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Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

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  • Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

    David said: "If you work for a company which will outsource: 1) Train the new consultants, show management your team leadership skills. If they do not keep you, then it's their lost." I also think we should go beyond the generalizations also. The term outsourcing has been used here in such generic terms as to make it a negative option. Outsourcing can be very good for many reasons. For example, we have retail stores in many states. All of them have at least 14 PCs. There is also a network, routers, broadband connection, etc. in each store. We have only 8 PC support personnel to manage all of the corporate computers including the retail stores. About 2000 PCs in all. We can't possibly cover all of these computers in many states with only 8 people. So, we outsource. Any store that we can't service for routine calls by a daytime drive from the home office is serviced by PC Medic. They do a yoeman's job and they're not employees of our company. By definition, it's an outsource. I realize that in this thread when we referring to outsourcing we're mostly talking about off shore outsourcing. So, let's not generalize and be specific. (After all, the BCS football rankings have everyone losing faith in computers. That's a generalization that grates on my nerves!) chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

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    • Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

      "If you know anything about outsourcing EDI then you KNOW it's cheaper to do it outside. Much of the cost is borne by the vendor. It's considerably cheaper to outsource EDI." I'll take your word for it. But that's not really a development project, per se, then. It's more of a service, like payroll. There's programming involved, I'm sure, but it's not quite the same thing. Joe

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      • Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

        Joe, The Avery solution in China is a completely custom solution requiring lots of development and programming by Avery. 4 of us just spent 3 days in Boston with the Avery development team. I'm not sure what your definition of outsourcing is, it seems to be a moving target. By industry standards, anything that could be done in house but isn't, is considered outsourcing. Certainly when we use ADP for payroll I would consider that an outsourced solution. When we have our PCs serviced by a third party vendor it is outsourcing. When we have a third party write an application that we can't get done quickly enough or don't have enough available in-house resources to do, that is considered outsourcing. Are you then claiming to redefine the term outsourcing? chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Joe Pluta" wrote in message news:6ae8818f.155@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > "If you know anything about outsourcing EDI then you KNOW it's cheaper to do it outside. Much of the cost is borne by the vendor. It's considerably cheaper to outsource EDI." > > I'll take your word for it. But that's not really a development project, per se, then. It's more of a service, like payroll. There's programming involved, I'm sure, but it's not quite the same thing. > > Joe

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        • Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

          David you may be right...programmers in SoCal may earn 65K and up. But when I was there 5 yrs ago 65K-70K was the average but the cost of a home was in the 500K-1mil range. So in comparison the 65K-105K really doesn't mean they can afford the motorhome, any suv, or any extra's. The house payment alone takes most of that. I know there are area's in this country that pay more and pay less. SoCal seems to always pay more because everything (and I do mean everything) is so expensive. Outlandishly expensive. I live in E. Texas now and I can buy a home with 10 acres of land and only spend 90K....you do that in SoCAL and you will be spending 10-20 mil. Now if you want to pay me the 105K and let me work from here....I'm your man.....LOL

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          • Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

            Glen, Generalizations are dangerous. My home value is over $850k yet my house payment is less than the first home I owned in 1980 which cost only $150k. Also stating that "everything is so expensive" is just plain wrong. So Cal is one of the cheapest areas for electronics, cars, fresh produce, most groceries, and any other product that reduces price by volume. I will guarantee you a car dealer that sells 3,000 cars a month, like Longo Toyota does, can make much better deals than a dealer in South Bend, Indiana that sells 15 cars a month. Almost every commodity in So Cal is cheaper than most other places in the country. One item that is NOT cheap are housing. But housing should be treated as an investment. I invested $30k of my own equity in 1980 in a house and now have about $700k of equity. Pretty good return. Probably better than most areas of the country. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Glen Kerner" wrote in message news:6ae8818f.157@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > David you may be right...programmers in SoCal may earn 65K and up. But when I was there 5 yrs ago 65K-70K was the average but the cost of a home was in the 500K-1mil range. > > So in comparison the 65K-105K really doesn't mean they can afford the motorhome, any suv, or any extra's. The house payment alone takes most of that. > > I know there are area's in this country that pay more and pay less. SoCal seems to always pay more because everything (and I do mean everything) is so expensive. Outlandishly expensive. I live in E. Texas now and I can buy a home with 10 acres of land and only spend 90K....you do that in SoCAL and you will be spending 10-20 mil. > > Now if you want to pay me the 105K and let me work from here....I'm your man.....LOL

