Is RPG Dead?

[frontier_teg]

No, RPG is not dead. However, it may only last a few more decades, so new people really don't want to get involved with it. RPG developers should be learning SQL (SQL scripting language, embedded SQL, etc...), using SQL to create tables, referential integrity constraints, triggers, functions, and stored procedures. The majority of this is portable across platforms. They should also be learning CGI programming (download a copy of CGIDEV2 and play with HTML, XML, e-mail), FTP, and other cross platform technologies that are readily available on the iSeries and readily portable to any other platform. Regardless of the platform you grew up on, within the next decade, hardware and OS will no longer matter to businesses. They will be buying applications for the functionality of the application. As a result, a new breed of servers is coming. Imagine an iSeries that you can LPAR a Windows 200 partition, an OS400 partition, and a Unix Partition. Since the partitions are logical, the CPUs can be bladed and hot swapable, and the disk raided and hot swapable. The Major OS vendors are going to be battling for the number one spot of "all purpose partitioner". RPG will still be needed for the single record access programming needs, as will VB, COBOL, C, FORTRAN, etc... All will have embedded SQL for recordset access. RPG is not dead, but a major change is a comin'.

[luiscolorado]

Is RPG Dead?

Is RPG dead? Well... define "dead" to me, so I can say if it is dead or not. For some, "dead" means that no single line of RPG is being written... by that standard, BASIC, FORTRAN, FoxPro, dBASE, COBOL, assembler, and so on, will live forever. Somebody, somewhere, will keep doing RPG for ever and ever. For others, "dead" is the contrary of "relevant". Is RPG still relevant? Well, for RPG developers that live, breath, and eat RPG, it's alive and well. But, is it still really, really relevant? If you go to Dice.com, you'll find 342 RPG jobs in the USA. For Java, 12,252 jobs. If RPG is so marvelous, how comes Java is about a 400 hundred times more popular? Are those thousands of Java shops full of ignorant dummies, unable to see the marvelous benefits of RPG? The fact is, RPG developers do not understand, and are not willing to understand the benefits of Java or other platforms. Simply because it requires time, and it requires effort. It requires to take a different approach to things... and we are so used to our ways! Even the obvious benefits of ILE took years to take hold! Many shops are still hesitant to use "new" features introduced decades ago. Stop saying "oh, RPG can do that too!"... well, can I build a house with only a screwdriver? Well, I guess I can, but using the right tools for every tasks is always the best way to go. The problem is, am I willing to learn and use those tools? For the rest of the world, RPG is NOTHING. It doesn't even exist... do you really think that the IBM executives really care that much about RPG or the platform? Of course not! We keep saying "if IBM did this, if IBM did that"... but, guess what? They don't even care! We are a nuissance for them... we are just a tiny tiny bit of their bottom line. They haven't thrown away the whole RPG/iSeries thing just because they are still able to make a few millions from us. So, please, stop this silly conversation: is RPG dead? Not, as long as somebody is still maintaining RPG code... is still relevant? I'd say, probably no... are you able to see the facts in the eyes, and call them by their name? It's up to you.

[J.Pluta]

Is RPG Dead?

I guess relevant is in the eye of the beholder. Part of the reason that there are so many Java jobs is that the word "Java" means so many things. Are you a J2EE programmer? Java Architect? Java BEA developer? JSP/Servlets? Tomcat? J2ME? Java/ColdFusion? Another issue is where you look. In Chicago on Monster.com there are 32 RPG jobs and 382 Java jobs, about a 10-to-1 ratio. Another issue is the trend. Java is trending downward, and in a pretty big way, whereas RPG jobs seem to be stable and maybe even picking up a bit. Then there's comparing apples to apples. Given that with the demise of the HP/3000 the iSeries is pretty much the only RPG platform on the planet while Java can run on anything bigger than your wristwatch, the fact that there's only a 10-to-1 ratio is actually pretty telling. Next, the trend is away from monolithic, single-language applications and towards multi-platform, multi-language suites anchored by a powerful server. As long as that server is an iSeries, the primary language will be RPG, since RPG is so powerfully integrated into the operating system. And the iSeries is doing just fine, so there will still be a need for business logic written in RPG. One last nitpick. 12000 Java jobs to 300 RPG jobs is a 40-to-1 ratio, not 400-to-1. Joe

[R.Daugherty]

Is RPG Dead?

