a regular basis. Dave

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                  • #39
                    Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                    ctibodoe wrote: > Anyway > to make my point: how does outsourcing a major project(saving the > corp money today, driving its stock up), benefit the corp two years > from now when the project is overdue, and either hopelessly bungled > or severely crippled in function, now driving the stock down, and as > a plus the corp is behind the competion, the CEO is fired or worse in > court. Am I missing something or imagining something that isn't there > or is Wall Street destroying our commerce in the long run. Anyway, > can't say I understand, but often don't like what I see. The faults in your argument are that outsourcing a major project will fail and/or that not-outsourcing a major project will succeed. Bill

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                    • #40
                      Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                      Joe, If you're looking for examples, you may want to more specifically define what you are looking for. For instance: many companies successfully outsource their Payroll processing to companies such as ADP. I'm sure Perot Systems has successfully outsourced projects since that's their whole reason for being. If you are really asking for outsourcing offshore, then that's different. A quick google of the phrase "outsource project success" brought this first example: http://www.outsourcing-russia.com/su...023&story=0002 Bill

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                      • #41
                        Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                        I was just venting with more emotions than facts. I can attest to major projects failing that are 100% home grown. I seem to be out of the ballpark anyway. I do know (fact) a new VP of the Western Hemisphere that came from an AS/400 background, replaced multi AS/400's and all the American staff, with another platform and a horde of programmers in a South American country, because "the AS/400 may be better, but it doesn't make the corp. look modern ($) to potential buyers and the price of programmers down there is real cheap. " So, from the horse's mouth, the decision was made based on the percieved value of the corp., not the value of the corp. or is it the same thing. But, in the end, the corp. just let the VP go for a younger sexier model, and it seems to me ( not sure if fact ) that the VP was probably brought in to make sure the transition of the AS/400's out of the door would go smoothly. Anyway, I don't claim to be an expert or know anything in particular, I just have alot of questions.

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                        • #42
                          Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                          Chuck Ackerman wrote: > Here in Southern California we have grocery workers on strike. > Imagine, if you will, that these are people who earn in the > neighborhood of $20 per hour and get ALL medical benefits, including > dependent coverage, FOR FREE. What do they do? They scan barcodes > all day long. (Yes, I know, they have to memorize the SKU number for > bananas so one might argue that there is some skill in the job.) Yet > they go on strike. Why? Because organized labor has convinced them > that when the grocery store says that medical costs are too high and > the employee should kick in $20/month for their fair share they are > being cheated. (It really irks me since I pay about $800/ month for > the same insurance but never once thought of complaining. I know > that if I don't like it I can move on.) > > So, it's not just corporate America, it's often organized labor that > has convinced minimum wage earners that they are entitled to two SUVs > and 3 ATVs. Geez Chuck, you sure have a simplistic outlook on other workers. $20 an hour is the top of the ladder, new hires are about $8. The workers gave up some wage concessions in order to have all their med paid, so why not offer your employer a reduced wage demand if they'll agree to pay all of your medical costs? Oh and that $20 a month is for a single employee and the absolute bottom option in coverage with it's requisite high deductibles and larger co-pays and limited Physician participation - is that what you have Chuck? Bill

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                          • #43
                            Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                            Joe, I must say that your last post here seems to objectively state the people's opinions from the other forum, maybe better than your first one. Maybe I judged you too harshly. I'll still have to somewhat stand behind my statements, however. I definitely agree with most of what you have said. I just feel that you discounted other's views a little too blithely. Not that you didn't listen or try to be fair. You did. I just felt you were passionate about what you felt and it caused you to overlook some of the points other's were making. Please note, overall I think you are objective, well spoken and listen well. (I also agree with most of what you say, but that's not the point) BUT, since my response was originally made in the other forum, I think I'll leave any other comments for over there. -dan "My programs don't have bugs, they just develop random features."

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                            • #44
                              Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                              Check this one out: http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/biztech....ap/index.html AUSTIN, Texas (AP) -- After an onslaught of complaints, computer maker Dell Inc. has stopped using a technical support center in India to handle calls from its corporate customers.

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                              • #45
                                Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                                Actually, Bill, I'm trying to stay on point here - I'm looking for the successful outsourcing of either: 1. An internal data processing department responsible for the day to day maintenance of a live ERP-level application suite, like any of the 1000's of iSeries sites worldwide. 2. An entire iSeries business application development project of mid- to high-level complexity, with several hundred screens, reports, and online transaction processing programs. I'd like to know how these projects fared as opposed to using American workers. I'd also like to know if they hit their target dates, were on budget and had acceptable error rates. Specifically on the development project, I'd like to know how long such a project has been in production, and how flexible and easy to change it is. The idea is that outsourcing is cheaper than American labor. I want to see some example of how that is so. Most of the "success stories" I read on the site you mentioned were primarily consulting gigs in testing or web development, and the first one I looked up (MedWizard for Millenium Pharmaceuticals), I could find no mention of it at Millenium's website. That doesn't mean they didn't do the work, of course, but I'm looking for something a little more substantial. Joe

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