Java…Huh…Yeah...What Is It Good For?

[J.Pluta]

Java…Huh…Yeah...What Is It Good For?

** This thread discusses the article: Java...Huh...Yeah...What Is It Good For? **
Nathan, thanks for the code examples. It would be great if you actually provided the code that actually did the work. That way we can compare apples to apples. Showing a call to a subprocedure (or five different subprocedures in your case) doesn't actually do anything to show how much work a programmer has to do unless you show the subprocedure code as well. Actually, for a true apples to apples comparison we'd need to see the entire template and all the supporting routines, and compare them to the JSP and the code for the beans. Personally, I find the JSP syntax a lot easier. Not to mention there are many books written on JSP and forums dedicated to it; that's one of the benefits of using an open standard like JSP. Certainly you CAN do UI coding in RPG, but you can also pound nails with a rock. The question is, is it the easiest way? Joe

[R.Daugherty]

Java…Huh…Yeah...What Is It Good For?

** This thread discusses the article: Java...Huh...Yeah...What Is It Good For? **
Joe wrote:You can also go the Perl/PHP/whatever route, but that's getting farther away from both your native RPG and the J2EE platform, so I'm not sure of the strategic term benefits there. When I say I don't understand why it's considered good to generate HTML out of JSP or RPG-CGI, I didn't mean it was good to generate it from PHP. My experience was that web pages were developed by web page developers who weren't even programmers, inserting tags where data was to go based on the spec. In other words, professionally designed web pages. Granted, I used a third party web server to do it but surely the concept must exist in standards. If not, it needs to be, unless somebody can explain why more control is needed or something than tags for data provide for, not that HTML provides for the control anyway. I think IT is about as scewed up as it can get now. rd

[gsanabri@hotmail.com]

Java…Huh…Yeah...What Is It Good For?

** This thread discusses the article: Java...Huh...Yeah...What Is It Good For? **
Excellent article ... focus on a real business world ... nobody can imagine a loan payment system be develop on pure Java. The real point for me is Java add some layers that RPG doesn't have.. if you start talking about servlets, JSP, JFC, etc, etc, etc, ... it would be impossible for any ISV or development people do the job without an Architect area to maintain the most valuable OO characteristic of Java... easy to reuse. The point is RPG application are more simply ... so it is necessary to have this huge impact only to have a new UI?

[nandelin]

Java…Huh…Yeah...What Is It Good For?

** This thread discusses the article: Java...Huh...Yeah...What Is It Good For? **
Joe, The following link may be a bit too much information for some people to absorb, but since you asked, I've referenced screen shots, RPG source code for a browser I/O module, and HTML source templates, for an application which enables teachers to record reading comprehension test scores for their classes. http://www.relational-data.com/ascent/dra.html I seem to recall you advocating procedure calls within RPG programs to communicate with a J2EE runtime environment, so you might consider the possibility of using procedure calls to communicate directly with a browser, bypassing the J2EE interface. Either way, you won't find RPG procedures included in any J2EE "standards". You need to document them yourself. Besides, HTML and JavaScript is the complicated part. Nathan.

[J.Pluta]

Java…Huh…Yeah...What Is It Good For?

** This thread discusses the article: Java...Huh...Yeah...What Is It Good For? **
Actually, Nathan, I don't think I'm getting my point across. Your application code looks pretty good (you did a good job of naming your procedures to make the code relatively self-documenting), but we're still not communicating. The problem is that of all the source code you have listed, you still it don't show all the necessary plumbing. You call lots of procedures (I count at least a dozen) about which we know nothing, and which presumably someone would have to write if they were to attempt to build an architecture such as yours. Yes, I suggest a procedure to talk to the servlet, but in my book WDSC: Step by Step I actually give you ALL of the source required, including all of the support routines. One of the benefits of JSP is that most of the plumbing is already done for you, so you don't have to reinvent the wheel. Unless we can see the inner working of your code, we have no idea how much work is involved. I suggest starting with a simpler application. Say a customer list with page up and page down buttons, maybe a position-to field. For me, it's probably a couple hundred lines of code, including all the support routines. My guess is that the total amount of RPG and HTML templates required to create such a page is actually greater than the total amount of Java, RPG and JSP. But I'll be happy to be proven wrong. Joe

[nandelin]

Java…Huh…Yeah...What Is It Good For?

