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It's not about competition, folks...

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  • #46
    It's not about competition, folks...

    I must be ready for the recylce heap. None of this seems goofy to me. I don't want to keep technology away from any country, but if we don't keep up and then one up we will pay with our freedom. Our freedom and present and past standing in the world(if you don't like my pronouns, boycott me, don't read em')was won with the use of technology by people with values. Without values we are just a bunch of animals preying on each other. When I was younger American values were good. I will continue to fight to keep em good and pass those on to my grandchildren. We cannot benefit if we knowingly let the cistern run dry. It is not wrong to believe in things and fight for them. It is only wrong if it is bad things. The wish to live in a strong country that stays strong is not a bad thing. It is not a bad thing to wish to survive. Look around at weak countries. We, we , we.

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    • #47
      It's not about competition, folks...

      Or are the supposed IT intelligentsia less sophisticated than I assumed?
      You can count on that! :-)
      Bigtime CEO fires hundreds or thousands of employees telling them, "Get a Life!". Spends millions on training and schooling his new-found slave..oops, Work Force in said Pacific Rim Country instead of investing in his Homeland (where he lives High on the Hog) by re-training and educating the People he has just fired and forgotten.
      Look at the post again. Nowhere in the quote did it say that Intel was spending money over there. The way I read it, they're just selling systems to those who will buy them. Bizniz and all that... Globalism is here. What we are accustomed to is changing rapidly. We need to become accustomed to that and do what we can to stay competitive. Personally, I'm glad it's at least an American multinational corp selling them systems, rather than one from another country. At least they still have some roots here, even if the chips are probably manufactured elsewhere. The question and debate is, what can we do to keep them here, make sure they contribute their fair share for the benefits derived from being here, and to add enough value so that we can keep jobs here as well? Brian

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      • #48
        It's not about competition, folks...

        Sounds like the "American Way" to me! ;-) chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "bobtheplanet" wrote in message news:6aea2e89.45@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > Is there a cultural gap here?... Or are the supposed IT intelligentsia less sophisticated than I assumed? > > Let me lay it out fer'ya Singy, baby! > > Bigtime CEO cries "foul" when he discovers the workers in his Homeland crave to live in a manner in which they are accustomed to. "Are they not knowing the Freedom of Capitalism is True Enlightemment?", he thinks. > Gets on the phone to the nearest Pacific Rim Country, "Can you make your people eat dirt for a quarter?". "Sure, come on over" is the reply. > Bigtime CEO fires hundreds or thousands of employees telling them, "Get a Life!". Spends millions on training and schooling his new-found slave..oops, Work Force in said Pacific Rim Country instead of investing in his Homeland (where he lives High on the Hog) by re-training and educating the People he has just fired and forgotten. > > Get it NOW?

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        • #49
          It's not about competition, folks...

