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Article: Downsizing jobs, outsourcing lives

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  • #16
    Article: Downsizing jobs, outsourcing lives

    "I like all of the handwaving about outsourcing." Note, Chuck, that I didn't say anything about outsourcing. I am specifically against H and L visas, which in effect "insource" foreign labor. Yes, if programming becomes a commodity then it's going to go to where the lowest bidder is. That's my primary argument against pushbutton programming, and the reason I'm always calling for a rebellion against the dumbing down of the industry. When a job is outsourced, it's because the foreign company getting the business has spent the time and money to put together the necessary infrastructure - anything from a steel mill to an auto assembly plant to a programming sweatshop. But the H and L visas are not about outsourcing, they're about bringing in foreign labor to supplant American workers on American infrastructure. And in the programming industry in particular, much of that infrastructure (configuration of networks and so on) was probably built by the workers being displaced! So there's a real difference here. Visas are one thing, outsourcing another. Joe

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    • #17
      Article: Downsizing jobs, outsourcing lives

      I was not attacking you Chuck, I was merely seeking clarification as stated. I also threw in a bit of sarcasm. BTW, I drive a Buick, and the nitrites in most French wines give me a headache. Your most recent post could have started out with "There are people who wait. . . . ." rather than "People wait. . . ." If it was not your intention to lump everyone together, I apologize for not understanding that based upon the wording. Dave

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      • #18
        Article: Downsizing jobs, outsourcing lives

        I would like to reiterate a point I made in a recent article: The shipment of jobs to offshore locations, and the replacement of U.S. citizens by foreign workers is technology neutral. In fact, I believe that if you look at the bulk of outsourcing efforts, you will find that most of these projects do not center around AS/400 technology. Smaller shops tend not to have the financial resources, or project definitions that outsourcing companies require. Learning new skills will not help. I'm not saying that new skills are a bad thing. A wide set of skills will certainly broaden the possibilities of a job search. OTOH any skill that an individual may have, can be replaced by an outsourcer, or an H1-B holder under today's current condition. Under current policy, we are unnecessarily decimating our own technological resources, and generating a great negative incentive at Colleges and Universities to major in something else. I would strongly suggest that the effort to persuade congress to change the current M.O., is a positive effort, and far more pro-active, and far less fatalistic than merely embracing change. Dave

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        • #19
          Article: Downsizing jobs, outsourcing lives

          David said, "Learning new skills will not help. I'm not saying that new skills are a bad thing. A wide set of skills will certainly broaden the possibilities of a job search. OTOH any skill that an individual may have, can be replaced by an outsourcer, or an H1-B holder under today's current condition." Bingo! The jobs I see moving overseas are not jobs that require unique skills. And the jobs I see being filled by H-1Bs can be performed by American citizens. David, I agree 100%. It's great to learn new skills, but the problem is that the jobs are leaving the country due to $, not because qualified citizens cannot be found to do the work right here.

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          • #20
            Article: Downsizing jobs, outsourcing lives

            David said: "Learning new skills will not help. " I beg to differ. At every company that outsources there will be at least one person needed to coordinate the outsourcing effort. That would be a very valuable skill indeed. If one says, "that's not something I want to do" (which is something commonly heard about learning new skills) then one must swim in the polluted pond and hope to stay alive. There are lots of similar situations where new skills will not only make a person more valuable, often they can be very rewarding also. I say it's better to be in the clean pond, be employed and be happy rather than grumble about the pond around me becoming stagnant. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

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            • #21
              Article: Downsizing jobs, outsourcing lives

              Susan, What you are seeing is what happens when a job skill becomes a commodity. Market forces at work. Sure there Americans that can do the work. And, believe me, they'd be doing the work except for one thing: They're too expensive. When something becomes a commodity then the winner is the one with the lowest price. Trying to change laws to protect a high price seldom works. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Susan Behrens" wrote in message news:6ae6ba8b.18@WebX.WawyahGHajS... | David said, "Learning new skills will not help. I'm not saying that new skills are a bad thing. A wide set of skills will certainly broaden the possibilities of a job search. OTOH any skill that an individual may have, can be replaced by an outsourcer, or an H1-B holder under today's current condition." | | Bingo! The jobs I see moving overseas are not jobs that require unique skills. And the jobs I see being filled by H-1Bs can be performed by American citizens. David, I agree 100%. It's great to learn new skills, but the problem is that the jobs are leaving the country due to $, not because qualified citizens cannot be found to do the work right here.

