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Confusion on buying a used iseries

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  • Confusion on buying a used iseries

    you would be required to license any LPP's. That is IBM would sell you the license. I think IBM will until 4/1/2007, if that is the date support is scheduled to be dropped on 5.2. IMO, If I were in your shoes and really needed a better machine, I would contact an IBM BP and find out what type of specials IBM is running. You never know......

  • #2
    Confusion on buying a used iseries

    By LPP's I am assuming you mean TCP/IP, Query/400, ILE RPG, etc (excuse my ignorance). We wouldnt use any of those on the new 270. Query isnt built into any of our software. If someone happened to stumble into the query/400 menu accidentally I dont think any red lights and sirens would go off, not that we would use it intentionally un-licensed. I guess you can say we dont really need a better machine, but at the price they are willing to sell it to us I can't hardly refuse. Even talked with some used hardware people and they said go for it cause they couldnt touch that price.

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    • #3
      Confusion on buying a used iseries

      Go LICPGM and select option 30 to review the license agreements for the licensed products installed on the server. Get a written agreement that the sale of the server includes the sale and transfer of licensed products to you. Software subscription is a contract with IBM to receive new software updates and not needed to continue using earlier releases.

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      • #4
        Confusion on buying a used iseries

        It is my understanding that the current owner transferred the licenses to his i5 for any LLP's he was using. I think that rules out the transfer of them to me. When it comes to me being licensed to use the O/S and not the LLP's, does that mean I can't use anything that isn't 5769-SS1 ?

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        • #5
          Confusion on buying a used iseries

          Buying used IBM equipment is a bad choice. a basic 520 po5 with all software and LPP is about 14000 retail. It comes with a years hardware maintenance and a years software maintenance. The full compliment of LPP's cost 1800.This box is at 5.4 compare this to an entry 800 po5. after release 5.2 the lpp's can not be transferred. that means a cost of about $2400 to bring the software maintenance current plus 1 year software maintenance @ 2400 plus the cost of the LPP's @ $8000. this is equivalent to the purchase price of the entry level 520 IBM has priced the software in such a way to make it extremely un attractive to buy used equipment. It is also a nightmare getting the equipment transferred to your company which must be done prior to purchasing any hardware or software maintenance. If the paper work is not exactly perfect you can be sitting with a system that has no valid keys after 71 days. Brokers will sell you the Hardware and the OS but will not handle the purchasing of the LPP's or the transfer of the title to your name Since the box was not purchased thru IBM your local sales office is unlikely to assist you thru this paper work maze a business partner will refuse to work with you because you didn't buy the box thru them/ The entry level 520 will run circles around a entry level 800 and does not have the headaches or cost to bring the box up to current rev levels. "DON'T MESS WITH USED IBM EQUIPMENT". you will regret the decision

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          • #6
            Confusion on buying a used iseries

            Another problem you will experience if the oS is not at the same level old machine at 4.3 new machine at 5.2 is IBM has designed the OS to be upward compatible from 4.3 to 5.2 for example. It is not backward compatible 5.2 to 4.3 . a save at 5.2 can not be restored on a 4.3 system. So make sure both systems are at a compatible OS level or you will have major problems. this is not a hard fast rule. IBM does allow moving backups from 5.2 to 5.1 for instance.

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            • #7
              Confusion on buying a used iseries

              I can see both sides of this issue and I'm glad people are talking about it here. I often have seen good deals (on the surface anyway) of buying a used iSeries machine and have thought about getting one for personal use at home to develop and run some of my personal projects/ideas for software. I would never consider buying a new machine for personal use at home because I just always assumed it would easily top $10,000 of which I have better use for 5 digits of cash. If indeed it is true that IBM makes it so tough to buy this used equipment, they should reconsider this policy. Seems like a waste to just junk this sort of hardware. Surely something productive can be done with them?

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              • #8
                Confusion on buying a used iseries

                a few more points about used equipment and release levels a machine at 4.3 does not require a valid key for the lpp's. it does require a valid system key and a valid key for the OS. after 4.3 keys were required for both the OS and the LPP's You may use the LPP's for a period of 71 days without keys. At that point in time you are required to supply the key or to scratch the system and do a complete reload from the IBM load CD's. There is a maximum number of times you can scratch and reload the system. I do not know what that count is but your up a creek when you reach that number. If you are running this system in a production world you better schedule the machine to be down for a few days just to accomplish this process. you can not obtain PTF's on a system that is not under software maintenance If you change the load source or the processor board you must get a new system key from IBM. If you do not go thru the process the machine will shut down in 71 days. the system key is not the same as the the key for the OS. It requires from 4 to six weeks to obtain a system key from IBM IBM reps are required to validate the configuration change has not been altered in such a way to cause the machine to be shifted into a higher processor group thus requiring an additional charge to pay for the difference in the operating system software upgrade charges. This charge can be considerable. OS in a p10 group is about 5 times the cost of the OS in a P05 group. the LPP's cost difference is about 5 times as much also. This process alone requires all the paper work is in order before IBM will supply the new key. IBM will allow you to downgrade from a higher processor group to a lower processor group at no charge, but you'll need deep pockets to go up a processor group. You will also beat your head against the wall trying to straighten the paper work out. You must have a valid IBM customer number You need proof of purchase from the original owner the original owner must transfer the title at IBM from their customer # to yours. You need the original proof of entitlememnts from the original owner. The person who has the proof of entitlements has the rights to the software. Running software on a machine if you do not have the proof of entitlements is illegal and you could be subject to buying the software again if you can not produce the POE's POE's are now kept on record as an electronic document at IBM after rel 5.2 That red black and white striped folder delivered with a system contained the POE's IBM will only supply CD's that contain the latest OS and LPP's. they will not supply you with an old OS or LPP's. You must obtain these CD's from an alternate source

