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Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

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  • #76
    Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

    You should really send this story to Laura Karmatz over at Time Magazine (laura_karmatz@timeinc.com), David. This is just the sort of information she is looking for. Joe

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    • #77
      Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

      However, the real answer is that you will hire the cheapest person available for your position without regard to what it does to the industry. You simply are looking for the lowest bidder, and you are willing to take someone offshore to do it.
      That's how business works - it moves towards the most efficient use of resources (aka the cheapest way to get something done). As long as the economy is global, offshore or not is irrelevant to many of those making the decisions. Competition demands efficiency.
      You are part of the problem, Chuck.
      I'd say that's needlessly personal, Joe. Regarding the scenario of the 20 year industry veteran RPG programmer vs. the Java certified person, the RPG programmer is, of course, worth less to a company that doesn't develop in RPG. The point being that current, relevant skills are as important in many scenarios as is experience in a technical position. Perhaps the 20 year person shouldn't be programming any more, if they've got good industry-specific skills. If they don't, then they aren't worth as much, because they haven't kept current. My $.02. Brian

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      • #78
        Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

        There is an underlying issue here that I was trying to get at. If employers insist on commoditizing programming skills - that is, insisting on using the cheapest resources, regardless of the effect on the workforce in America - then we will have a significant brain drain. If you are instead willing to set certain levels of programming skills, and say "for this job, you get this much", I'll bet you can find many employees willing to work for that rate. But if you insist on American employees undercutting L-1 visa holder or an outsourced developer from China making 10 bucks an hour, then there is no way Americans can compete. Is it personal? Perhaps. But unless you personally want IT to go offshore, then you better think about how to fix this situation. By the way, some of it will be self-fixing. Outsourcing hasn't yet worked in our industry, and we're seeing that. Also, Indian salaries are rising 15% a year, and they're already having problems staffing jobs with experienced people. If we continue to close the visa loopholes, we may stem the tide somewhat. But by opening our borders to workers from countries whose standard of living is so much lower than our own, then you're in fact embracing a complete destruction of the American economy. Remember, during a leveling process, the top percentage is what gets reduced, or haven't you figured that out yet? You talk about the global economy as if it's a good thing, a natural thing, an inevitable thing that you embrace. If so, then you better be willing to live on a standard of living similar to that in Bangalore, because I guarantee the entire world won't get to our level. And when the standard US salary is roughly $12,000, who will buy the DVD players and the designer shoes? And finally, if you think that all programming is done in shops that don't use RPG, then you clearly don't understand this entire industry, Brian. Sure, a lot of web development is being done in Java, but Java doesn't do business logic. And talk about personal! To say a 20 year programmer shouldn't be programming anymore is the height of personal prejudice! You owe a lot of people an apology. Joe

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        • #79
          Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

          It really doesn't take much to get a handle on what is considered "average" in various parts of the country. Just get a link from this site to one of the Nate Viall surveys. You could also look at http://www.monster.com or http://www.dice.com or http://www.net-temps.com or one of many other fine job search sites. Many of the prospective employers post potential payments. It is not an exaggeration to say, that in quite a few instances, the compensation for "senior" personnel is less than I was earning twenty years ago! Dave

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          • #80
            Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

            Brian Singleton wrote: That's how business works - it moves towards the most efficient use of resources (aka the cheapest way to get something done). As long as the economy is global, offshore or not is irrelevant to many of those making the decisions. Competition demands efficiency I might actually agree with you bur for the fact that the company using the services of an outsourcer never actually knows the quality or quantity of the people who actually do the work. The company receiving the services relies on the outsourcer to do the hires. The pity is that most executives making such a decision have so much of their own career invested in the decision, that a positive spin will be put on the outsourcing effort, whether or not it is actually "cheaper", or even successful. In the old days, the joke was that you might hire a secretary who does shorthand, but it takes her twice as long! The fact of the matter is that a successful outsourcing effort requires a great deal more management than in-house development. Without the necessary oversight, and the cost associated with it, the outsourcing effort will fail. According to all the braintrusts, that is precisely why outsourcing does not work most of the time. Do you need change for the deuce? Dave

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            • #81
              Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

              Aye carumba - I guess I stepped into it, didn't I? One of these days, I'll learn to keep my mouth shut. :-)

              You talk about the global economy as if it's a good thing, a natural thing, an inevitable thing that you embrace.
              Show me where I said that, since it's counter to my beliefs. However, the global economy is now reality, like it or not.