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              • #22
                Article: Downsizing jobs, outsourcing lives

                Check Ackerman wrote: At every company that outsources there will be at least one person needed to coordinate the outsourcing effort Check it out Chuck, , , , ,in almost every instance, the coordinator is the vendor (of outsourcing). I know this first hand, as I was asked to do this. After investigating, I found this to be a common practice. Your comments about expense are also rebutted by studies of outsourcing. The fact is that by and large, outsourcing delivers an inferior product, takes longer to produce, and by TCO measurements is bad for the bottom line. Don't take my word for it, there are plenty of brain trusts who have issued white papers on this sort of thing. Providers and vendors may have the inside track, and expound unfounded platitudes can often get the sale. Particularly if they are big name acconting firms. Which leads me into the next topic - - - Accountants are next to be outsourced. It is already happening. Accountants are far more pervasive than I.T. people, and have more clout in congress. It would be most interesting to find that the role of I.T. protector will fall to the accounting industry! Dave

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                • #23
                  Article: Downsizing jobs, outsourcing lives

                  So what I gather from the comments made is that we in the technology field must either conform into being a manager of the outsourced jobs or change professions. How many managers do you think will be needed within a company to oversee the outsourcer? And where do you believe the jobless being kicked out can go for work? There are lots of people without jobs right now that would appreciate this knowledge. I am advising my young family members to not enter the IT field. So what options do they have? Should they get a business degree? Maybe a job as a hair stylist because I do not necessairly get my hair styled overseas. What field will be able to handle the IT jobless?

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                  • #24
                    Article: Downsizing jobs, outsourcing lives

                    Scott Walker wrote: I am advising my young family members to not enter the IT field Unless there is some legislative relief, I agree. As previously stated, the accounting profession is about to face the same situation. My personal situation is that I have just recently signed a contract. This may not mean much. I have my eye on selected franchises if the situation worsens. There is a certain amount of empirical predictability, but I would not want to call the shots in this case. There's too many "ifs" in the equation. Dave

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                    • #25
                      Article: Downsizing jobs, outsourcing lives

                      OK. Here's my two pennies. I am not going to debate if outsourcing is "good" or "bad". I think that all depends on your particular angle. I will recall another thread which, I believe Susan made the point, that she had to deal with complete idiots at her outsourced division. Programmers who couldn't program, bilinguist's who weren't, schedules which were not met. "It's the quality of the work stupid"! The absolute worst thing about outsourcing overseas, is the complete lack of their understanding of the business modules, and programming procedures, we natively employ. This, coupled along with the outsourcee's inability to effectively communicate with their stateside department coordinators, becomes a real pain and detriment to a company's productivity, and employee morale. I think the real point here is, experienced, highly technical, programmers and administrators in this country, are being put out to pasture, while those of us remaining, watch threads in these forums from "Bombay Louie", such as "How do I turn on an AS/400"? And some of us, are actually stupid enough, to answer them.

