Are RPG Programmers RPG's Worst Enemy?

[R.Khoury]

** This thread discusses the article: Are RPG Programmers RPG's Worst Enemy? **
Tom, I've been an IBM midrange consultant for 31 years and on my own for the last 25 years. I must have been fortunate that I've been able to continue to upgrade my skills and incorporate newer RPG features (RPGIV, subprocedures, service programs, /free), SQL, QShell, Email, and more at my clients. It's probably due to the fact I've worked at smaller shops or where I've been the sole developer.

The only advice I can give is for those stuck as described is to keep trying otherwise our system (AS/400, iSeries, i) will be put out to pasture and us along with it.

Thanks again for your thought-provoking article.

[T.Snyder]

** This thread discusses the article: Are RPG Programmers RPG's Worst Enemy? **
That's great news! I'm glad to hear it. Now that I'm in a shop that encourages the use of the latest technologies and integration with other systems, I realize that not every place is like that and I'm glad to hear that is the case for you and for others.

I have however received some messages from people who not so lucky. In one of the messages there was a good point of not staying in one place too long if it is not enhancing your skill set.

I know I was at the oppressed job for too long, but the location I was working at was slim in the job department for tech jobs and to make a physical move to a different location I wanted to update my skills to get a better job, but I was being held back. So, I was in a catch 22 of not being able to get a better job because of my limited skill set, and not being able to update my skills on the job. I suppose it's a good retention method to keep your employees under your thumb and not have to pay them what they are worth.

I did manage to do it myself; it just took a lot of after-hours dedication. The biggest thing I needed was the on-the-job experience that was just out of reach. The one good thing was that from all the years of being held back from doing what I wanted to do, I could see all of the parts of the system that were lacking, so once I was able to start doing things the way I wanted, it was like winning a shopping spree at a store that I already worked at for 10 years, so I knew exactly where all the low hanging fruit was at and I ran right for it.

Thanks for sharing your experiences. It's great hearing from you!
Tom

[Guest.Visitor]

** This thread discusses the article: Are RPG Programmers RPG's Worst Enemy? **
Programmers are looking a little bit like their favoured programming language and a programming languagle looks like the people behind it, in the special case of RPG, like IBM and its marketing.
let me begin with the second: IBMs marketing told the custumors that RPG is a programming language, they would not need any programming skill, every barber could write programs, using RPG. As a result of this, we still have quite a lot of non programmers writing RPG code and some programms looking like a headdress cut by a programmer. This dream of not needing programmers, or should we call it a nightmare, is the starting point of the story. The one and only platform RPG survived on, is AS/400 (or as it is called today, how its called tomorrow, we don't know anyway, so let me stay at AS/400). IBM marketing was talking about total cost of ownership and investment protection and their custumors didn't invest so much in their software and every shit, ever written in RPG is still running on every AS/400, ever sold by IBM. As a result of this, we have lots of 30 years old programms, running on 20 years old hardware in companies, who didn't invest in IT for many years and the next step often is new software, running on new Hardware (no AS/400), written in the programming languages of today, C++, C#, Java, maybe ABAP.
Talking about RPG, it has evolved, but its far away from beeing competitive with the modern programming languages. At the big step to ILE, prototypes where introduced at a time where protototypes disappeared in the step from C to C++, C# and Java, same thing with binding at compiletime and copybooks. Additional funny things like binder language and binding directories where invented. Other features didn't come up, like true mixed case code, declarations still are looking like punching cards. RPG still has no exact definition of the language, no reserved words, code working with one release might break at the next release because a feature migrates to a bug or a bug is declared as a feature.
Comparing RPG with modern languages, there is no support for multithreading (i.e. synchronisation), no support for errorhandling by the compiler (compared to java), no sufficient type checking by the compiler on the other hand Datatructures where "enhanced" by OVERLAY, instead of removing redefinition of storage completely from the language.
Its not surprising to me, that the RPG mainstream has his feet deep in the passed century.

Dieter Bender

[T.Snyder]

** This thread discusses the article: Are RPG Programmers RPG's Worst Enemy? **
I suppose if you took any individual language you could tear it apart for what it has or doesn’t have. But, I don’t see the ability to easily code it as being a drawback. Nor do I see backward compatibility as being a drawback either. These two issues are probably the biggest goals that other languages that you have mentioned are constantly trying to achieve.

I would think if you have 30 year old programs running on 20 year old hardware, then that software must have been written right the first time to have lasted this long and it’s still doing its job. And look at all the money you’ve saved on that hardware. I do not condone neglect on keeping your system up to date, but your comment made me think of the “set it and forget it” concept that is big in the Linux community, and obviously in ours.

I suppose you could see ease of programming as being a problem if your shop allows complacency with the skill set of your staff, or if you do not encourage your staff to learn more and provide training avenues for your programmers. (Or if management is preventing you from using it) But, that is something you have to deal with whenever you provide freedom of choice and the flexibility to support all different flavors. You could keep it simple, or you could make it intricate. But then again, you could utilize modularity to encapsulate complexity and provide its capabilities in a simplistic form; this is what my coding philosophy. Then all levels of skills within your staff could take advantage of the full spectrum of facilities available.

As for removing things completely from the language; I don’t think I would want a change that would break all of my existing code. I could possibly see a compliance parameter on the compiler that may implement stricter rules on how the programs are built, but not as something that would force you to rewrite and compile everything. That would go against your statement of breaking at the next release.