              Remember, during a leveling process, the top percentage is what gets reduced, or haven't you figured that out yet?
              I'm not stupid, and I have figured that out. Since we're at the top of the global heap for the time being, I'm still trying to figure out how globalization helps us. One group I can think of that it helps is those looking for cheap labor, but that certainly isn't the majority of us.

              The one thing I cling to to keep things in perspective is the belief that if you protect an industry, then you perhaps forfeit progress. For example, if we threw up bigger barriers to protect the steel or auto industry in the 70's, we'd most likely produce more steel than we do now. But is that the best thing we can do? I'd rather use our national resources to build more advanced things (spaceships, figuratively speaking) than to make steel. Cuz if we don't, someone else will. I know that's little solace for the steel worker who's losing a job, but on the larger scale, that's the direction I'd rather head as a nation. And that's the direction our leaders have chosen. And aren't we, in the end, responsible for our leaders?

              Call me elitist or an idealist, but if I were dictator, I'd rather have the best and the brightest programmers working for us, making things that will amaze the world and give us competitive advantage. If some types of programming are relegated to commodity status and able to be obtained for a low price, then so be it. The world progresses. The super-tough part of that is deciding where and how to draw the line, and that's not something I can say much about. I do understand how tough it is to embrace constant change and constant growth, but that's the world we live in, unless we decide to change it.

              I know - what I said above doesn't help those who are being outsourced. And it doesn't answer the questions of globalism vs. protectionism. It's just my thoughts on how we might gain out of all this as a nation. I'm still trying to figure out the rest. And I won't be put in a position of defending globalization, since that's not my belief. I'm still trying to understand it, in the big picture.

              But by opening our borders to workers from countries whose standard of living is so much lower than our own, then you're in fact embracing a complete destruction of the American economy.
              I embrace legal, permanent immigration as our nation has for 200+ years. We need fresh blood to keep us on our toes! But perhaps that's not what you meant. I don't like exporting talent - we need to be an importer of talent. I'd like to think we can skim the cream off the top, because the best and the brightest from other countries see America as a place where they can succeed to their full potential. As long as we keep that, we keep our edge. And our education system better be the best in the world, too. But that's a subject for another thread. I'll skip your baiting last paragraph, since you seemed to have missed my original point and twisted my words. Let's talk about ideas and solutions, not about each other.

              Thanks for the great, thought-provoking article!

              Brian

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              • #82
                Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                I just looked at Nate Viall, and a Midrange Programmer V, the highest level midrange programmer, is looking at $75-95K in my area (Chicago). That's certainly much higher than we're seeing, and more than Chuck is willing to pay. What I want to know is at what point will employers like Chuck make jobs available to Americans? Or is he simply going to ship the job to the lowest bidder, regardless of the effect on the US economy? It's really not a difficult question. Joe

