I could offer the same or better IT work for a fruction of american worker

I could offer the same or better IT work for a fruction of american worker

Glen wrote:

"Are you telling me that I should spend my companies time and money >to train someone that we hired to let's say create A/P Inquiry >screen. The company I hired already said they can create this screen >for me. I give them the full design specs on the program (files >layouts, Preliminary screen layouts, expected functionality, etc.). >Now you want me to train them to do what? They already said they can >do the job. If I have to train them then I would never have hired >them.

You also keep using the "current business model designed" phrase, >what do you mean by this?"

I do not understand, what's wrong with the company A to train company B leader. Of course, it does not mean to train him/her the basics . I meant the project requirements. As we know all companies have their own requirements. In addition, it will pay off in the future. I understand this as a long term business relationship. So it might be a good investment. By "current business model designed" I meant the model where a leader is responsible for team's projects.

I could offer the same or better IT work for a fruction of american worker

javajuniorexpert wrote: "Again, I am not a programmer that makes sound codes" This explains a lot. By your own words you are one of the people that don't create sound code. No wonder you are putting the blame elsewhere. It explains a lot.

I could offer the same or better IT work for a fruction of american worker

What kind of training should I give the supervisor of a company I hire to do a job (that already told me that they can do the job)? Are you telling me that I should spend my companies time and money to train someone that we hired to let's say create A/P Inquiry screen. The company I hired already said they can create this screen for me. I give them the full design specs on the program (files layouts, Preliminary screen layouts, expected functionality, etc.). Now you want me to train them to do what? They already said they can do the job. If I have to train them then I would never have hired them. You also keep using the "current business model designed" phrase, what do you mean by this?

I could offer the same or better IT work for a fruction of american worker

Chuck, You are very correct, once we know who the programmer is and if he/she does not meet our expectations we can request the not work on the project. Unfortunately with this outsourcing to other countries contact with the programmers becomes so difficult. And requests to remove a programmer doesn't always work (been there done that). I was trying to speak in general terms to get my point across that Javajuniorexpert was putting the blame on the wrong group when projects are not completed properly. We as IT professionals (every where) must take responsibility for the products (programs, websites, etc.) that we produce. Pushing the blame for faulty programming onto the manager of the Customer company is wrong.

I could offer the same or better IT work for a fruction of american worker

I think, the current business model designed: only one person (supervisor) is responsible for his/her team project. Let the supervisor train and control the team. That's correct the company A has nothing to do with the development team of company of B. Company A deals only with the team's leader. The problem is, how well is the leader trained or instructed by A's. I think, when A and B leaders understand each other, there is a very good chance to a successful project.

I could offer the same or better IT work for a fruction of american worker

Chuck wrote:

"However, you've done us all an eye opening public service. If your participation in the newsgroup is a preview of how you write code, >then you've convinced me that offshore, foreign language programming is >something that I'll never pursue. Thanks for the public service!"

Sorry about the quits. I fixed it. Thanks for the comments. Again, I am not a programmer that makes sound codes. There are plenty of great offshore programmers, no doubts about it. It seems like my participation in this thread understood as if I am representing the whole offshore IT community. Even, if I would , which is not possible in real life, represent them I would had to be a great verbal communicator. Chuck, do not be so easily convinced. there are many factors to consider in order to be convinced in something, especially in this so complicated field. I am not trying to convince anyone in here. I am just show my view of the outsourcing pros and cons. There are many examples of good programmers being a poor communicator and vise versa. Not always it's possible to found a person with all the necessary skills. However, in a team everyone might utilize his/her skills. In addition, that’s true that in-house programmers are better then offshore. There are many reasons of that. only one and only one factor would make investors to outsource: "Low cost". Yes, I am agree, not always the cost is low, sometimes or most of the times it's even higher and less productive. However, I think, not only I, many people think there is a huge potential of outsourcing. I think, the problem is not on programmers, but in IT managers from both sides.

I could offer the same or better IT work for a fruction of american worker

Why would it be the responsibility of the Hiring Company to train the Contracted company? The contracted company got the contract because they said they can do the job for less. I honestly think you are missing the point. You keep saying it is the responsibility of, again, Company A to train and dictate who works on the contract. The business reality is that Company A is hiring Company B to do a job that Company B said they can do. The responsibility for fulfilling that contract is not Company A, but Company B. Why are you so afraid to take responsibility for your own actions? You keep trying to blame everybody but the actual programmers and the 'offshore company' for not meeting their contractual obligations. If you write bad code it is your fault not the designer or the company that hired you. If you do not complete a project on time is is your fault not the company that hired you. If you do not use industry (or the Company that hired you) standards that is your fault not the company that hired you. This applies to all programmers not just the offshore programmers. So why do you keep pointing the finger at everybody else except the people who are truely responsible? As for US management making sure they have the right team, the only way I would know I had the right team is if I hired them myself. Other than that I have to rely on what the 3rd party Company says it can deliver (in writing) regardless of where the company resides. And yes when you contract for services you basically give the specifications and pay the money. You of course have meeting on the progress of the project but I've never heard of anybody inspecting the actual code since every contract I've ever been on or seen states that the programs will be coded in the standards of the hiring company. You have to rely on the Managers at the 3rd party company to honestly inform you of progress and to have their personnell at the skill level to produce the product at the highest standards. When you recieve the product then you test it to ensure it is working as specified. If not you return it. This happens with normal employees, it is the process. The problem is that we are always returning projects or deciding it is more efficient to take over the project ourselves due to time contraints because the offshore company couldn't fulfill their promises. Please take responsibility for your (and your fellow programmers) own actions.

