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I could offer the same or better IT work for a fruction of american worker

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  • #16
    I could offer the same or better IT work for a fruction of american worker

    I think, the current business model designed: only one person (supervisor) is responsible for his/her team project. Let the supervisor train and control the team. That's correct the company A has nothing to do with the development team of company of B. Company A deals only with the team's leader. The problem is, how well is the leader trained or instructed by A's. I think, when A and B leaders understand each other, there is a very good chance to a successful project.

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    • #17
      I could offer the same or better IT work for a fruction of american worker

      Chuck, You are very correct, once we know who the programmer is and if he/she does not meet our expectations we can request the not work on the project. Unfortunately with this outsourcing to other countries contact with the programmers becomes so difficult. And requests to remove a programmer doesn't always work (been there done that). I was trying to speak in general terms to get my point across that Javajuniorexpert was putting the blame on the wrong group when projects are not completed properly. We as IT professionals (every where) must take responsibility for the products (programs, websites, etc.) that we produce. Pushing the blame for faulty programming onto the manager of the Customer company is wrong.

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      • #18
        I could offer the same or better IT work for a fruction of american worker

        What kind of training should I give the supervisor of a company I hire to do a job (that already told me that they can do the job)? Are you telling me that I should spend my companies time and money to train someone that we hired to let's say create A/P Inquiry screen. The company I hired already said they can create this screen for me. I give them the full design specs on the program (files layouts, Preliminary screen layouts, expected functionality, etc.). Now you want me to train them to do what? They already said they can do the job. If I have to train them then I would never have hired them. You also keep using the "current business model designed" phrase, what do you mean by this?

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        • #19
          I could offer the same or better IT work for a fruction of american worker

          javajuniorexpert wrote: "Again, I am not a programmer that makes sound codes" This explains a lot. By your own words you are one of the people that don't create sound code. No wonder you are putting the blame elsewhere. It explains a lot.

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          • #20
            I could offer the same or better IT work for a fruction of american worker

            Glen wrote:
            "Are you telling me that I should spend my companies time and money >to train someone that we hired to let's say create A/P Inquiry >screen. The company I hired already said they can create this screen >for me. I give them the full design specs on the program (files >layouts, Preliminary screen layouts, expected functionality, etc.). >Now you want me to train them to do what? They already said they can >do the job. If I have to train them then I would never have hired >them.
            You also keep using the "current business model designed" phrase, >what do you mean by this?"
            I do not understand, what's wrong with the company A to train company B leader. Of course, it does not mean to train him/her the basics . I meant the project requirements. As we know all companies have their own requirements. In addition, it will pay off in the future. I understand this as a long term business relationship. So it might be a good investment. By "current business model designed" I meant the model where a leader is responsible for team's projects.

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            • #21
              I could offer the same or better IT work for a fruction of american worker

              Glen, I do not blame any parties. I am just trying to discuss the possibilities of outsourcing. So far I've read only negative replies. I think it's not only negative, there are might be some positives. However, I guess, the people are so proud to put aside the emotion and to consider the reasonable factors. Glen, I am a little disagree with you about your statement " it explains all". "Again, I am not a programmer that makes sound codes" this was my answer to Chuck. When he wrote:
              "However, you've done us all an eye opening public service. If your >participation in the newsgroup is a preview of how you write code, >then you've convinced me that offshore, foreign language programming >is something that I'll never pursue. Thanks for the public service!"
              I fact, what I tried to say is , ones verbal skills has nothing to do with the technical skills. In other words, a person might be a great communicator, but a poor programmer and vise versa. So , do not judge me or anyone by only verbal skills.

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              • #22
                I could offer the same or better IT work for a fruction of american worker