                Comment


                • #83
                  Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                  First off, my number one problem is visas. These do not fit the "global economy" mantra you're quoting. That's because these people are not immigrants, yet they're working on American soil using American equipment to displace American workers. This is a far cry from outsourcing, and it is only enabled through intervention from our Congress. Congress can close those loopholes it opened, and that's the first mandatory step. I'm not asking for protectionism. I'm asking for the removal of artificial inducements to hiring non-citizens to replace American workers. If you don't agree on this point, that's a separate issue. I don't think we need protectionism on outsourcing. As we've seen in the case of Dell, outsourcing doesn't work for everything. And frankly, I'm pretty comfortable that once industries realize the actual costs associated with outsourcing (time zone issues, language issues, quality control issues, expertise issues), and as Indian salaries rise, the incentive to offshore will lessen considerably, except in the case of buddy deals like the one David pointed out. You see, I'm not protectionist. I want to wipe out the unsupportable Congressional incentives to replacing American workers with cheap non-citizen labor. If we eradicate the visa policies, it is my belief that the outsourcing will never go beyond simple web applications and desktop projects. I know what developing software, real application software, requires, and I have yet to see a successful example of it being outsourced. I didn't miss your point. You missed mine. Visas are bad, and must be stopped. Their original reason for being, if it was ever valid, is certainly not valid any longer. On the other side of the coin, if people like Chuck insist on hiring the lowest bidder, then they are contributing to the destruction of an entire generation of expertise - expertise that will not come back. If you think a newbie out of Bangalore university has a clue what an MRP gen is, or a physical inventory, or a three-way match, you're sadly mistaken. And yes, they're cheap short-term, but when your code stops working and your orders start backing up and you find yourself spending three hours on the phone explaining what an RMA is, then you'll see what you got for your dollars. Since when does the ability to understand Java syntax have anything to do with application development skill? >>sigh<< Joe

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                  • #84
                    Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                    Joe, The problem is that it is a global economy. If our IT industry (or ANY industry) can't provide the services at a competitive rate, then we either have to lower our prices or go into another business. Granted, there are many valid arguments that in many (most?) cases, the decisions being made to outsource overseas are done in an uninformed maner, based only on dolloars instead of ROI. But THAT is what we should address to business leaders. If they make informed decisions, then the legislation isn't needed. (I'm refering to outsourcing overseas, not to visas. That's another, more complex issue). If in the end, another country CAN provide a quality product for a competitive rate, we in this country have two choices: 1) Get another job that we CAN do competitively in the global economy, or 2) lower our standard of living. When we look at the standard of living world wide, we in the USA are so far above average that it's hard to imagine that we can sustain the standard of living we have now, indefinately. My opinion is that we will have to do both. Or rather, we will have no choice but to: 1) accept a lower standard of living than we have have for the past 6 decades. To keep that from being TOO drastic, we MUST 2) work towards finding industries that we can sell on the world market. Legislating or way into keeping jobs here in-country is just delaying the inevitable and making the end result worse than facing it now. Basically, whenever I hear arguments using "standard-of-livivg" to prove that overseas competition is unfair, I think the person saying that just doesn't get reality. The reason we have a high standard is because we get paid that much. The other countries are getting paid better now, and that is what will help THEM raise THEIR standard of living. They are just now doing what we have been successful at for decades. Why should we think that is unfair? We should limit our complaints to decisions being made that are wrong based on ROI, security, and the like, and quit using arguments that make it sound like we think we (the USA) and ONLY we are entitled to a high standard of living. -dan

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                    • #85
                      Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                      Joe, I love the way you put words into my mouth. You simply have no idea what I'm willing to pay. The only discuss we've had on pay is my theoretical example of a $65k position where a $95k person applied. I suspect that maybe you should do some objective reading and not try to stretch things to fit your argument. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Joe Pluta" wrote in message news:6ae8818f.84@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > I just looked at Nate Viall, and a Midrange Programmer V, the highest level midrange programmer, is looking at $75-95K in my area (Chicago). That's certainly much higher than we're seeing, and more than Chuck is willing to pay. > > What I want to know is at what point will employers like Chuck make jobs available to Americans? Or is he simply going to ship the job to the lowest bidder, regardless of the effect on the US economy? It's really not a difficult question. > > Joe

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                      • #86
                        Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                        I did read the article a while back, but I was commenting on the some of the comments made in this thread, and on the big picture of outsourcing and globalization in general. I totally agree with you on visas! As I said (in many more words) in my last post, we need to be the best and attract and keep the best! Re: outsourcing...Companies that do things on the cutting edge of cheap get what they pay for and lose in the long run. I've got recent experience with that. MRP gen, phy. inv, and three-way matches (what's that? [grin]) can be taught/learned, so I personally wouldn't count on that for safety. People are smart, and if there's a big benefit to doing so, they'll iron out the kinks and make things work, eventually. Perhaps not, but I wouldn't bet against it. Later! Brian <--- loves a lively, smart discussion!