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            • Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

              Glen said: "I live in E. Texas now and I can buy a home with 10 acres of land and only spend 90K" One thing that is for sure in real estate: you get what you pay for! chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

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              • Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                "Are you then claiming to redefine the term outsourcing?" No, I just don't mean the same thing you do, Chuck. Payroll and PC maintenance are not the issues I'm interested in, nor were they the focus of my article. I was focusing on American midrange developers losing their jobs to offshore outsourcing firms or visa employees. The EDI project as you explain it is a combination of progamming and EDI-specific services, many of which the vendor, since they are an EDI specialist, can provide more cheaply. This is similar to payroll, and doesn't fall into the same category as general application programming. You may not understand my distinction, but since you're the only one insisting on arguing the point, I can comfortably agree to disagree with you. Joe

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                • Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                  I do not know if the writer is american or of any other nationality, but there are some of his points which i couldn't overlook including the satirical cartoon. Please check this web - page. http://maddox.xmission.com/c.cgi?u=walmart http://maddox.xmission.com/c.cgi?u=walmart No, I do not have language of this order but again, it is not the language (how he is trying to say it) but what he is trying to say that caught my attention. I may not agree with all his points and my employer has nothing to do with anything of this. Thanks and Regards, Kaushik.

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                  • Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                    I need to buy vegetables and my local market sells them at around $10 dollars for my week's needs. Hmm.. there is this market in the suburbs where I can buy it all for around $2. Hey, but I cannot do it. The local market guys are getting angry. Since they won't budge from the place or reduce their prices, probably I'd have to shift residence to the suburbs to justify myself???

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                    • Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                      yes, there will be a time when we, with our then higher standards and higher pays, will be bypassed for cheaper locations. It is all a part of life. How well we better the quality of our products till then is what will decide our fate in the race. It IS a race. Obviously, there is a quality AQ and a price AP. There is quality BQ and price BP. As of now, AQ may be les than BQ but AP is much lesser than BP to make outsourcers consider company A over company B.

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                      • Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                        CDR9003, Your comments below are well thought out and appear to be gained from experience. I will add that the way to make yourself indispensable is to be creative, solve problems without being a problem, and make sure your solutions work flawlessly. Be fastidious about your work. If you put a new job into production and it runs at 1am then sign on from home at 1am to see if it works properly. Also, be helpful to your peers and fellow workers. Above all, and this is the MOST important trait, have good customer service skills. Always be courteous and have a sympathetic ear to the end users. Remember this: The only reason you are employed as a programmer is to serve others. If you aren't serving others, or the perception is that you aren't serving them, then you will become dispensable. To make yourself DISPENSABLE, be secretive, be political, be rude to others at the company, make sure you are the only one that knows how to solve specific problems. No manager wants to be held hostage. Good managers want solutions, not political headaches. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "CDR9003" wrote in message news:6ae8818f.164@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > The best way to avoid losing your job to outsourcing is to do your job well. > > Don't force your will on others by telling them they must conform to some minutia that is the coder or design fad of the moment. > > Don't write slop and then use debug to try to figure out why it doesn't work. > > Don't manage in such a way that you are the tail wagging the dog. > > Don't frown on people who look things up, assuming thay already have basic skills. > > Do ask yourself, 'How can this be done better and how can I make myself less indispensible?'