** This thread discusses the article: Java...Huh...Yeah...What Is It Good For? **
Joe, My focus at the moment is applications development, not developer toolkits. If that's what a programmer needs, then I'd just as soon recommend JSPs and Servlets, and your products, as much as an ILE alternative such as Net.Data, CGIDEV2, or one of the several that are available. I can't quite bring myself to endorsing .Net, though ;-). I occasionally offer my toolkit in conjunction with a development contract. The pattern I normally follow for Web applications is to divide the RPG code into three (3) source members, which I refer to as Controller, Action Handler, and DB I/O modules. Complex applications may require multiple Action Handler and DB I/O modules. Dividing the code that way makes individual modules easier to maintain. Controllers are trivial boiler plate code, but you are correct about it being left out of the example I referenced. If we were to compare a simple customer list application, it might be helpful for me to combine all the code into one module. Nathan.

[J.Pluta]

Java…Huh…Yeah...What Is It Good For?

** This thread discusses the article: Java...Huh...Yeah...What Is It Good For? **
I guess I'm confused. You talk about RPG-CGI, but you keep showing examples using your toolkit. For example, you've got a routine called cboAddItem. I assume that adds an entry to a combo box, which will later cause the appopriate HTML to be generated. That's all fine and good, but either someone has to use your toolkit or they have to write that code themselves. So unless you are giving your toolkit away for free, then we need to know how much code is required to duplicate all the functionality of your application. With my JSP Model II solution, I show you EVERY LINE OF CODE that is needed to run the application. The only way to really compare would be to see all the code of your methods or see an alternate example that doesn't use your toolkit. Joe

[nandelin]

Java…Huh…Yeah...What Is It Good For?

** This thread discusses the article: Java...Huh...Yeah...What Is It Good For? **
Joe, You seems to be concerned about me promoting my Web interfaces to a general audience, which is reasonable since this is a public forum, but you can relax. At this point, I'm only in a position to support a small number of clients who need software development and support services. Most iSeries programmers would be better served by a J2EE interface (which you favor), or one of the CGI alternatives from IBM, or another tool vendor. My current focus is applications development. For now, I can occasionally offer a code sample to stimulate comparative analysis on a technical level, not to promote my toolkit generally. Nathan.

[Guest.Visitor]

Java…Huh…Yeah...What Is It Good For?

** This thread discusses the article: Java...Huh...Yeah...What Is It Good For? **
Very fine article Joe. The UI to the Web is the problem for the RPG world. For Interactive terminals, RPG programmers would not be productive without some level of assistance from IBM in the form of some other objects, such as a display file. In the future perhaps a new object type can be built that might be called a "Web file." Writing the UI in Java instead of a "Web file" object makes sense today since there is no Web file object available to perform the functions at the user interface that Java does quite handily. One must use what is available. If IBM were to give us a way to have that Java code or even machine language code that performs the UI function bundled into an object such as a Web file, in which the Java or machine code was invisible, that would be a great start to re-enfranchising the full RPG community to the Web. For the bulk of the RPG programming community, using a second language, Java, COBOL, or C etc. as the driver for the UI is not something that comes natural, and raw instict would suggest that it be avoided. If IBM had not given us SDA and DDS for display files, we'd be in the same bind with UI for interactive as we are with the Web. If IBM chooses to give us one day SDA-like or GUI designer that creates invisible artifacts and APIs that together might be called a "Web file" as it does with Interactive via the display file object, then UI coding in RPG could be quite painless. I appreciate this thoughtful article on where each language fits in today's world. I do have a dream that IBM will choose to make this better. Then instead of confusion and a small trickle of adventurous i5 developers to the Web using the methods that are available today, perhaps all RPG developers can be re-enfranchised with the i5 in a natural, more natural way. In the end, it's all machine language.