I saw an i5 ad posted by a colleague, said it was from Network World. I have mentioned a few times in the past the last time I saw an ad apparently for the computer I work on, at that time it was called the iseries I guess, but the message was the same. A nerd swinging around on a merry go round yelling, "Wheeeee! This is easy!" Yep, that's the computer I work on and what IBM has done to us. Now the ad is of two nerds, two pages, so we see what IBM is talking about in doubling the ad budget for what I guess is being called the i5 now. The ad mumbled something about i5/OS, Linux, and Windows (with a mumble mumble adaptor) and a *. The * was explained in small print at the bottom, said oh by the way AIX also runs on newer models. I guess, maybe, who knows. It's small print that's trying to hide something. The two nerds in the ad are trying to hide a snack machine instead of whirling around on a merry go round. Oh what fun. They are surrounded by stacks of CPU tower boxes that are presumably supposed to be the Windows and Linux servers that are behind the message here. Virtual servers which "in many cases, reduce administrative costs" is the bulk of the ad message. I am afraid that IBM sales personnel will be overwhelmed by customer response to this ad. My heart goes out to them. Let's just hypothesize for a moment that IBM came out with a virtual hypervisor computer to run Windows, Linux, and AIX and didn't run OS/400. Would we care? I wouldn't. The latest mainframe OS runs as many virtual Linux partitions as you want and I don't have to listen to anybody talk about that. But if OS/400 runs on this hypervisor, and is the hypervisor, then IBM gets to muddy our entire OS/400 world with their marketing hallucinations. In my opinion, no one else from the AS/400 world should care what IBM is doing because OS/400 is used as a hypervisor. It's like caring whether Intel retains an 8086 real mode in a Pentium or not. It's interesting to a BIOS engineer, but that's about all. I saw where Linux is getting a Xen hypervisor added to run virtual Windows and Linux partitions. And it won't require a mumble mumble adaptor to run Windows, whatever IBM is mumbling about hanging Intel motherboards on the side of the computer I work on, and other nonsense such as "one backup command, you don't need no freakin admins, one backup command". Yes, may reduce administrative costs indeed. Now, where's that snack machine? rd

[MCWebsite.Staff]

Is RPG Dead?

** This thread discusses the article: Is RPG Dead? **
** This thread discusses the Content article: Is RPG Dead? **
0

[E.Arencibia]

Is RPG Dead?

** This thread discusses the article: Is RPG Dead? **
Yes it is true that there are alot of companies on the AS/400 using RPG. But what happens when the RPG programmers start to retire, who is going to be around to support the exisiting code. As far as I know, no one is learning RPG. Will IBM give us a Migration tool to migrate the RPG/CLP/DDS to Java or .NET? Eugene

[nandelin]

Is RPG Dead?

** This thread discusses the article: Is RPG Dead? **
Ted, Perhaps 95% of the UI code I've been writing for the past several years has been browser based, so it kind of surprises me that you'd suggest reverting back to thick Windows based client-server interfaces. I've been there, done that, and don't want to get stuck in that rut again. What about having RPG programmers learn HTML, JavaScript, and one of the ILE CGI toolkits? Nathan Andelin.

[nandelin]

Is RPG Dead?

** This thread discusses the article: Is RPG Dead? **
I just noticed the date of the article being November 2000. The joke's on me ;-) BTW Eugene, this may be an irony, but I was teaching a bit of ILE RPG to a couple young Java / PHP programmers last week, who have been quite approving, and seem to be on their way to becoming ILE programmers. I helped them convert a PHP applications to RPG. They finished the first application, and are now moving on to another, pretty much unassisted by me. Nathan Andelin

[David Abramowitz]

Is RPG Dead?

** This thread discusses the article: Is RPG Dead? **
The date of the article is interesting. The same rhetorical questions were being posed several years earlier, and I suspect will still be profferred several years from now. Dave

[R.Daugherty]

Is RPG Dead?