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                        • Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                          kausix, What are you saying? I sense an analogy, but the context didn't quite make it lucid. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "kausix" wrote in message news:6ae8818f.162@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > I need to buy vegetables and my local market sells them at around $10 dollars for my week's needs. > > Hmm.. there is this market in the suburbs where I can buy it all for around $2. > > Hey, but I cannot do it. The local market guys are getting angry. Since they won't budge from the place or reduce their prices, probably I'd have to shift residence to the suburbs to justify myself???

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                          • Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                            And neither one of you get the point Joe has been trying to make. There are companies that are outsourcing their IT needs overseas purely as a means to reduce costs. To generalize that the employees that have lost their jobs because of a personlaity conflict or a reduced set of skills does not apply in these circumstances. A prime example would be the relocation of Dell's Technical Support to India. Are you really going to try and say that the people in Texas lost their jobs because the personnel India could provide were better technologically? Or that they had better customer service skills? I would hope not. The answer it was moved was to reduce costs. And this move backfired on Dell when their Corporate Customers complained that the service received from the Indian's was substandard and totally not acceptable. Bill

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                            • Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                              Sanity does exist. Good points Bill. Outsourcing is not necesarily bad. That is a good thing because I am a contractor (US citizen)(outsourced) that is working on part of a large (in house) project for a large multinational corp. And in this case it made sense for them to bring me in to utilize specific skills(ILE) I have and mentor the inhouse staff. So, all outsourcing is not bad. Nor, do I say that my circumstance is the only instance of outsourcing being good. Had this corp outsourced the whole shop to a company that used domestic or foreign (legal) workers that were not abusing any laws, that would be okay too. If this corp used illegals either outsourced or internally on visas, or intentionally, grossly abused exitsting laws that harm (legal) (tax paying) citizens and their right to the pursuit of happiness in the form of gaining legal employment....then that is bad. Shame on the Corps that do it, and shame on the politicians that write laws that abuse the citizens of any country. And shame on the citizens that think is is negative to try to bring to light wrongs that only will hurt 'all' of us in the long run. Intelligent, thoughtful conversation is not negative or whining, it is often the beginning of something good... I believe in the marketplace. With no Buts, if everyone is playing by the rules.

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                              • Where Have All the IT Jobs Gone?

                                Bill said: "There are companies that are outsourcing their IT needs overseas purely as a means to reduce costs." Which is, of course, is a generalization. I know that corporate decision making is never that simple. More from Bill:"To generalize that the employees that have lost their jobs because of a personlaity conflict or a reduced set of skills does not apply in these circumstances. A prime example would be the relocation of Dell's Technical Support to India." A statement that, in itself, is a generalization. There's simply no way for us to know what factors were involved in Dell's decision. Were you in the decision making meetings? Bill asked:"Are you really going to try and say that the people in Texas lost their jobs because the personnel India could provide were better technologically? Or that they had better customer service skills?" I can't possibly say. I'm not naive enough to speculate on Dell's decison making process. I know, from many years experience in top level management, that these decisions are generally not snap judgements. My experience in such matters is that they are debated heavily over a period of time. The good companies look objectively at all of the pros and cons to the issue and do what appears to be in the best interest of the company. Everything I know about Dell implies they are a good company. I do spend over $1million a year with Dell and wouldn't do so if I didn't think they are on the right track. Bill also said: "The answer it was moved was to reduce costs." Well, duh. There's huge pressure from stakeholders to always reduce costs. Bill added: "And this move backfired on Dell when their Corporate Customers complained that the service received from the Indian's was substandard and totally not acceptable." All decisions have a risk factor. BTW, we are a reasonably large corporate customer of Dell and have no complaints regarding service. Beware of generalizations about companies that you read in the trade mags or on web sites. Often the trades take one or two examples and write an article implying, or letting you leap to the conclusion, that those examples represent the norm. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

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