Weaving WebSphere: Is WDSC Worth It or Not?

[R.Daugherty]

Weaving WebSphere: Is WDSC Worth It or Not?

Second, the basic "search strings and substitute" concept of CGI of any type is flawed compared to the JSP idea of actually parsing the template and then writing code and compiling it. Ok, I will check into the difference further. rd

[J.Pluta]

Weaving WebSphere: Is WDSC Worth It or Not?

Bob, I think I missed this message. I apologize. But the cost of WDSC is NADA. ZILCH. ZIPPO. It comes free as part of 5722WDS, although the price for those who don't own an iSeries is about $1500. The Advanced edition is $4500. Joe

[R.Daugherty]

Weaving WebSphere: Is WDSC Worth It or Not?

Your comparison doesn't hold up. That's hardware, I'm talking software. One side (Microsoft) DOES give you the tools to train yourself for free, and one side (IBM) that doesn't. That's all. I came back to this thread for some information, still trying to figure some stuff out. But as to this comment, I think there will be a more comparable situation to iseries WDSC serving if you do Microsoft enterpise software development. There they require Biz Server (or something like that), and when you get into enterprise server based stuff I think you'll find similar costs and requirements to our enterprise server software in Websphere Development Studio. The "emulate an iseries server" part above by someone is key to your requirement, and that isn't trivial. I think ASNA and their AVR and local Datagate DB2/400 clone database would come closest, and you'll notice they're not giving it away free either, even though it's .NET just like whatever freebie it was you were happy with from Microsoft. IBM has already developed and donated to open source the Eclipse IDE behind Websphere Development. And the suggestion that would make a free Websphere Development client useful had no basis anyway. Like I say, if you get into anything enterprise scale with Microsoft that requires servers, such as their ERP software does, you'll probably be needing to ask them to "emulate a Biz server" so I can learn this stuff for free. Then again, they may have a developer version for free. I know Oracle is doing this to a certain degree. It's a matter of what server functionality is practical to emulate on the desktop. rd

[R.Daugherty]

Weaving WebSphere: Is WDSC Worth It or Not?

It comes free as part of 5722WDS, although the price for those who don't own an iSeries is about $1500. The Advanced edition is $4500. This is all very confusing. I cannot imagine anyone from another platform giving this stuff enough time of day to try to sort it out. I take it the "if you don't own an iseries" price was for the consultant purposes to buy WDSc through Passport pricing or whatever to use at client sites. I saw the discussion on the other board where you gave similar response, and poster provided link to IBM search which showed these prices for WDSc. But poster had a used iseries for which you need to add development software as of 5.3, and have to get IBM software subscription and pay for software license. So I added search for Websphere Development Studio, which has all the compilers and everything else on the /400 that presumably WDSc client talks to, and clicking on How to Buy you get "See an approved IBM dealer who will explain it all to you". Are you kidding me? They had a comment box on the page, and I left a comment, as in "are you kidding me?" I guess it's some complicated software tier thing and other horrible stuff from IBM. I'll just figure out something using Linux. IBM can't be serious about trying to sell the iseries to small business. No one would put up with this crap. rd

[J.Pluta]

Weaving WebSphere: Is WDSC Worth It or Not?

I'll just figure out something using Linux. IBM can't be serious about trying to sell the iseries to small business. No one would put up with this crap. Ralph, what are you talking about? You buy the box. You include licensed product 5722WDS, and you get ALL the compilers (from RPG to C) and ALL the development tools (both green screen and GUI). Compare that to wandering through the various levels of Microsoft products and operating systems. How many version of Vista are there now? How many versions of Visual Studio? And Linux, fuhgedaboudit... how many completely different distributions are there? Much less compilers and development tools and so on and so forth. I'm having a hard time understanding what you're complaining about. Joe

[J.Pluta]

Weaving WebSphere: Is WDSC Worth It or Not?

Thanks to my mentors, you know who most of you are, and Joe Pluta I consider you one of them By the way, Craig, thanks for this. It's nice to know somebody appreciates what I do . Joe

[R.Daugherty]

Weaving WebSphere: Is WDSC Worth It or Not?

