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Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

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  • Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

    Bill, I'd respond but your post isn't lucid. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Bill" wrote in message news:970DB6A16F013E4A33FA3EA769FE97B1@in.WebX.Wawy ahGHajS... > Bill wrote: > > Chuck is looking for a programmer and is surprised that some people > > who have worked at rates higher than what he might pay, or what he > > puts at their worth bothered to send in a resume. (I can't tell the > > scenario since I haven't seen the advertisement and whether or not > > salary was mentioned in the ad). > > Ah, I've just seen one of his ads and it doesn't mention salary anywhere. > So, his 28 years of management experience tells him that someone who > recently worked for $95k won't work for $65k for long. A valid presumption > back before and during the Y2K era, but again, runs contrary to what he > says in other discussions and especially denies the reality of the > workplace as he has described it. > >

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    • Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

      This pretty much echoes what I have been saying: http://www.mcpressonline.com/mc?1@23...T.17@.6ae61001 that the dearth of IT jobs is platform neutral. In fact the greater the skill set and experience, the more likely it is that you may be found "overqualified". Dave

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      • Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

        Chuck: "Therefore, almost no one is too expensive if they've got the skills to back them up." Chuck: "It matters not whether your competition is the guy two doors down from you or 2 continents down. You will, and should, always be compared to anyone else who can complete the same tasks." Chuck: "I DID state in an earlier post that the 7+ year experienced programmer would command in a range of $65k to $95k. Possibly more if the circumstances were correct. Did you miss that post?" Chuck: "If they're willing to cut their salary by 30% (as in my example) it's pretty clear that they are just using me as a parking place." Chuck: "Most of my programmers are being paid at or above the highest numbers we've bantered here in this forum." See, the problem is I can't figure out what you're saying among all the contradictory rhetoric. You also said American workers are overpaid. Yet now you say someone "would command" a salary in the range of $65K-$90K (although I couldn't find that post). You say your programmers get more than that. Are you now saying that American pay scales are correct? That they don't have to compete with the $25/hour expert from Bangalore? Or is it that all your RPG programmers are HTML/ASP experts as well? I don't know, Chuck. I just don't understand your comments. It seems that according to you the only programmer worth his salt is someone who learns technologies like HTML and ASP. Of course, in your world Java is useless, but that's so bizarre as to be unanswerable. As close as I can tell, in your opinion, all programmers should be RPG/HTML/ASP gurus making upwards of $90K. That's about as unrealistic a view as I can imagine. Joe

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        • Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

          "I don't base my hiring decision on race, creed, sexual orientation or country of origin. THAT would be unAmerican!" Did you leave out age on purpose? I found it interesting that you said you took two jobs at pay cuts, but won't hire me if I consider taking a pay cut for the privilege of working for you. I have never thought that anybody owed me anything. Something I learned when I had hiring responsibilities in another life, tis better to have someone work for you for a short time if that person is a great worker, instead of having someone work for you for a long time if that person is a mediocre worker, unless you are running a mediocre business. Another thing I found interesting is your feelings towards those grocery workers in your state. Reality lesson: In the last year a married couple that I know very well lived thru this: He, took a 35k pay increase. She took a 25k decrease. He has 7 years experience, she has 23 years experience. If they found themselves in California it seems they would both be unemployable.

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          • Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

            ctiodoe, Get a grip will you? I gave ONE example where a person who made $95 for 10 years applied for a $65k job. Suddenly, many in this forum have leapt to the conclusion that I wouldn't hire someone considering a paycut. A 30% paycut is not logical but that same $95k person would probably do just fine at $85k. It's pretty safe to say that I wouldn't hire people that make oddball leaps in conclusions by quoting a snippet out of context. BTW, I DID accidentally leave out age. But it's a given that in the AS/400 programmer world that if I discriminated on age I wouldn't have ANY candidates. (JK) chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "ctibodoe" wrote in message news:6ae8818f.126@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > "I don't base my hiring decision on race, creed, sexual orientation or country of origin. THAT would be unAmerican!" > > Did you leave out age on purpose? > > I found it interesting that you said you took two jobs at pay cuts, but won't hire me if I consider taking a pay cut for the privilege of working for you. > > I have never thought that anybody owed me anything. > > Something I learned when I had hiring responsibilities in another life, tis better to have someone work for you for a short time if that person is a great worker, instead of having someone work for you for a long time if that person is a mediocre worker, unless you are running a mediocre business. > > Another thing I found interesting is your feelings towards those grocery workers in your state. > > Reality lesson: In the last year a married couple that I know very well lived thru this: He, took a 35k pay increase. She took a 25k decrease. He has 7 years experience, she has 23 years experience. If they found themselves in California it seems they would both be unemployable.