** This thread discusses the article: Is RPG Dead? **
Words of wisdom from Ted, then and now. Like Dave said, things change slowly. On the other hand, one concept that gets mentioned a lot is all the RPG code out there and how it's not going to go anywhere. I think that's wrong. Sure, an AS/400 shop doesn't migrate large amounts of its RPG systems to another language. The AS/400 shop just goes away. The reasons are political, both at the macro and micro levels. But no matter how often IBM changes the name, they disappear and I've never seen an ad or a recruiter talk about a new shop coming online, despite the incessant happy talk from IBM execs. So RPG isn't going away, but the computers that run it are. rd

[T.Holt]

Is RPG Dead?

** This thread discusses the article: Is RPG Dead? **
It's been 5 years since I wrote that article, & RPG is still here, isn't it? I'm working in a MAPICS shop, & MAPICS is our statement of direction, so RPG will be alive & well here for a while. I suspect there are a lot of other shops in the same situation. But I can't see RPG becoming the language of choice in the future. I have a friend who says we'll all eventually be programming Wintel platforms.

[Guest.Visitor]

Is RPG Dead?

** This thread discusses the article: Is RPG Dead? **
Ted, Development will be on wintel but it will be for browser-based applications. It won't matter what the target platform is as long as it can run a browser. Back-end DBs will be a similar mix as we have today. Cue the Wayne's World dreamstate sound effects........... I can see a GatesJobs OS XL programmer in 2042 (M.S. bought Apple in 2018 forming GatesSoftJobs) running across your RPG MAPICS programs running on OS400 V9R6, on an old device from 2020 that used to be called a cell phone. They've been using the euphemistically-coined "soft-embedded communications device" that hooks directly to the brain for a number of years and the SJobs18 clone wonders how the old-timers ever put up with such bad code and bulky devices. "we're not worthy... we're not worthy..." Cue the Wayne's World returning dreamstate sound effects........... Regards. Tom.

[T.Holt]

Is RPG Dead?

** This thread discusses the article: Is RPG Dead? **
I've got 20 years until retirement, assuming I ever get to retire, so I don't care about 2042. My only concern is whether or not I'll be able to ride out the 20 years in iSeries shops, either as a developer or a manager, & my gut feeling is that I can't pull it off. If I need another job some day, chances are good it will be in a place that runs Wintel. If so, I won't relish the thought of starting over, but I will adapt.

[nandelin]

Is RPG Dead?

** This thread discusses the article: Is RPG Dead? **
Ted, My understanding is that iSeries sales in terms of dollars have tended downward the past several years, but the number of units shipped has tended upward. Prices have been dropping while capacities have been increasing. New customers come to the platform every year who had no prior experience with it. The challenge for IBM is to motivate ISVs and end users to deploy more applications on the platform, which is in the best interest of everyone, anyway. Our company develops applications for public K-12 school districts, and we've been growing quickly, using a strategy of deploying new Web interfaces on existing and new databases. We're delivering some of the most robust applications that have ever been developed for the platform, using RPG, HTML, Style Sheets, and a wee bit of JavaScript. There is no question in my mind, that if ISVs and other organizations in just about any industry were using the same techniques, iSeries sales would soar. Nathan Andelin

[R.Daugherty]

Is RPG Dead?