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                        • #87
                          Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                          Joe, I posted the above AFTER reading your post that your article was mainly about visa's. Just to clarify, I was responding to the statements made about outsourcing. And since I've been throwing my opinions around in this room, the outsourcing seems to be what most everyone else was talking about. If I decide I have the stamina for it, maybe I'll tackle the visa problem next...

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                          • #88
                            Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                            Joe, You really are reaching here, eh? How do you make the leap from ANY of my comments that I'm not loyal to my workers? I actually have one of the best retention records of any manager around. In fact, I've had a number of programmers follow me from place to place. Two, of which, work for me at this moment have worked with me at 3 previous employers. I am loyal to my workers and pay them well. $90k is just average here in So. Cal. If you're talented, expect to earn more. Joe said:"now you're saying that if somebody made more money in the past but is willing to reduce their salary requirements, you still won't hire them." Then Joe proved my point by saying: "Who do you know that wouldn't move if a $90K position shows up?" My answer to the prior question is "yes." If they're willing to cut their salary by 30% (as in my example) it's pretty clear that they are just using me as a parking place. I don't want that kind of employee. Joe said: "Because basically you want all your work done by grunt labor so that you can pay them the minimum without worrying about them getting better jobs." Another leap. In ALL of my discussions about pay vs. skills I have ALWAYS claimed that if you keep your skills up and make yourself valuable you will find commensurate work. My gripe is about those that do the same thing day after day, never improving their skills, only knowing RPG III, not knowing HTML or JavaScript and then gripe like hell when they're laid off and can't find new work. It's all about competition in our capitalistic society and that includes labor. Keep competitive and flexible everything will work out. Stay stale and rusty and you will pay the price for it. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

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                            • #89
                              Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                              Joe said: "Your only statement is to "learn more skills", even though they are already highly skilled." First, I find it hard to believe that that is my ONLY statement. Second, "highly skilled" and valuable skills may be entirely different things. Somebody that can program in CPM Basic is highly skilled, but who cares? Joe said: "The comparison I offered was for a skilled RPG veteran who has also taken Java courses." This person has been lead down the wrong path by IBM. The Java courses are a niche skill and won't do much in the mainstream world. Learing HTML, Javascript and ASP are mainstream skills that an RPG programmer would do well to learn. I have no use for Java trained personnel. Joe claimed, incorrectly: "However, the real answer is that you will hire the cheapest person available for your position" Joe also claimed, correctly:"without regard to what it does to the industry." I care not for the industry. I care for my employer and the welfare of my employees. The industry is something contrived by vendors. Joe also made factual errors when he stated: "You simply are looking for the lowest bidder, and you are willing to take someone offshore to do it." I've never hired someone offshore and don't have any plans to do so. It would be a logistical nightmare for me and my company. What I DID say, please go back and reread my statements, is that there is nothing wrong with competition and we should not legislate high salaries. Joe again read only half my statements by stating: "you're just telling everybody they have to undercut everybody else, including people from other countries whose standard of living is one sixth of ours." Sigh, let me s-p-e-l-l it out clearly since you seem to have trouble understanding. Make yourself MORE VALUABLE than the competition, e.g. offshore workers, and you will do just fine. If you are better than the competition you will win. If you aren't better and it requires you to undercut them, then so be it. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

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                              • #90
                                Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                                "Make yourself MORE VALUABLE than the competition, e.g. offshore workers, and you will do just fine." We still are. It's because you're willing to hire cheap offshore labor that we can't compete. You've already said you won't hire someone who is stepping down in salary, Chuck. Those were YOUR words. So how can they compete? You've locked them out of your shop by your hiring practices. Instead, they'd have to have three, four times the skills of someone offshore. That's not reasonable. Tell me what skill set you think would justify an $80,000 a year salary. How about $60,000? Please, statr quantifying and stop using fuzzy phrases. I'm trying to get an answer, not an excuse. Joe

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