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High School Computer Science: Does Not Compute?

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  • High School Computer Science: Does Not Compute?

    While I agree with a lot of what you state in your article, I think an important reason why we're facing a shortage of educated American programmers is precisely BECAUSE of the business trend of outsourcing programming work, particularly to India. If I'm a college student trying to decide what subject to major in, why would I pick Computer Science, when it seems like American industry is focused on minimizing its number of employees with that background? I'd rather select a major in a field that is less "outsourceable".

  • #2
    High School Computer Science: Does Not Compute?

    If I were choosing a career, I would be keenly interested in the job opportunities available. That is what what I did way back when, and it's what I believe young adults are doing now. The business sector has been very happy to spread the word about how they are outsourcing jobs. They make it known far and wide, and the mere fact that the word is in common usage should tell you how successful they've been. I'd suggest these messages were mostly meant for the investor community. The downside is that students have taken notice. Combine that with the "Dot Com Meltdown", and you have an unfriendly recruiting message. Sure, the Meltdown was years ago now, but how many young people know that things have changed? Computing does not look like a good bet for a thriving career. It makes one think that this confluence of events isn't entirely accidental. "We have to outsource, because we can't get qualified applicants (at the price we're willing to pay), because we've said too much about the things already outsourced."

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    • #3
      High School Computer Science: Does Not Compute?

      Brian Harder wrote: Computing does not look like a good bet for a thriving career. I recently received the course catalog for the State University of New York, at Purchase. Not one computer course could be found in the entire catalog. Dave

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      • #4
        High School Computer Science: Does Not Compute?

        David, What types of courses used to be offered at SUNY, Purchase? Thanks.

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        • #5
          High School Computer Science: Does Not Compute?

          David wrote: "I recently received the course catalog for the State University of New York, at Purchase. Not one computer course could be found in the entire catalog. " Irrelevant. Purchase College is primarily a school for the visual and performing arts. If you want a computer science education, you go elsewhere. Cheers! Hans

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          • #6
            High School Computer Science: Does Not Compute?

            Germaine: Last year's catalog offered several courses. A diminution from five years ago. The local colleges in my area show similar reductions. My point being that there is an observable downward trend. It would be interesting to have national data on this subject. I believe those most familiar with Purchase, and the wide variety of of curriculae offered would be surprised by your characterization. Dave

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            • #7
              High School Computer Science: Does Not Compute?

              Lots of fuzzy numbers. There is not such a "shortage" of programming jobs that employers have stopped demanding years of experience in the most demanding disciplines of J2EE, .NET, and C++. If you want to claim there's a shortage of the most advanced experienced programmers, you're on solid ground. Other than that, it's a lot dicier, so to speak. Speaking of which, the so called exorbitant demand for J2EE and .NET programmers is made up of innumerable consulting companies riding to riches on government money trickling through their fingers to people who actually know how to do something. Worked in Katrina, works forever where you have a publicly funded government trough and pigs witb squatter's rights. Be nice if they actually provided the government something that worked for all those billions they sucked out of us. As for supply and demand of IT people, when there's a demand for new talent, there'll be a supply. There's only two companies I'm aware of making a noise about not being able to find enough talent right now, Microsoft and Intel. Intel is more of an EE shortage. There's always going to be a shortage at that level. Microsoft's shortage is encumbered with a number of difficulty factors: location in Redmond; thousands of the best programmers hate their guts; and people bailing from Microsoft very publically. There's tremendous pressure there, Vista has "performance" problems and is in a nearly permanent holding pattern. They're not alone though. IBM got kicked out of North Dakota because they can't program. It's not the programmers though, it's the people with money trickling through their fingers. And there's never a shortage of them. rd

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              • #8
                High School Computer Science: Does Not Compute?

                I wish I had kept the catalogs to answer the question with detail and accuracy. From memory, there were the introductory courses followed by client and web development. Dave

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                • #9
                  High School Computer Science: Does Not Compute?

                  The entry jobs in IT are being outsourced - and you can plausibly argue that low level programming can be through of as a commodity. The problem with this theory is that those entry level jobs are also the breeding grounds for the mid and high level IT. This however happens in the next quarter, so it's way beyond the horizon for Joe CEO. An education in Computer Science starts in the university and is completed in a nurturing work environment. Business greed has destroyed the later, so the effects spill over. Students take notice, and however bright the prospects may be for a high paying, high level IT job after 10 years in the field, the scarcity of entry jobs drives them away. In interesting side effect is that you have now a lot of IT managers and directors with broad experience in marketing, human resources and other "core" competencies and their decisions show it. This in itself makes the entry level job even less inspiring as these people have no understanding for the field and no ability to develop it.