                The project requirements should be documented and given to the company that was hired, along with any documentation on the standards of programming (i.e. field names, program names, file names, standards of coding, etc.). Training implies sitting down with someone and teaching them. I know when I recieve specifications they are pretty detailed. I know when I write specifications they are also very detailed. If the company or companies team leader cannot understand the specifications then it is up to them to seek clarification or "aquire other skills". Being able to read and understand specifications is a major requirement in the IT world. I'm not saying that questions will not come up during and maybe even before the project starts. I do expect any company I hire to be able to understand the specifications I give them or to promptly ask for clarification. I also expect not to have to train anybody on the specific application level of the project, since the company I hired already informed me that they had knowledge of this (or should have informed me up front that they needed time to learn the application). A project requirements change per project, therefore, an understanding of project should have been accomplished prior to making a bid on the project (no training should be needed). This is of course presuming that the company was dealing honestly with me. Personally if I found that the company I hired did not already have an understanding of the project I would fire them and hire someone that did understand the project. Otherwise, I'm looking at an even higher cost. Creating a potential long term relationship with a 3rd party company is based on the performance of the 3rd party company. If I have to train the companies employees (at my expense) then I will loose the cost saving for outsourcing to the company. You don't seem to have a grasp of what professionalism and business ethics are. Why would you promise you can complete a project but have not knowledge of the project itself? Remember when you (or the company) signs the contract you have made a commitment that 1) what you said you can do, you can and 2) that you take responsibility for completing the project to the specifications provided. So, yes I think it is wrong for me to have to train you on the specifications of the project. You should be able to read them. It is then your responsibility to ask questions to ensure you understand the task at hand. There is no way I'm going to know that you do not possess the knowledge to complete the task. Remember, you keep using the work train. As I've said the word implies the person has a lack of knowledge that is needed. Maybe it is your choice of words. If you truely mean that the leader needs to communicate and work with the client and vise versa then yes I will agree. This still does not resolve the issue about the code being poorly written, or the project not being completed as specified, or the completed project being buggy. These are issues that the "team leader" should have addressed prior to turning the project over to the client. As to your use of the word 'model'. I again think here is a language problem. I believe what you are trying to say is the structure within the company. Then again I may be out of touch with some of the new catch phrases. The bottom line is, and I've said this before, the vendor must take responsibility for what they do or don't do. If the resulting product doesn't work or is not within the specification they were given then it is their 'fault' not the fault of the client. You keep saying the client should take responsibility for the vendors inability to complete the project properly. Remind me never to do business with you.

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                • #23
                  I could offer the same or better IT work for a fruction of american worker

                  First, go back and read your own posts. You are too trying to put blame on the failures we have mentioned. You basically said it was our fault that we experience these problems. When in fact it was the fault of the outsourced company that is the problem. I never said outsourcing was bad. I've in fact said I have been part of outsourcing. I believe that outsourcing to a company that does not have the skills to complete the project with minimum interventions is wrong. Outsourcing to a company that cannot communicate with the appropriate user community is wrong. The whole idea of outsourcing is supposed to save the company money not cost them more. Since I am currently a contractor, I am an outsource company. Utilizing me presumably saves the company the cost of hiring a System Analyst. The thing is that I have the skill set to perform the job, whereas, we have been talking about the all to many companies in other countries that do not have the skill sets to perform the contracts they aquire.

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                  • #24
                    I could offer the same or better IT work for a fruction of american worker

                    javajuniourexpert said: "I fact, what I tried to say is , ones verbal skills has nothing to do with the technical skills. In other words, a person might be a great communicator, but a poor programmer and vise versa. So , do not judge me or anyone by only verbal skills." EXACTLY WRONG! The VERY FIRST requirement I have when hiring a new programmer is "excellent communication skills." I can't stress this enough! I don't hire programmers to sit in a corner and pound out code, I hire developers to solve business solutions. The programmer must, I repeat MUST, be able to communicate directly with the end user to fully understand the problem they are to solve. They must be able to converse in non-technical gibberish that engenders the confidence of the end user. And, most of all, they must understand what the end user is NOT saying. I.E. they must be able to read between the lines. If this type of communication doesn't exist there will certainly be a number of miscues, bugs and mistakes when the program is put into production. Communication is the KEY to a successful and complete project. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

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                    • #25
                      I could offer the same or better IT work for a fruction of american worker

                      Chuck Ackerman wrote: EXACTLY WRONG! The VERY FIRST requirement I have when hiring a new programmer is "excellent communication skills." I can't stress this enough! I don't hire programmers to sit in a corner and pound out code, I hire developers to solve business solutions. I can't believe it. Chuck Ackerman, and David Abramowitz in complete agreement on an issue. Will wonders never cease. Dave

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                      • #26
                        I could offer the same or better IT work for a fruction of american worker

                        Chuck Ackerman, and David Abramowitz in complete agreement on an issue. I guess the planets really are in alignment! Enjoy, because it supposed to be 30+ years before it happens again! Joe

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                        • #27
                          I could offer the same or better IT work for a fruction of american worker

                          This is, after all, the age of Aquarius! (Whatever that means.) chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Joe Wells" wrote in message news:6ae9ee93.25@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > Chuck Ackerman, and David Abramowitz in complete agreement on an issue. > > I guess the planets really are in alignment! Enjoy, because it supposed to be 30+ years before it happens again! > > Joe

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                          • #28
                            I could offer the same or better IT work for a fruction of american worker

                            Well, it is the dawn of a new age.....Even I agree with Chuck.

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                            • #29
                              I could offer the same or better IT work for a fruction of american worker

                              Did anyone notice the response to not putting quotes around things--"I fixed the quits"????? Oh sure this will work for communication with users who would have to decipher emails from this guy, no problem. I couldn't continue reading because I was laughing too hard!

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                              • #30
                                I could offer the same or better IT work for a fruction of american worker

                                I know this is quite presumptuous, but what the heck. Did it ever occur to any of you that if you redirected the time spent posting these barbs towards your career, maybe the increase in knowledge & productivity would make your employers less likely to outsource your jobs?

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