I think a lot of these comments come from the stigma that exists about RPG not being a modern language and I will not be one to participate in propagating this philosophy, and you may be battling with this concept yourself.

ILE stands for Integrated Language Environment. I take this quite literally. You could take advantage of these capabilities to use the strengths of RPG and integrate it with other facilities that are available to extend the capabilities of RPG. I see RPG as being the HUB of the system that works with other languages. The classic “Why Reinvent the Wheel” comes to mind when you have all of these capabilities available in other languages that have already been developed and have been tested and are stable and you could just access them from within RPG.

Salty Dogs with years of business experience in RPG that could provide the most insight on HOW and WHY the software is doing what it is doing, versus a shiny new conceptual programmer who only knows HOW the software works that may be in a different language. I think if you combine forces of the seasoned WHY programmers that may have the HOW knowledge in a different language and integrate that with fresh HOW concepts to utilize different technologies, then you have some great software that is not only conceptually ideal, but also achieves the ultimate goal of providing solid, usable, competitive software to your users. How many environments can you do that in? Unless the WHYs already have experience, there is quite a climb for that person to learn the HOW. And with the green programmer, there's also quite a few years of experienced needed to learn the WHY.

When you remove all the hype, you could look at SQL and say it doesn’t do all of the things that RPG does. You could look at Java and say there is a steep learning curve, but you wouldn’t say that with RPG. But, they all have their purpose, and if you integrate them all together you have all of the knowledge and all of the capabilities.

With so many years of backward compatibility you have the choice to decide which methodologies to use. And if you want to stay competitive, then you'll want to set and enforce your own rules. Would you prefer that the compiler dictated what you can and can’t do, or would you rather be given the freedom to make your own decisions? To me, RPG is the code of the free that plays well with others.

It could be your perception that RPG is living in the past, but I don’t know if you’re not seeing what is really out there. When integrated with other languages, what can’t it do? I’m not saying RPG alone is the way to go, I’m saying you need to open up to see all the options and how you could integrate them together, this is “modern” thinking. Have you ever seen all of the languages that are put together to create web pages? There’s quite a few. But, the thing is, once you know how to code, in whatever language, you know the WHYs of coding you just need to pick up the HOWs. Then start connecting the dots.

The RPG’s Worst Enemy topic was talking about how others in your staff could be holding you back. But, sometimes I guess it could be within you. I would take a step back and have another look at what’s out there. You may be surprised at what you find. And really look through all the hype that being thrown at you about why you shouldn’t use RPG, then really look into it and see if it’s true.

Thanks for your comments. I respect your opinions and I suppose I have a thread running in the back of my mind with your words on it, which is good. You need to think about these things and evaluate what your options are. You need to put these concerns out there into the forum of discussion and let it fight the fight; which is what you are literally doing. You can’t just blindly accept a philosophy based purely on what other people think, you need to evaluate it for yourself and make your decisions based upon the facts.

Happy Coding, Tom

[Guest.Visitor]

** This thread discusses the article: Are RPG Programmers RPG's Worst Enemy? **
This is a great thread. I have been feeling "stuck" as an RPG programmer for a while now. It's a dilemma because I have a great job and I should be grateful to have it in this economy. However, I am working with old code on an old release of the OS. This motivated me to learn C# but I still feel like it would be tough to make a lateral move to a job where I could use my newly acquired skills. It really is a catch-22 -- employers want developers with "real world" experience but if you're stuck programming with an old release of an old language, how do you get that "real world" experience? This thread has motivated me to keep learning and developing a portfolio of apps written in modern languages. I am increasingly feeling like it may be time to make a move soon, even if it means a pay cut.

[Guest.Visitor]

** This thread discusses the article: Are RPG Programmers RPG's Worst Enemy? **
... for Java (and its not far away from C#) there is an easy way to get "real world experience": join one of the open source projects. All Java programmers with some experience and AS/400 knowledge are invited to take part in my Open Source projects ArdGate and AppServer4RPG. AppServer4RPG provides high performance integration from Java components in RPG, one application running on top of it, is ArdGate. ArdGate provides a level of database connectivity, you couldn't even buy for money, enabling native SQL access (STRSQL, embedded SQL, QMQRY) to any JDBC database (Oracle, MySQL, MS SQL Server) including reading and writing XML, CSV and Excel files.

Dieter Bender

This is a great thread. I have been feeling "stuck" as an RPG programmer for a while now. It's a dilemma because I have a great job and I should be grateful to have it in this economy. However, I am working with old code on an old release of the OS. This motivated me to learn C# but I still feel like it would be tough to make a lateral move to a job where I could use my newly acquired skills. It really is a catch-22 -- employers want developers with "real world" experience but if you're stuck programming with an old release of an old language, how do you get that "real world" experience? This thread has motivated me to keep learning and developing a portfolio of apps written in modern languages. I am increasingly feeling like it may be time to make a move soon, even if it means a pay cut.

[T.Snyder]

** This thread discusses the article: Are RPG Programmers RPG's Worst Enemy? **
Open source is a good way to get experience. Or you could possibly participate in volunteer work for a charity where you donate your time to helping out with a software development project.

Another thing you may want to look into would be Certification. There are good guides out there to prepare you for certification that will direct you to knowledge that is relevant to attaining a job. And the end result will be a reputable document that you could list on your resume that proves that you at least know enough about the material to pass a test that challenges your knowledge.