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  • Article: Downsizing jobs, outsourcing lives

    Susan, It's the price of improved worker productivity. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Susan Behrens" wrote in message news:6ae6ba8b.-1@WebX.WawyahGHajS... | ... The American economy will be employing fewer engineers, accountants, information technology workers, stock analysts, radiologists, architects and research and development scientists - all highly trained top earners who ought to form the backbone of a vigorous and vibrant economy. And I'm talking the lock, stock and barrel loss of careers, not a temporary shortage of jobs. ... | | <http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=32789>

  • #2
    Article: Downsizing jobs, outsourcing lives

    Susan, I've never been a real supporter of the visa argument. Obivously, I've never been in favor of foreign nationals displacing American workers in American firms, but it's been my opinion (and still is) that our industry in particular is its own worst enemy, contributing to its own demise by its workers insisting that each new generation of tools make their job easier and easier, which in fact makes it that much easier to outsource these positions. However, my recent research into the entire issue, especially the L-1 visa, have finally swayed me into your camp. I'm not sure how swayed I am yet - is it silent fuming swayed, vote with my ballot swayed, write my congressman swayed or protest in the street swayed? I've yet to decide. But in any event, I am now firmly opposed to any extension of or increase in H and L visas, and believe that a serious investigation of firms taking advantage of them should be undertaken (both the foreign companies and those American firms that employ them). Joe

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    • #3
      Article: Downsizing jobs, outsourcing lives

      I can't help but think that a strong motive for management to outsource anything is a silent way of being able to give away their responsibilities. I have seen "business decisions" that really didn't make much sense in relation to outsourcing. The only thing that did make sense was that those managers would not be in a position of accepting blame. Management would have to "manage" the contract but it would be much easier than managing employees.

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      • #4
        Article: Downsizing jobs, outsourcing lives

        Scott said: "I can't help but think that a strong motive for management to outsource anything is a silent way of being able to give away their responsibilities." Wow! This is a pretty myopic statement. We have 43 retail stores in 7 states plus a headquarters location with about 900 people. We only have 7 computer support personnel (tech support) to support all of those locations. Often we have an emergency at a location that may be 1500 miles from where the nearest support person is located. It may take two days for an employee to get to that store. That's completely unacceptable. We've engaged an outsourcing company that can guarantee that they'll have a tech support person at any location within 4 hours of a call. And, the cost is considerably less than a plane fare on short notice. To label that as "giving away responsibilities" is a little strange. I call it being responsive to the business needs. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

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        • #5
          Article: Downsizing jobs, outsourcing lives

          Wellllllll, I suppose that the "guarantee" takes you off the hook, if no one shows up! OTOH, one scenario is that is if on-site support needs are very few, then the fee paid will exceed what the cost would have been in-house. Naturally the converse is true if there are many on-site support needs. Somewhere in the middle, there is a break-even point. Dave

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          • #6
            Article: Downsizing jobs, outsourcing lives

            Chuck, Some managers are doing what is best for the corporation and some are doing whatever they can to hide themselves from blame and responsibility. Recently, I have seen - and - am talking about the latter. I guess I should have made that clearer that there are good managers out there. If you are doing what is best for the business, then you won't have any trouble sleeping at night will you.

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            • #7
              Article: Downsizing jobs, outsourcing lives

              There is another reason. Managers may have outsourcing thrust upon them by executives, and then told to make it work or else. The executive just had lunch with the auditing partner, and guess what, the auditing firm has a subsidiary firm that performs outsourcing services, and will (of course) save the executive's company a lot of money and improve the bottom line. And just to be on the safe side, how can the board go against the executive, when it was the auditing firm's recommendation in the first place. If the whole thing goes south, as it often does, you get to see a rather large circular firing squad. Dave

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              • #8
                Article: Downsizing jobs, outsourcing lives

                The discussion thread implies there is something wrong with outsourcing. Let's not forget that there are plenty of American companies hire displaced workers when a business outsources it's IT services and the employee usually gets better pay and benefits and a much better environment for professional development. This is the type of outsourcing we should be encouraging as opposed to "offshore" outsourcing.

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                • #9
                  Article: Downsizing jobs, outsourcing lives

                  Let's not lose focus/track on this very important subject that we all should stay aware of and hopefully united on. Foreign outsourcing is the key point here, not outsourcing in general. (or ranting about dodging responsibilities.) Displacing American workers is a huge problem for the short and long term US economy by foreign workers. We are number one when it comes to technology and we are training droves of foreign workers who first take our jobs through work visas. Second, they will start foreign businesses that will later compete directly with us. We have to pay US workers more to build schools, roads, and maintain the lifestyle many take for granite. Take a trip to other nations and you will find how fortunate we are. We should all guard against threats to our way of living and this is definitely one of them.

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                  • #10
                    Article: Downsizing jobs, outsourcing lives

                    "KCM2" wrote in message news:6ae6ba8b.8@WebX.WawyahGHajS... | Let's not lose focus/track on this very important subject that we all should stay aware of and hopefully united on. Foreign outsourcing is the key point here, not outsourcing in general. (or ranting about dodging responsibilities.) Displacing American workers is a huge problem for the short and long term US economy by foreign workers. | | We are number one when it comes to technology and we are training droves of foreign workers who first take our jobs through work visas. Second, they will start foreign businesses that will later compete directly with us. We have to pay US workers more to build schools, roads, and maintain the lifestyle many take for granite. | | Take a trip to other nations and you will find how fortunate we are. We should all guard against threats to our way of living and this is definitely one of them.