[David Abramowitz]

Java…Huh…Yeah...What Is It Good For?

** This thread discusses the article: Java...Huh...Yeah...What Is It Good For? **
I agreed with this until you came to the APIs. I would go a step further and make the interaction with the web page a part of the language. An EXHTTPFMT or DSPLYHTTP opcode would work nicely for me. Dave

[R.Daugherty]

Java…Huh…Yeah...What Is It Good For?

** This thread discusses the article: Java...Huh...Yeah...What Is It Good For? **
Dave, I think the EXFMT 5250 buffer being generated as an XML stream or 5250 binary provides the flexibility to output to any interface. The XML woudl contain component and positioning information which could be used to generate appropriate HTML. The DDS could then be extended with keywords that allow us to provide additional processing directives that would be ignored by interfaces that don't support them but provide for cooperative processing in richer interfaces. The bottom line, HTML is just another display description. Big deal. If anybody at IBM can pull their head out of their Websphere long enough to give it a little thought, we could have the most advanced and flexible interface instead of this mess they've put us in to try to forcefeed us to Websphere. We'll have to crash and burn before IBM ever listens. Thanks IBM. rd

[nandelin]

Java…Huh…Yeah...What Is It Good For?

** This thread discusses the article: Java...Huh...Yeah...What Is It Good For? **
Brian, Ralph, David, It's sad to hear so many aspirations, hopes, and dreams tied to what IBM doesn't do. Some of my close colleagues feel the same. On the other hand, it sounds like IBM has already provided several Web workstation interfaces [Webfacing, HATS, iSeries Access for the Web, Workstation Gateway], and Joe Pluta offers another. What more do you want? Nathan.

[R.Daugherty]

Java…Huh…Yeah...What Is It Good For?

** This thread discusses the article: Java...Huh...Yeah...What Is It Good For? **
Nathan, what other computer has a web page for an interface? What other computer has no standard interface? What other computer system is dying along with the careers of those on it? What other computer system is captive to IBM doing nothing but making their proprietary Websphere web server the interface to that captive dying computer? In other words, are there such issues for AIX? Of course not. Unix people would never put up with IBM doing nothing. We have no choice. And so we are left with being asked what more could we want. Yes, I agree, it is very sad. rd

[nandelin]

Java…Huh…Yeah...What Is It Good For?

** This thread discusses the article: Java...Huh...Yeah...What Is It Good For? **
Ralph, Are we to gather from your moaning that the iSeries should have just one "primary" user interface in order to be successful, and that both 5250 and HTML are out, as far as you're concerned? Actually, I was hoping for more constructive ideas. One of my colleagues tried Webfacing for example, and concluded that the additional overhead, the additional runtime environment [Websphere, which he considered to be unwieldy], deployment concerns, and complexity were too big of an obstacle. The only thing that made sense to him was something like Brian Kelly's idea, which was published at www.midrangeserver.com, calling for IBM to provide a native device file that output HTML instead of a 5250 stream. This guy, nearly single handedly supports users at about 60 different locations, sometimes making changes to a screen or program, and deploying them, while he has a caller requesting support on the phone. He will sometime ask the user to return to the menu and reload the program, and test the changes, a few minutes after understanding their concerns. Nathan.

[R.Daugherty]

Java…Huh…Yeah...What Is It Good For?

** This thread discusses the article: Java...Huh...Yeah...What Is It Good For? **
I've written three IMHO columns outlining the standard GUI interface for the AS/400. I've written dozens of posts since in the last five years. I recall that you were a particpant back then in the discussions. To repost is not worth my time. Nothing happened then, nothing will happen now until IBM runs out of excuses for the demise of the AS/400 and their stubborn Websphere marketing directive. They are breaking, but not as fast as the AS/400 market. rd