I could offer the same or better IT work for a fruction of american worker

javajuniorexpert, Your posts are very hard to read. You quote others without putting quote marks around their snippets so it's hard to tell when the quote from others ends and your writing begins. It's a jumbled mess. I expect that I'll stop reading them because of the difficulty. It must be a culture or language thing. However, you've done us all an eye opening public service. If your participation in the newsgroup is a preview of how you write code, then you've convinced me that offshore, foreign language programming is something that I'll never pursue. Thanks for the public service! ;-) chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "javajuniourexpert" wrote in message news:6ae9ee93.9@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > glawrhts wrote: > > The company I work for currently does some of its work offshore, as they own part of the offshore company. We have had to push several projects back because the offshore team's deliverables were defective. > Another time I had the misfortune of having to make modifications to a program written by an offshore contractor. I had to virtually rewrite the program in order to put in the modifications because it was so badly written. > > The bottom line in my opinion is that if you work for a company, you have a vested interest in the success of your company, and you will do the best job you can. That is why in my opinion the code written by in-house programmers will always be superior to anything from offshore. Offshore companies and their programmers will never have that interest. As long as they churn out the code, and get paid for it, no matter what the quality. Maybe we should outsource some CEO's > > dglawrhts , > As a programmer you are right, however, the programmers most of the times don't make business decisions. I think, the outsourced team should be trained and in detail instructed what the hiring company expects from them. Otherwise, the misunderstandings and bugs would be always common. I think, the hiring management must make sure they have the right team in place. Not just give the instructions and pay the money. There are a little more involved then the US IT management used to deal with.

I could offer the same or better IT work for a fruction of american worker

Glen said: "So please tell me again it is Company A's responsibility to interview and approve who Company B hires." Glen, We currently have 2 outsourcing projects to help us where we don't have expertise. Fortunately they are in the U.S. and one is in our time zone so communication is easy. In fact, we often communicate directly with the programmers. If, for any reason I felt that the programmer wasn't working in the best interest of my company I'd have no qualms for asking them to be replaced by someone else. While I agree with you that I can't tell them who to hire or fire, I can certainly tell them that I don't want a specific programmer working on my project. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

I could offer the same or better IT work for a fruction of american worker

Your standards for quality code is not going to be the same as an in-house programmer. As long as you feel the code does what it was supposed to do, the offshore team will feel that they met their contract requirements. I am sure that the programmer who's code I have to rewrite because he duplicated a routine 10 times instead of using a subroutine and coding a loop to call it felt he did a good job. But he is not here anymore, and we have to live with his code through out our system where ever he worked on it. When I have had to go on job interviews, my prospective employer would make sure I knew what I claimed to know. There is no way to know what the level of expertise is when it is offshore. Your can assure me all day long how great your staff is, but the bottom line is there is now way to know. When the project is due, and the code looks like crap, was it cost effective? I doubt it. And I doubt the US manager who suggested going offshore is going to know the difference, or admit it.

I could offer the same or better IT work for a fruction of american worker

glawrhts wrote: The company I work for currently does some of its work offshore, as they own part of the offshore company. We have had to push several projects back because the offshore team's deliverables were defective. Another time I had the misfortune of having to make modifications to a program written by an offshore contractor. I had to virtually rewrite the program in order to put in the modifications because it was so badly written. The bottom line in my opinion is that if you work for a company, you have a vested interest in the success of your company, and you will do the best job you can. That is why in my opinion the code written by in-house programmers will always be superior to anything from offshore. Offshore companies and their programmers will never have that interest. As long as they churn out the code, and get paid for it, no matter what the quality. Maybe we should outsource some CEO's dglawrhts , As a programmer you are right, however, the programmers most of the times don’t make business decisions. I think, the outsourced team should be trained and in detail instructed what the hiring company expects from them. Otherwise, the misunderstandings and bugs would be always common. I think, the hiring management must make sure they have the right team in place. Not just give the instructions and pay the money. There are a little more involved then the US IT management used to deal with.

I could offer the same or better IT work for a fruction of american worker

The company I work for currently does some of its work offshore, as they own part of the offshore company. We have had to push several projects back because the offshore team's deliverables were defective. Another time I had the misfortune of having to make modifications to a program written by an offshore contractor. I had to virtually rewrite the program in order to put in the modifications because it was so badly written. The bottom line in my opinion is that if you work for a company, you have a vested interest in the success of your company, and you will do the best job you can. That is why in my opinion the code written by in-house programmers will always be superior to anything from offshore. Offshore companies and their programmers will never have that interest. As long as they churn out the code, and get paid for it, no matter what the quality. Maybe we should outsource some CEO's.