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                    • #11
                      Article: Downsizing jobs, outsourcing lives

                      To all, I like all of the handwaving about outsourcing. It's somewhat amusing. In a similar vein, it'd be interesting to take a poll of all of those that oppose outsourcing to foreign companies and ask them if they own, or have ever owned, a foreign car. Many oppose foreign entities, such as foreign labor, when it hits close to home. Yet, they've lived their lives not backing their talk with their wallet. To me this wreaks of sour grapes. While it's not possible to isolate one's self and purchase only 100% American goods certainly we all have control over the "second most expensive investment, next to a home" that we make. And, don't start with the uninformed line, "but American cars are crap." Personally, I've owned 8 American cars since 1971 and have had nary a lick of trouble. My wife and I, combined, put about 60,000 per year on our cars and we keep them 8-10 years. Also, don't give me the line, "my foreign car was built in the U.S. by U.S. workers." You still DIRECTLY contributed thousands of Dollars to a foreign government and thousands of dollars of profit to a foreign company when you purchased that foreign car. In effect, you outsourced a lot of DOLLARS. I can proudly say that I haven't contributed thousands of dollars directly to the German government only to have them turn around and stab my government in the back when we needed them. Moral to my story? People who live in glass houses.... chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

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                      • #12
                        Article: Downsizing jobs, outsourcing lives

                        I'm not sure I understand your point Chuck. It appears that you seem to think that all people who oppose foreign outsourcing are driving foreign cars. I'd like to think that contributors to such an important issue would avoid syllogism, ad hominym, petitio principii, and tu quoque, at least in the same sentence. Dave

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                        • #13
                          Article: Downsizing jobs, outsourcing lives

                          My point was simple: People wait to do something until it hits close to home. They like to talk about a global economy, drive a Mercedes, drink French wine and then when they get laid off because their job was outsourced to someone in southeast Asia they want to gripe that about the global economy taking away their job. Personally, it all just appears to be sour grapes to me. The best way to keep employed is to have valuable skills. If your job can be outsourced then your skill set is a commodity. Make your skill set unique, be flexible in your living location and have a positive attitude and the odds are in your favor to have a life of full employment. As an aside, it appears that you "glossed" over my post as I don't recall saying that I thought all people who oppose foreign outsourcing drive foreign cars. I only said I'd be interested in a poll. YOU made the leap and the assumption. I also made no personal attack upon you or anyone in this group. I recommend that advice to you also. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "David Abramowitz" wrote in message news:6ae6ba8b.11@WebX.WawyahGHajS... | I'm not sure I understand your point Chuck. It appears that you seem to think that all people who oppose foreign outsourcing are driving foreign cars. | | I'd like to think that contributors to such an important issue would avoid syllogism, ad hominym, petitio principii, and tu quoque, at least in the same sentence. | | Dave

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                          • #14
                            Article: Downsizing jobs, outsourcing lives

                            Chuck, It's not "sour grapes" for me or anyone else who has never been laid off. I moved away from coding into management, and because of that my job is not directly threatened by H1-Bs and the like - at least not in the short term. I believe sending jobs overseas is bad for the country, period. No sour grapes, in fact, the more jobs get shipped offshore the more my skills will be needed to manage the "offshore resources". I am against this practices because I feel it's hurting the economy and our national security. For one, I am uncomfortable with the idea of our financial and banking systems being run on computers in countries with unstable governments and easy access to terrorists. I am very capable of empathy for someone who has been laid off without having been through that experience personally. If you want to attack the idea, that is your prerogative. But please refrain from making personal judgments about our motives ("sour grapes").

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                            • #15
                              Article: Downsizing jobs, outsourcing lives

                              Susan said: "I believe sending jobs overseas is bad for the country, period." But that's been happening for over a century. You may have heard me say it before... I didn't see programmers up in arms when the textile industry moved off shore. I didn't see programmers up in arms when television factory line workers' jobs moved off shore. I didn't see programmers up in arms when migrant farm workers started taking over all of the farm labor jobs. It's only now, when a programmer's job is threatened, that we hear that moving jobs off shore is bad for the country. Our country has survived many industries being moved over seas. Our economy has changed much over the last 200 years. It will survive the movement of programmers' jobs also. Susan also said: "For one, I am uncomfortable with the idea of our financial and banking systems being run on computers in countries with unstable governments and easy access to terrorists." Susan, there is NO part of the world that is safe from terrorists. That's just a fact of life. Susan further said: "I am very capable of empathy for someone who has been laid off without having been through that experience personally." Alas, so am I. I was sad when my father was laid off when Packard Bell television closed it's doors and moved to Mexico back in 1973. I didn't wait until this century to empathize with jobs being moved off shore. And, unlike you, I HAVE felt the pain of being laid off. And, within this decade. I KNOW what it's like. But I didn't sulk around and blame everyone else. I picked myself up, sharpened my skills, and got a new (and even better) job. I didn't want, ask or expect pity from others or help from the government to run interference for me. I expect no less from others. While I can empathize with a person who is laid off, I will not pity them. It's their JOB to outpace the tides of change. Here's a poem I have taped to my monitor. It was written by my hero, John Wooden. "Remember this your lifetime through, Tomorrow there will be more to do. And failure waits for all who stay With some success made yesterday. Tomorrow you must try once more, And even harder than before." In other words, don't rest on your laurels. Get busy, learn new things, stay ahead of the curve. And most of all, EMBRACE CHANGE. Take care, chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

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