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            • Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

              Joe, I'm beginning to understand why you're having trouble with logic. None of my statements that you quote are contradictory. Here's the bottom line of my comments: Most people who whine are people who have been overpaid for their skills. Once they find themselves unemployed they also discover they can't find another cushy job that will overpay them. This is the entitlement that I have discussed all along. They lose out on new jobs to either better qualified people or lower paid people. I said that if you are competitive and have desirable skills then you will earn what you deserve. I pay people well. But they are ones that deserve it. The whiners and complainers don't get on my staff. Probably the most important skill is attitude. Negative people and those who tend to see grey clouds all the time will have troubles in their career. They either don't last long on a job (you'd be surprised how many resumes I get where a candidate has held 5 or more jobs in the last 10 years) or they end up with a company that doesn't have the guts to fire people. Negativity breeds discontent and it has no place in the workplace. BTW, DO NOT make the leap and claim that I don't tolerate people with different ideas or are willing to state ideas opposite to mine. That is a desirable trait and is completely different than negativity. Negativity is the person that just sits on the sidelines and whines and complains about management and how they have their heads up their butt. This person just wants to spread negativity and is not being constructive, but being destructive. They should find another job where they will be happy but, in reality, they know they can't get the kind of pay they're getting anywhere else. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Joe Pluta" wrote in message news:6ae8818f.125@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > Chuck: "Therefore, almost no one is too expensive if they've got the skills to back them up." > > Chuck: "It matters not whether your competition is the guy two doors down from you or 2 continents down. You will, and should, always be compared to anyone else who can complete the same tasks." > > Chuck: "I DID state in an earlier post that the 7+ year experienced programmer would command in a range of $65k to $95k. Possibly more if the circumstances were correct. Did you miss that post?" > > Chuck: "If they're willing to cut their salary by 30% (as in my example) it's pretty clear that they are just using me as a parking place." > > Chuck: "Most of my programmers are being paid at or above the highest numbers we've bantered here in this forum." > > See, the problem is I can't figure out what you're saying among all the contradictory rhetoric. You also said American workers are overpaid. Yet now you say someone "would command" a salary in the range of $65K-$90K (although I couldn't find that post). You say your programmers get more than that. Are you now saying that American pay scales are correct? That they don't have to compete with the $25/hour expert from Bangalore? Or is it that all your RPG programmers are HTML/ASP experts as well? > > I don't know, Chuck. I just don't understand your comments. It seems that according to you the only programmer worth his salt is someone who learns technologies like HTML and ASP. Of course, in your world Java is useless, but that's so bizarre as to be unanswerable. > > As close as I can tell, in your opinion, all programmers should be RPG/HTML/ASP gurus making upwards of $90K. That's about as unrealistic a view as I can imagine. > > Joe

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              • Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                "Most people who whine are people who have been overpaid for their skills." This is a statement I can understand, especially if you are careful in the definition of "whine". People who are looking for a return to the heydey of the late 90's where people with questionable skillsets could command six-figure incomes are indeed whiners. However, I want to make sure you understand MY point, which is that, while there are always going to be whiners, that is NOT the only case in today's employment market. Because of the pressures of some of the less scrupulous employment firms, through the abuse of visas and/or outsourcing, the American market is severely depressed, and people who want to work, can't. I'm not saying there wasn't room for an adjustment. We were clearly overpaid for the work we were doing. But many of the people I'm talking to are willing to make that adjustment, but are STILL unable to find work. Incidentally, those adjustments are often 30% or more; someone who was used to making $125/hour consulting is lucky to get $75/hour for similar work. The lesser skills, which were still commanding $75/hour, are now reduced to $40-50/hour. These are paycuts nearing 50%. So don't immediately dismiss someone willing to take a 30% paycut - that's a realistic adjustment based on today's economic conditions. In any event, I agree with you that another skillset is desirable. While you don't like Java, I think Java/JSP is a great secondary skill set. For Microsoft shops, ASP.NET (and the whole .NET family) is a good place to learn. And for everybody in our industry, SQL syntax should be a requirement. Personally, I like Java/JSP because all the tools are available for free, and of course it's IBM's direction. You have your own preferred skillset. But don't immediately write off everyone concerned about the visa/outsourcing situation as "whiners". There are legitimate concerns, and they need to be addressed. At the same time, those who are unemployed must consider advancing their skillsets on their own time, and those that don't are going to necessarily find themselves with much more limited employment options. Joe