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                  • #10
                    High School Computer Science: Does Not Compute?

                    Even if it wasn't their main specialty, they used to offer under and grad level Computer Science programs only 6 years ago. And how can you have a visual arts program withtout any computer science?

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                    • #11
                      High School Computer Science: Does Not Compute?

                      So Purchase College isn't offering computer courses any more. So what? This isn't North Korea. You can't force students to study computer science. If there's no demand for computer science courses at one school, then why bother to offer them? (Of course, many artists use computers in their work. But you don't need computer science for that!) In general, though, I'm bothered by calls from business for more computer science education. First, there are already a lot of capable computer programmers and analysts. Most businesses simply don't want to pay for the necessary training for experienced workers, prefering low paying college graduates pre-packaged with all the required skills. Second, programmer productivity is slowly but steadily improving. Third, the vast majority of people simply don't have the innate natural talent or personality for a computer career. Encouraging more people to study computer science may have the unfortunate effect of bringing more idiots into the profession. (Sorry, I can't think of a more diplomatic way to express that thought.) Cheers! Hans

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                      • #12
                        High School Computer Science: Does Not Compute?

                        This misses the point. I'm not trying (by these posts) to encourage more computer education in colleges and universities. I am pointing out a reaction by colleges and universities to the dearth of opportunity to anyone trying to begin a career in information technology. Technology careers have been legislated to the point of near death. If one finds fewer available courses, it is because most individuals, even those with natural technology inclinations, will decline to take courses in a field that leads nowhere. If fewer students take the courses, then educational institutions will stop offering the courses. This is problemsome from a variety of perspectives. When communicating with politicians, I find that these arguements hold more water, than personal loss. Dave

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                        • #13
                          High School Computer Science: Does Not Compute?

                          David wrote: "I am pointing out a reaction by colleges and universities to the dearth of opportunity to anyone trying to begin a career in information technology." "Dearth of opportunity"? So one (primarily arts) college dropped its compsci courses, and that's a "dearth"? Last time I check, there were a lot of colleges and universities still offering compsci programs. At my own alma mater a couple of years ago, the computing science department became the "School of Computing" in recognition of its importance and cross-disciplinary role. "Technology careers have been legislated to the point of near death. If one finds fewer available courses, it is because most individuals, even those with natural technology inclinations, will decline to take courses in a field that leads nowhere." "Leading nowhere"? Did you not read the report? It said that there's an anticipated shortage of 1.5 million computer jobs by 2012! You're not referring to the issue of outsourcing, are you? The reality is that if businesses can't find qualified local talent, they will go elsewhere to find it. The report attempts to find solutions at the high school level, but the problems are multi-faceted and complex. One problem is that some school boards have a poor grasp of science education. (Kansas is an example.) Another problem is that the kinds of people who have an aptitude for computer science (geeks and nerds) tend to be marginalized in American society. (OK, I know that's an over-generalization.) Another thing to consider is that a lot of other trades and professions are also facing shortages in coming years too as the demographics shift. If you're concerned, do as Thomas said and forward the report to someone who might be able to do something. But not to your high school principal. Your school board trustees should read this. Or your elected officials at the state or provincial level. Cheers! Hans

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                          • #14
                            High School Computer Science: Does Not Compute?

                            Hans.Boldt exclaimed: "Leading nowhere"? Did you not read the report? It said that there's an anticipated shortage of 1.5 million computer jobs by 2012! There are several reports compiled by industries that come to that conclusion. The OMB has stated that these numbers are skewed and that the programmer shortage is a "myth". When my own job hunting experience is peppered with offers of a salary that I was earning twenty years ago, and finding even those positions is a difficult task at best I think of the writers of the personnel shortage papers as delivering the Groucho Marx line: Who are your going to believe - - Me or your own eyes?? Dave Dave

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                            • #15
                              High School Computer Science: Does Not Compute?

                              One of these reports comes out everytime someone tries to get the H1-B quotas raised. rd

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