RPG Maintenance Tools Survey Results

[D.Abramowitz]

** This thread discusses the article: RPG Maintenance Tools Survey Results **
** This thread discusses the Content article: RPG Maintenance Tools Survey Results **
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[efnkay]

Re:RPG Maintenance Tools Survey Results

** This thread discusses the article: RPG Maintenance Tools Survey Results **
Interesting results...Either I didn't see it or possibly a segment not covered in this analysis. But I was wondering how many shops were still using Lansa, or Synon 2e or Advantage 2e whatever it's called now, or BSD, or one of the remaining survivors of tools used to "generate" RPG of some flavor or another. I recall many times having to do surgery quite often outside of the tools in SEU to get the desired programming results. Surprised that not more are looking at WDSC...??? Although I had to convince our mgmt at one time that "WE DO ALREADY HAVE IT" and please send me the CD's so I can install the client. Are you sure we don't have to buy it...??? Oh god... Anybody maintaining RPG that was generated by a "development" tool like those above...??? God help you...Amen. :-)

[tms020348]

Re:RPG Maintenance Tools Survey Results

** This thread discusses the article: RPG Maintenance Tools Survey Results **

Either I didn't see it or possibly a segment not covered in this analysis. But I was wondering how many shops were still using Lansa, or Synon 2e or Advantage 2e whatever it's called now, or BSD, or one of the remaining survivors of tools used to "generate" RPG of some flavor or another.

The survey was designed to identify the maintenance tools in use. It was not designed to extract information about the development methodology of the original code. The results of the survey don't support or belie the use of any development tool. The list of maintenance tools represented in the survey results were the participants' lists which the participants provided. It would seem that this would indicate that either those code-generators are not being used for maintenance of existing code, or that the survey participants don't view them as maintenance tools, but only as development tools.

[tms020348]

Re:RPG Maintenance Tools Survey Results

** This thread discusses the article: RPG Maintenance Tools Survey Results **
Concerning David Abramowitz's comment about IBM and the tools SEU and PDM: I agree with you that IBM has continued to ignore the tool-users on the i platform. Indeed, I think that how IBM has treated the initial developers of those tools over the years has been exceptionally sad. But part of the problem has been that IBM never treated the tools as potential revenue generators, and customers on the IBM i always seemed to think that IBM should give all its tools away for free as a part of the System i package. The results, imo, is that IBM's internal tool developers were always begging for resources. Indeed, many left and started tool companies on their own. The greater problem, however, is that customer management still finds it difficult to cost-justify the purchase of more advanced maintenance tools for the system. Management would rather reinvest in rebuilding an application than in purchasing tools that might modify the existing applications. In a nutshell, they'd rather throw their money after new software than fix what currently exists. The economic climate today, however, might help these managers come to terms with the folly of this short-sightedness.

[wbois]

Re:RPG Maintenance Tools Survey Results

** This thread discusses the article: RPG Maintenance Tools Survey Results **
Hi everybody, I'm sorry I missed out on this survey. Interesting statistics. As a P/A using CA 2E (aka SYNON2E now owned by Computer Associates) for over 14 years now, maintaining existing and enhancing generated RPGIII or RPGIV ILE applications. Our problems very rarely require source debug as most issues are not the program structures themselves but more typically related to misunderstanding of process flow or data relations. The tool has been quite viable over the years and is invaluable for quick development of back end applications called via SQL Stored Procedures from Java browser apps. Working with RPG at the source level lost it's appeal to me a long time ago. I prefer to work the business and data level using a tool that creates the source.To EFNKAY, I cringed when you spoke of modifying apps outside of the Case tools that generated them. Over the years I have found very little that required me to step outside of the normal capabilities of 2E, to accomplish something, and even then I was able to provide awareness to the Data Model from an impact analysis standpoint. Some of our Business Analysts can read enough of 2E diagram code to even help in researching problems, without knowing RPG. My issue with management's lack of interest or direction is not the appplication tools as much as that the database needs to be modernized to be more SQL centric. The new tools then really flow from the data model driven environment. Having been data model driven all these years I can appreciate the flexibility and ease that RBDi provides with EGL. It's model based development very similiar to what I've been exposed to using 2E. I've been trying to get my management to invest in RBD EGL and the Eclipse environment for some time now, but still no go. We have a few seats installed, but can't get the directive. So in the meantime, I continue creating SQL SP's for the Java group and using 2E, awaiting management to have an epiphany.

[D.Abramowitz]

Re:RPG Maintenance Tools Survey Results

** This thread discusses the article: RPG Maintenance Tools Survey Results **
I have previously posted paragraphs stating that I felt IBM's work developing the 5250 and standard programming environment to be incomplete. My travels to a variety of shops tell me that I am not alone in that assessment. Everywhere I go staffers and management will discuss their wish lists and will often complain of a lack of action on IBM's part. Perhaps this is an opportunity for readers to state their own bullet list of native programming wishes. Whatever the desires, it should be something that could be accomplished easily by IBM, but due to policy of 5250 abandonement has never been done. Here are two of mine: [ul][li]The ability to mix fonts and font sizes on a 5250 screen.[/li][li]The ability to easily print in color on any color printer.[/li][/ul] Dave

[cherev]

Re:RPG Maintenance Tools Survey Results

** This thread discusses the article: RPG Maintenance Tools Survey Results **
The System i (AS/400) already has the Report Design Aid and Screen Design Aid tools, why not a XHTML Panel Design Aid one? (One that also allows creating CSS2 files and links, like the Quanta tool for Linux...) If any recent RPG could WRITE data items directly into XHTML pages stored in the POSIX or '/' filesystems, someplace selectable, then any browser could display these.

[efnkay]

Re:RPG Maintenance Tools Survey Results

** This thread discusses the article: RPG Maintenance Tools Survey Results **
It's difficult to recall what it was on multiple occasions that had to be done in either USRSRC chunks (I believe this source type existed for the things the tool couldn't do.) and/or other things that the tool couldn't fix or properly generate the code...It was so long ago. Code generators are good for what they do. You can get entry-level programmers and strong high-level users up-to-speed quicker at generating your simple programming requirements through action-diagraming, without learning RPG. Downside: Keeps them from learning RPG. And if something needs "enhancing" beyond the tools capability at whatever current version, it was 99% of the time not worth the effort required to upgrade the tool to get the alleged capability. Or a work-around was just easier than attempting to make the tool generate the desired RPG. This wouldn't occur of course if you didn't already know the resulting working RPG code that you wanted the tool to generate. It's Ok to be action-diagrammers...But that's when a long reach into the old skill-set tool bag returns status...Empty!

[info@databorough.com]

RPG Maintenance Tools Survey Results

** This thread discusses the article: RPG Maintenance Tools Survey Results **
I think the biggest problem IBM has had is that very few of the IBM Software developers for i know much about how actual RPG and COBOL is used in the real world. They know what could be done and have generally focussed feature and function on this. They rather guess at what should be in their tools, rather than knowing through experience and listening. This is great for companies like ours, and the figures in Thomas's report make me feel great how we have invested in solving the two main problems he has summarized from his research. As time goes by with less RPG skills being available, and systems still growing and becoming messier and less standardized, the demand for sophisticated analysis tooling will go up. Restructuring code into the most modern form of ILE for its own sake won't necessarily solve many problems either. In fact it often contributes to the overall problem of poor maintainability through over-engineering of design for technology sake. Simpler less glamorous clean ups of existing messy code will more often produce a better commercial solution for a company, in a technology stack which is at best in care and maintenance mode.

Stuart Milligan - Databorough