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                      • #26
                        Article: Downsizing jobs, outsourcing lives

                        Scott said: "I am advising my young family members to not enter the IT field." When I was in college you could have said the same sentance but replaced "IT" with "aerospace." At one time, aerospace engineering was the hottest thing. However, even today, there are jobs for aerospace engineers. There will always be jobs for IT personnel, that's not the issue. What is the issue is making sure that you can rise above the crowd when an opening appears. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

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                        • #27
                          Article: Downsizing jobs, outsourcing lives

                          Has NASA ever considered outsourcing the engineering jobs to individuals that they do not know? Are H1-B or L1 employees being hired as Aerospace engineers? TTBOMK even in private industry, there is a certain amount of security clearance required that precludes the wholesale replacement of U.S. citizens by others. Dave

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                          • #28
                            Article: Downsizing jobs, outsourcing lives

                            I don't know about NASA. I do know that I had a momentary period of time in high school where I wanted to be an aerospace engineer. Then I got my hands on a computer and was sucked into the vortex! chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "David Abramowitz" wrote in message news:6ae6ba8b.26@WebX.WawyahGHajS... | Has NASA ever considered outsourcing the engineering jobs to individuals that they do not know? Are H1-B or L1 employees being hired as Aerospace engineers? | | TTBOMK even in private industry, there is a certain amount of security clearance required that precludes the wholesale replacement of U.S. citizens by others. | | Dave

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                            • #29
                              Article: Downsizing jobs, outsourcing lives

                              Chuck, Susan is making some very valid points and she is not spinning off on tangents. You seem to take an opposing stance at every issue just to disagree with any and all points posters make. You analogy on cars, textiles, and furthest from the point NASA doesn't hit the mark. With autos we still assemble them here with a big percentage of U.S. parts. Textiles workers aren't considered highly skilled. NASA has been addressed above, this is just goofy. The point is Offshore Outsourcing takes away highly skilled, high paying jobs that we need, nothing to argue here on this point. Counter points until people lose focus or the will to do something about is part of the problem. Please butt out if you can’t add positive suggestions to this real problem. I am in Mgt, and when I get the question posed to me who about using NON US labor my answer is always NO. These reasons stated in this forum along with communication barriers and poor work that ensues. These have proved my point. We should all do what we can to combat this period. Letter writing to Washington included.

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                              • #30
                                Article: Downsizing jobs, outsourcing lives

                                KC, Ok, let's get my point clear. My stand will always be: Less government is good. I don't buy into the Democratic party's "the bigger the better" when it comes to government regulation. I will almost always take, as you say, the opposing point of view if it involves more regulation. You hit the nail on the head when you said, "high paying jobs." If we want to live in a capitalistic society, and certainly that's where I want to be, then we MUST accept the fact that the best value will generally always win out. Whether it's products or people, whenever something is overpriced it will eventually lose market share and eventually go away. I, under no circumstances, want to be in a socialistic or communistic society where the government props up professions that can't stand up to the competition. We all know what happens then. I, for one, will not be writing Washington on this. Now, having said that, I do my share. I've never entertained the idea of hiring H1B or outsourcing my programming. That doesn't mean I don't have diversity, though. I have Russians, Iranians, Koreans and Mexicans on my staff. I'm a strong believer in the rich and robust ideas and opinions that are achieved with diversity. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "KCM2" wrote in message news:6ae6ba8b.28@WebX.WawyahGHajS... | Chuck, | | Susan is making some very valid points and she is not spinning off on tangents. You seem to take an opposing stance at every issue just to disagree with any and all points posters make. | | You analogy on cars, textiles, and furthest from the point NASA doesn't hit the mark. With autos we still assemble them here with a big percentage of U.S. parts. Textiles workers aren't considered highly skilled. NASA has been addressed above, this is just goofy. | | The point is Offshore Outsourcing takes away highly skilled, high paying jobs that we need, nothing to argue here on this point. | | Counter points until people lose focus or the will to do something about is part of the problem. Please butt out if you can’t add positive suggestions to this real problem. | | I am in Mgt, and when I get the question posed to me who about using NON US labor my answer is always NO. These reasons stated in this forum along with communication barriers and poor work that ensues. These have proved my point. | | We should all do what we can to combat this period. Letter writing to Washington included.

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