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                • Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                  Chuck wrote: > Or, you can just look at Monster.com. I advertised for a senior > programmer/analyst a month ago in Monster and the L.A. Times. > I have not, and probably will not, entertain any offers from head hunters. Yeah, I'm on their mail alert system, trying to keep my finger on the pulse of the job market. I honestly can't say I recall seeing your advert, but perhaps my search criteria aren't right. While I agree that internet sites are better than nothing, there are still too many of them. And, just as you don't deal with head hunters, there are plenty of places which don't deal with the web, alas. > I got about 80 resumes in the first week and feel there was > enough good talent there from which to choose. > > I got resumes from all over the country, even all over the world. Surely, > this is something that you should be able to access in Albany. I'm not railing against anyone, especially someone who is actually hiring programmers now - good on you, I say! I'm not against Monster or Dice dot com, I just think there isn't an effort on the part of American programmers to network with each other and with potential employers. I believe that overseas programmers DO have a network they can rely on, and that is one reason they can find jobs. Another reason is the obvious willingness to relocate anywhere. There are plenty of Indian programmers in Singapore, for example. It has been an interesting thread. I read and post through the news group interface, so apparently my ID is somehow masked, or defaults that way in the forum. Sorry for that... I'll need to check my settings on the MC Press web site. --buck calabro

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                  • Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                    What is a person supposed to do with an illogical 30%plus swing in employment offer, when the alternative is unemployment or career change or relocation. What is more logical? To write someone off because of falling into a % bucket, you are probably missing out on some great people. Not trying to be mean spirited, just trying to understand the thinking on the other side of the table. Supply and demand determine salaries and that seems pretty logical. It also seems pretty logical to accept a job at what the market determines at that particular time. Then when the market changes and the employer doesn't, then it seems logical being a logical business participant, to change with the market when your employer doesn't, after all isn't that the way he plays his business. So I still have a lack of understanding about your 30% bucket. I don't understand how you think taking your comment about not considering someone who had a 30% swing in compensation is an oddball leap and not a logical conclusion about your hiring practices, when the person who takes the pay cut or pay increase has logic on his side when he has bills to pay. Age discrimination has affected my situation more than once, I was just curious why you left it out, as it is probably the first one many of us are experiencing. You have had 3 employers since 98, I believe? Does that make you a job hopper? Then the number of employers I have had shouldn't automatically, logically make me one either. Maybe another hiring manager out there will read some of this and at least look a little harder at some of the good people out there who haven't had logical career paths. In today's world, what in the heck is a logical career path. Chuck,I enjoy reading your opinions, even when opposite of mine. And great article Joe, let's enforce our borders, and never stop legal immigration, as I am a result of past immigration. I'm betting not too many of you could pronounce my last name, much less spell it.