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                • #9
                  Confusion on buying a used iseries

                  I'm glad you posted this. We needed this info. I had posted only a week ago how I was hoping that the iseries software development package was the same price for a small used but recent 5.3 box as the consultant's version listed on IBM's website. In that case it looked like a good used 5.3 development and web server box could be had for about $10K. Which is still a lot of money but from the specs the box had the power to run 30 5250 sessions. Even the small ones are powerful. But apparently not to be. If IBM thinks they will force people to buy new iseries with their shenanigans, they had better check their sales figures again. This does the exact opposite. If IBM made cars and made it prohibitively difficult and expensive to legally buy and run a used IBM car, would you run to an IBM dealer and buy a new IBM car? Well, no, most people wouldn't. What can you do with your car after three or four years? Trade it in to IBM for another new one? That's the only choice you would have, because that's the only choice they allow you to have. I'm hard core AS/400, and if I can't develop and run 5250 session software as well as CGI web server software, and I can't do it on a reasonably priced used box, then who will? IBM can continue controlling and milking their remaining enterprise customers as they've been doing with interactive taxes and restrictions on licensing, but I've got a clue for both IBM and Microsoft with their new Vista restrictions. Your days of doing that are over. Open source Sun Solaris and Linux will gladly take your customers, customers who value your products, but not that much. If I were you IBM, I'd count an OS license for a used box as a new customer if that's what it is, and be daggone glad to have one. That's the only way innovative software is going to be developed for your OS, if you even care about it anymore. If you don't, people will develop on Linux, and it won't involve your restrictive licenses, or you at all for that matter. rd

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                  • #10
                    Confusion on buying a used iseries

                    There is one way to buy used and upgrade to the latest release without having to pay full price for LPP's A system at 5.2 that is transferred to you with the proof of entitlements to the LPP's can be upgraded to 5.3 or 5.4 without having to re pay for the LPP's. this cost on a P05 will be $2400 to bring the software maintenance current and $2400 a year for software maintenance. Once this is done you can order the new release from IBM. you will only receive the upgraded LPP's that your are registered thru IBM as owning thus the reason for having the POE's in your name. If a used system is at 5.3 you can not do this. At rel 5.3 the POE's could not be transferred out of an enterprise to another customer. you will have to pay full retail again for all of the LPP's (about $8000 on a p05). The POE's can be transferred to another box if the box is in the same enterprise (company) This basically is saying a customer who upgrades to a newer machine will probably retain the POE's. A machine obtained from a customer who is no longer an IBM customer has no need for the POE's. for this reason the market for used IBM's with valid POE's is severely restricted. Again the nightmare is straightening out the records at IBM to reflect what has happened . The T's must be crossed and the I's dotted. Used IBM vendors hate to go thru this hassle so make sure the contract you have with whoever you purchase the equipment from is very specific in what you are purchasing and who is responsible for straightening out the paper work mess with IBM.

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                    • #11
                      Confusion on buying a used iseries

                      That 270 will only support OS versions up to V5R4. When IBM releases the next OS version, you'll need a new box to run it. Probably not the best choice. Kent

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                      • #12
                        Confusion on buying a used iseries

                        We have an opportunity to buy a used 9406-270 (P10 group). We currently run a 9406-170 (P05) and are at v4r5 (no software subscription but thats not my issue). The 270 has v5r2 on it. I have talked to three different people and gotten three different opinions on what we have to do to get licensed to use the "new" 270. It is my understanding that the Core O/S comes with the box, so by buying the 270, we automatically are licensed to use the OS. Any extras we want (websphere, query, rpg, etc) we will have to purchase licenses for. What is stopping me from doing this: Buying the 270 and running it as a production only system (running our home developed business software on it). Using our current 170 as a development machine where we write the code and test it before porting it to the production machine. Do I *HAVE* to have a software subscription?? Is someone going to come and take me away in handcuffs if I dont? Dont get me wrong, I want to do the right thing. But I also dont want to shell out tons of money for something that I may not need. I need some guidance here. Keeping in mind that this opportunity fell in our lap and my company is not budgeted for an additional 10K in "software expense".

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                        • #13
                          Confusion on buying a used iseries

                          I've been told there wasn't any limit to the number of re-installs that could be done by someone who sells that kind of equipment. Is there some real documentation on this or is this just an assumption?

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