Not knowing what 5722WDS costs for a used box to start with, Joe. But thanks to the internet, I found the pricing info I was looking for in a local government contract from Farmington, NM. Box is list price so 5722WDS will be close, and it turns out to be the WDSc pricing. So it's all one and the same, but no way you could figure that out from IBM's site. Here's the configuration pricing for a development box from the Farmington contract: 9405-520 Server 1:9405 Model 520 900 1W Serv Feat 520 1X8950 7393 Model 520 Express Edition $ 17,192.00 IBM WebSphere Development Studio for 5722-WDS 1531 P05 Basic OTC WebSph DS - Edition 5829 CD-ROM WebSphere Dev Studio V5R3 5722-WDS OTC $ 1,825.00 I'll stop there. There's other hardware that runs total system price up to $30k, but I think some of it is optional and to support a lot of activity, etc. This 520 box is available for $7k used. It looks like a heck of a development and web server iseries box can be done for close to $10k. This is entirely competitive with total costs for a professional development box and web server for other environments, at least when you have multiple developers and a central server with multi-CPU/user software pricing. So I'm satisfied now. Linux would just go on an LPAR on this box. rd P.S. Yes, it could be done all with open source at cost of heavy duty server hardware but I am thinking of the SQL Server / Oracle / DB2 oriented development costs which kick in with multi user from a central server. I use MySQL on my personal web site, so no slight intended for it and PostgreSQL.

[Guest.Visitor]

Weaving WebSphere: Is WDSC Worth It or Not?

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[MCWebsite.Staff]

Weaving WebSphere: Is WDSC Worth It or Not?

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[David Abramowitz]

Weaving WebSphere: Is WDSC Worth It or Not?

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Joe, This is one of your best articles yet. You lay out the rationale for WDSC use, the typical costs, and benefits. You do this in a most convincing fashion. But.... You are targeting the wrong audience. Most readers will not be empowered to take the necessary action in their shop to accomplish WDSC implementation goals. I would have loved to have seen this article in Information Week, Computerworld, or something similar. Dave

[Guest.Visitor]

Weaving WebSphere: Is WDSC Worth It or Not?

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Thanks Joe, for something simply put. Dave, the only audience that can use the tool is us. The average reader of the pubs you mention have pc's but not a 400 or the knowledge of how to get on one, much less get a legit install of WDSc. But I do. I had WDT back then on Virtual 400 timeshare. I now have WDSc on Rikas timeshare, and those actions were greatly responsible for me having two great job offers a few months ago of which I have taken one and now am finally getting to use the tool at my paying job. Sure I still have three SEU sessions going, but usually I have six sources open in WDSc. Right Audience, Right time. Use it or lose it. Thanks again, Joe for a great article, you have been inspirational over the years. Craig

[Guest.Visitor]

Weaving WebSphere: Is WDSC Worth It or Not?

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Excellent review, Joe. However, unless my eyes are really bad, I did not see you mention the cost of the actual software package - about 2K or so, isn't it? ...and, by the way, when will someone write a message posting routine that allows for proper identification of paragraph indentation on these forums (and multitudes of other websites)? I get tired of the 'blank line between paragraphs' mode of reading. @#%*@ HTML - GET OFF MY LAWN!

[David Abramowitz]

Weaving WebSphere: Is WDSC Worth It or Not?

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Craig wrote: Dave, the only audience that can use the tool is us. I have no problem with this remark, but at the shops I work in, I do not control the purse strings. Nor, do I think most people who use WDSC. What I was trying to imply, was that the article should be read by directors and managers. The article, IMO being a tool to obtain better tools for the working environment. Dave

[pete priefer]

Weaving WebSphere: Is WDSC Worth It or Not?

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So let me get this straight. In order to use, you will need to spend a decent amount of money to update the avergae PC to a state of the art machine. Then you will need "several hours to walk you through" just to check out the tools it has, including many that you will never need, not to mention the time spent learning how to use these tools beneficially (getting jobs completed faster). In addition, you need to 'STRRSESVR' in order to bring up a green screen in order to view your compiles. And the benefit is where ?

[Guest.Visitor]

Weaving WebSphere: Is WDSC Worth It or Not?

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Dave, you are correct in my understanding about the managers being the right target. But I don't think it is Joe's job to market the system, probably be counterproductive in the mass IT media. What I have felt as I grow in this career of only ten years (I am the same age as most of you)is that the PC world is where it is at today, because of the grassroots movements that started in someone's garage or kitchen table. Someone wrote some code that had value in some manager's estimation and he let them introduce it in the business, and first thing you know its like wildfire, every manager at the country club hitting a golf ball has to have it. We have an obligation to ourselves if we want the same kind of results to do the groundwork. Dave, I respect your years of experience and your opinions as you so willing share them with us. But, listen to me for a little. Do you use WDSc in any way today? Do you realize that you can? At home, legally, inexpensively? No 2k investment? If we were auto mechanics....would you choose to work for a shop that didn't have the latest electronic diagnostic tools? If you choose to work somewhere that didn't, would you be able to practice at home? Would you be more valuable in 5 years or 2 years? Would you expect to be worth more to future employers if you knew the new tools or didn't know them. I agree about the purse strings, but we do control our own education and what we pursue. I feel that if we don't do more of that kitchen table and garage stuff, and then bring this article to our management, then we unfortunately are going to continue to be part of the fall of this system. And I believe its that simple for the part that we control. If we deliver killer apps, we survive. If we don't, we don't. Craig Thibodeaux