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                    • Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                      Joe said: "Because of the pressures of some of the less scrupulous employment firms, through the abuse of visas and/or outsourcing, the American market is severely depressed, and people who want to work, can't." Point well taken. However, I don't agree with the American market being "severely depressed." Employment rates are under 6.5% last I looked and if you look over the last century that's pretty good. Much better than the 70's when, as a kid fresh out of college, I felt I took a wrong turn when I studied computer science. My first fixed rate home mortgage was over 13% and I was thrilled that the rate had just come down. That was depressing! Joe also said: "someone who was used to making $125/hour consulting is lucky to get $75/hour for similar work." There are a couple of comments I can make here. Often, many consultants don't like the everyday grind of an employee's job, they like the excitement of moving from project to project. With that in mind, many employers don't seriously consider those who have been in consulting for many years as candidates for an employee job. Sad, but true. Also, if someone has been making $125/hour that translates into over $250k/year. Yeah, I know, that person may not have worked a total of 2080 hours, but that's the quick math an employer will do when looking at a salary history. So, it'd be a big leap to hire that person for a $90k job. Joe stated: "Personally, I like Java/JSP because all the tools are available for free, and of course it's IBM's direction. You have your own preferred skillset." I tend to shy away from IBM's direction. It can change in a whim. They pushed very hard in the 80s for Topview. Then they abandoned Topview and pushed OS/2 even harder. I've been burned too many times by IBM's 180 degree switches to throw all of my eggs in their basket. I DO know one thing. If you look anywhere for employment opportunities you'll see many more for ASP and .NET than for Java or JSP. Joe suggested: "But don't immediately write off everyone concerned about the visa/outsourcing situation as "whiners". There are legitimate concerns, and they need to be addressed." I tend to ignore those things that I have little control over. It's like the guy that sits in the back of the meeting just complaining and not being productive. Other than write my elected officials and not hire visa candidates there's not much I can do. I'm not going to complain about it to others. Joe said: "At the same time, those who are unemployed must consider advancing their skillsets on their own time, and those that don't are going to necessarily find themselves with much more limited employment options." Well said. I would add that those that don't are foolish daydreamers. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

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                      • Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                        The thing I really enjoy about the forum here is its civility. Even though the conversations can get heated, as they did in this obviously touchy subject, I've seen over and over again that the conversation usually gets back on-track. This is a far cry from some of the other forums on the net. I won't try to guess what it is that makes the MCMagOnline readership different (that could in itself cause another ruckus ) but I am glad for whatever it is. Joe

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                        • Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                          ctibodoe, By closing borders, does that mean US workers not coming into Canada to take Canadian jobs?

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                          • Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                            Ok, Just my opinion. Enforcing Borders: Enforce existing laws, eliminate temporary visa games. I don't believe I said close any borders. I do not, and stated I do not believe in stopping immigration. I do believe in trying to change some of the visa games that are being abused, and I believe it has been stated enough that everyone who is following this knows which ones are being abused. Joe, isn't this what you have been talking about? Visa's should exist to allow special circumstances to be accomodated. If I am the only person that can do 'X' and Canada needs 'X' done, then Canada should be able to utilize me. But if there are alot of 'X' doers who exist in Canada, I should not be allowed to go to Canada and get that project for less money. And if David is the only one who can do 'Y' and USA needs 'Y' done, then USA should be able to utilize David. Not to put any Citizens at a disadvantage in whatever country it is. Because, I believe that the Country belongs to the Citizens. What is infuriating about this is, this is being done to us by our tax paid elected officials. Does Canada play the same games? Is this really a problem for Canada? So if US workers are doing some of this, stop em.

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                            • Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                              "Joe, isn't this what you have been talking about?" Despite the heat and light the conversation generated, that was indeed my primary point: it's not foreign labor (or laborers) that I have a problem with, it's the abuse of the policies. The visas are a sham and have been almost from day one. The outsourcing issue, which was a small part of my article but yet the one that caused the greatest hue and cry, was less my focus. However, subsequent research has showed that this is a problem as well; while the outsourcing firms and employees insist they are capable of generating quality product, there are still issues of the widespread use of complete newbies as well as a more disturbing trend that condones or at least turns a blind eye to lying on resumes. Whatever the truth of these copmlaints, the end result is that we keep hearing of outsourced projects that actually cost more than they would have in house. Again and again I ask for examples of successful outsourced projects in the midrange industry, and I have yet to hear of one. And still IT management insists that this is an intelligent option. It's almost like the Extreme Programming movement, where they claim the gigantic Chrysler C3 project as a victory, yet it was over budget, over schedule, only one third finished, and then completely scrapped. As far as I can tell, at least in our industry, the Outsourcing Emperor is buck naked. Joe

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                              • Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                                "I DO know one thing. If you look anywhere for employment opportunities you'll see many more for ASP and .NET than for Java or JSP." Monster.com For Chicago: ASP OR .NET: 152 jobs, Java or JSP: 221 jobs San Francisco: ASP or .NET: 55 jobs, Java or JSP: 112 jobs Dice.com: For Illinois: ASP or .NET: 162 jobs, Java or JSP: 181 jobs California: ASP or .NET: 873 jobs, Java or JSP: 984 jobs Just a quick scan. Joe

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