I could offer the same or better IT work for a fruction of american worker

Glen wrote: Again you are putting the blame on poor programming on the manager on the U.S. end. Here is how things really work. Company A hires Company B to do the work. It is not nor will it ever be the responsibility of Company A to dictate to Company B who they should or should not hire. It is Company B's responsibility to fulfil the contract with appropriately skilled personnel. It is Company B's responsibility to complete each task on time and provide the agreed upon product. In this case a program or application. What you have been saying is that Company A should be telling Company B, I only want programmers that have 10 years experience working with J.D. Edwards Order Communications Module to work on any project I give you. It is Company B responsibility to staff the project appropriately. That is what they are being PAID to do. I personally have had to bounce projects back to Company B several times because the project didn't meet the specification that were given to Company B. This causes the company to loose more time in rolling out the change with in turn costs the company more money, since most of what we do is cost savings. So please tell me again it is Company A's responsibility to interview and approve who Company B hires. You are trying to shift the responsibility from you (or your company) to the company that hired you. That is just unethical and bad business. If I give you specification on what I want created, I expect that you give me a product that meets that specification. That is what I am paying you for. Personally, and of course I don't decide these matters, I believe that if a contracted service is not rendered properly the vender (which would be you or your company) should be absorb the cost that my company has to indure due to your companies incompentence. Glen, I do not have "a one size fits all" model. I think, it should be a custom made model for each business contract. I guess, there are many misunderstandings and problems between the parties inside the US. I believe, the buyer/customer must do many investigations before hiring. There are many brokers; they have nothing to do with the actual programming. What the do just profits: hiring the cheapest professionals. Again, it is a big job to find a good third country team. When the owners/investors start think not only of money but also of the product quality, they would find a way to found a good team. If we would, start think about this and put the emotions aside, I am sure, we could come up with some great models to.

I could offer the same or better IT work for a fruction of american worker

javajuniourexpert wrote: "Glen, don't you think if a programmer from a third country can do a great job working directly for a company could not do the same great job working just outside the country. I think, and I am sure the same quality work may be done anywhere if a person is qualified. I think, the poor products come out because the hiring IT managers did not create a model of how to hire and manage professionals outside the country. The same managers might do a great job inside their company, but when the outsource involved, I think, they should create a new strategy." Again you are putting the blame on poor programming on the manager on the U.S. end. Here is how things really work. Company A hires Company B to do the work. It is not nor will it ever be the responsibility of Company A to dictate to Company B who they should or should not hire. It is Company B's responsibility to fulfil the contract with appropriately skilled personnel. It is Company B's responsibility to complete each task on time and provide the agreed upon product. In this case a program or application. What you have been saying is that Company A should be telling Company B, I only want programmers that have 10 years experience working with J.D. Edwards Order Communications Module to work on any project I give you. It is Company B responsibility to staff the project appropriately. That is what they are being PAID to do. I personally have had to bounce projects back to Company B several times because the project didn't meet the specification that were given to Company B. This causes the company to loose more time in rolling out the change with in turn costs the company more money, since most of what we do is cost savings. So please tell me again it is Company A's responsibility to interview and approve who Company B hires. You are trying to shift the responsibility from you (or your company) to the company that hired you. That is just unethical and bad business. If I give you specification on what I want created, I expect that you give me a product that meets that specification. That is what I am paying you for. Personally, and of course I don't decide these matters, I believe that if a contracted service is not rendered properly the vender (which would be you or your company) should be absorb the cost that my company has to indure due to your companies incompentence. Just my opinions

I could offer the same or better IT work for a fruction of american worker

Glen wrote: So outsourcing is a benefit to them (the pros outway the cons). On my side you have those of us that have lost jobs or been involved when outsourcing has occured and have seen what it has done to the local ecomony, friends, co-working, etc. Glen, I am so sorry you are one of the victims of outsourcing. This is not up to the business owners or managers; it is the US long-term economical strategy. For instance, Wal-Mart' cheap goods. Many people enjoy the, even though they realize most of the merchandises were produced outside the country and jobs for the locals were lost. Even the main streets of some small towns became empty. Many store owners lost their businesses, they could not compete with the giant. Glen wrote: Some of us have seen the quality or lack of it of the completed project by the outsourced programmers. I am not saying there are no programmers work for companies in India and elsewhere that are not highly skilled. What I've said is that in my 23 yrs of experience I haven't seen one yet. I have seen individuals work directly for a company that were skilled (from India, China, etc.) but the product from an outsourced company has not met the quality standards of any company I've worked for. Glen, don't you think if a programmer from a third country can do a great job working directly for a company could not do the same great job working just outside the country. I think, and I am sure the same quality work may be done anywhere if a person is qualified. I think, the poor products come out because the hiring IT managers did not create a model of how to hire and manage professionals outside the country. The same managers might do a great job inside their company, but when the outsource involved, I think, they should create a new strategy.