** This thread discusses the article: Is RPG Dead? **
Nathan wrote: New customers come to the platform every year who had no prior experience with it. My question would be, what are these alleged new customers running? If the understanding is coming from IBM marketing, then sure, they'll tell you in a heartbeat that customers are buying AS/400's to consolidate Linux and Windows servers. Anyone who believes that is drinking IBM Kool-Aid. The part of IBM that invented the virtual machine called OS/400 is buried deep in the bowels of the IBM that wants to sell any box running Websphere, a name for every software product IBM bought and packaged for resale. Here's a blurb from Government Computer News today: http://www.gcn.com GAO finds faults with new federal procurement-tracking system By Rob Thormeyer GCN Staff 09/27/05 “Although GAO analysts attended contractor-provided training on these reporting tools, we did not find either easy to use. We repeatedly encountered significant performance problems, including system time-outs and delays, when trying to generate both kinds of reports.” end quote This is exactly the same thing encountered with the $200 million FBI Virtual Case File system to replace mainframe CICS Cobol, and the same thing with every new system since it was decided to dump IBM mainframe and midrange for "web based" systems, a euphemism for what IBM is peddling these days, Java J2EE Websphere running SQL. The verdict from users? Unusable. Timeouts is the kindest way to describe it. These systems should all be written in RPG on OS/400 with as powerful an interface as the user wants for the application. The part of IBM that invented OS/400 would know that. Maybe someone who's been sold a bill of goods by these consulting companies like our government will get a clue after they throw away enough "web based" systems, maybe they won't. But a web page interface has nothing to do with these failures. Hopefully at least our government will come to understand why our businesses run on the AS/400 in RPG. Along those lines, here are some ideas I wrote the other day: The problem I think is that the strength of RPG under OS/400 is a unique proprietary solution which everyone dances around but which is the ultimate question. Either custom coded RPG record level logic programming provides powerful cost effective business systems as we have done for decades or it doesn't anymore, but if it doesn't there is no place for RPG programmers and the AS/400 anymore. That's ok if true. Systems written in SQL under J2EE or .NET just like the vendors keep saying, and we all move on. Or we can beat the crapola out of those vendors lowest common denominator software solutions with all the power of OS/400 and RPG record level logic. I say we use every unique capaibilty of OS/400 to its fullest advantage and make people happy doing it. I'm not sure how to change that perception so that organizations once again eagerly embrace the AS/400 as the powerful, custom, cost effective computer to run their business on, but here are some ideas for what they're worth. Build in the best 5250 to HTML converter IBM has into the EXFMT pipeline as a native interface. Accept commands to generate HTML, XML, or XUL through the built in Websphere web server and of course 5250 binary to terminal connections. It isn't done right until users can consider the open source Firefox with perhaps an XUL plugin the native AS/400 interface, or even trump that with an Eclipse Java based interface that handles a 5250 keyword XML stream. Take advantage of the remaining window while Oracle struggles to put out a J2EE Fusion ERP and Microsoft struggles to put out a .NET Green ERP to make open source with something like the Apache license some class RPG ERP with the level of functionality, quality, and aesthetic appeal of perhaps a VAI System 2000. Maybe get a piece of the action from IBM for every AS/400 running an open source ERP. A small opportunity exists for a global standard ERP base for businesses that aren't ready for a SAP or JDE to run, and run on a Sys/3X, just like businesses used to. The maintenance fees and service for a global standard ERP could be there for the right ERP at the right time. Along those lines, make OS/400 nothing but cool as the government and healthcare system of choice to run open source solutions for our many government and healthcare massive system needs, needs that have seen $100 million to $200 million J2EE on Oracle systems literally so useless they are thrown away and never implemented. It takes record level logic in RPG, Cobol, or SAP to handle that much data with logic that complex as we know from experience. We know why Java J2EE fails and we know what we do that works, but the vendors pulling in those hundreds of millions and billions upon billions of dollars for massive failures only have one mantra, open standards that suit their lowest common denominator cross platform dreams. We can beat those vendors with open code that actually works, and it will become a standard. Governments consider Windows and .NET Basic in that realm. Why is OS/400 and RPG any less open than Windows and .NET Basic? It isn't. What is standard is what is wanted. I can't think of a better time to help our government than now anyway. They are reeling from massive development failures and out of money. Done right with OS/400 features such as message files any government could use and contribute to it. This is a battle of OS/400 and RPG against J2EE and Java and .NET and CLR, even though we run those as well. It's a battle we should have already won, but we never marched onto the field. It's time to show that OS/400 and RPG is the software solution that governments should run on successfully because business runs on it successfully. There's a reason for that. Open source solutions would highlight and demonstrate that success. In that battle, ILE should be used to full advantage to include C++ and Cobol with RPG and Java to provide effective open source solutions. In that blur of software merging, IBM can help by implementing some suggestions I've made in the past, allowing /free to accept open and close braces in lieu of a semicolon and END statement for block commands and allowing other Java notation such as the == and != comparators. There is no reason for the code to vary from Java syntax. Better yet, they should just include the equivalent Java and Java Toolkit code syntax as /free syntax. Just because it looks like Java doesn't mean it has to generate bytecodes to run in a JVM. I don't know if it could be slick enough to have new() statements treated as D specs, but what if the code would compile in RPG /free or Java? Would that be a transition or what? rd