          I recently had an interesting exchange that typifies, in my mind, how the outsourcing process will ultimately fail for companies. My son (23) signed up for a credit card at Old Navy to receive a discount on his purchase. (That, of course, was his first mistake.) He then "offshored" himself for several months, traveling in Cambodia and Thailand. He never received the credit card, nor any credit card billing statement. When he returned, he received a telephone call from someone claiming to work for Old Navy collections. The person identified himself as working in the credit department, saying that the bill for a $50.00 pair of pants was never paid, and that the bill -- with penalties -- was now at $150.00. Would my son like to make payment with another credit card now, over the phone? My son, of course, said he'd never received the bill, nor the credit card. No matter, said the Old Navy bill collector. He had to pay or his credit rating would be dunned. OK, said my son. But I have no other credit card. "Send me the bill, and I'll take care of it," he said. "No can do," replied the Old Navy employee. "You have to take care of this now. Do you have a checking account?" "Of course." "Then give me your checking account number, and I'll withdraw it over the Internet." At this point, my son was a bit confused and asked me to listen in. "Where are you located?" I asked. "How do I know you are, really, an Old Navy employee?" He told me he was calling from India, gave me his employee number, etc. I asked him "Are you an employee of an outsourcing organization?" To which he replied "Well yes! I work for GE Financing!" (In the background, I was sure I could hear people humming "America the Beautiful", and I instinctively knew why they thought it was so beautiful: We made the Internet.) I said "Give me a telephone number where I can check up on your employment status. I won't give you the account numbers to my bank account. Who do you think you're calling? An American?" "Sorry. You can't call me directly," said the Indian employee who claimed to work for Old Navy, but who really worked for somebody else, who was owned by GE. "But if you have a problem with this, you can call Old Navy, directly." I said "I DO have a problem with this! You could be anyone running a scam!" "No! No! I'm a legitimate person!" But he gave me the telephone number anyway, which I called, and ended up AGAIN in India. (Reach out and touch someone....) So, instead we finally called the Old Navy corporation itself, and talked to someone in Cleveland to express our outrage. As it turned out, yes, the person in India was legit -- working through another company (GE) who had outsourced to a large Indian collection agency -- and yes, the person was following Old Navy policy book for collections. In fact, the person in Cleveland actually had the record of the call on their screen. We took care of the transaction appropriately -- she reduced the charges back to the original $50.00 and prompted the credit department to make certain that the billing address was correct, and sent my son a real credit card. And the person in Cleveland -- who was very much aware of the outsourcing issue -- secretely prompted us to write a message to the Old Navy corporation. (Her job meant something sort of important to her, too.) However, the experience was very sobering for both me and my son -- who had just returned from a third-world country where poverty and a need for jobs is real. In our minds, however, there wasn't much difference between this outsourced service in India and the daily emails we both receive from ousted regime leaders in Nigeria and South America -- no adequate identification, no adequate security, no validity checking, and -- ultimately -- a request for access to funds. I estimated that we spent, in total, about an hour and a half on the phone with the guy from India, and about five minutes on the phone with the woman in Cleveland. It wasn't a language thing that made the difference. It wasn't the distance thing either. It was the simple fact that the person in Cleveland was concerned about providing service to her customer, and the person in India was concerned about making the collection. The person in India didn't care that my son had never received his credit card, and had no concern that he had never received an invoice for his purchases. He didn't care if my son NEVER purchased another thread of clothing from Old Navy. He worked for somebody else, on behalf of Old Navy, in another country, on another continent, in a galaxy far away. He made probably half as much money as the woman in Cleveland, but he took at least ten times longer to make his collection. He was cordial, polite, intelligent, and ineffective. But, ultimately, the system -- as it exists now -- was corrupt because it ruined the customer experience for the benefit of paper savings. BTW: "Everyone, please send me the user ids and passwords to your bank accounts. I know you didn't get the credit cards I sent to you, but that's not my fault. I really don't care that your identity was stolen: You owe me money. And "Yes," I was recently removed as president of my small third world country, but I was -- fortunately -- able to stash a considerable amount of money before they caught me. With your help -- and a little electronic hacking -- I think we can all be rich together in India." What's the difference? Makes perfect business sense to me!

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          • #50
            It's not about competition, folks...

            Brain said: "It's my belief that we need to do everything we can do as individuals and collectively to compete on an international level to keep our country what it has been and is." And protective trade barriers always have been and always will be part of an intelligent strategy to allow gradual economic harmonization without global instability. It's worked fine for centuries as countries build themselves. Japan is a perfect example. It has never made sense for countries to compete on a dollar-for-dollar basis when one country's standard of living is one-tenth the other. There is no competition. Joe

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            • #51
              It's not about competition, folks...

              And protective trade barriers always have been and always will be part of an intelligent strategy to allow gradual economic harmonization without global instability. It's worked fine for centuries as countries build themselves. Japan is a perfect example.
              Not according to history and experts such as Alan Greenspan. Do a Google search for "protective trade barriers" and read what you find (from credible sources). Then add "Great Depression" to those terms and hit it again. Some argue that the stock market crash was more of a cause than the protectionism that came 6-7 months later, but others counter that the market anticipated the laws coming because of the delay between discussion and implementation, and that's one reason the market crashed. I think that's a reasonable theory. Japan, with its protective trade barriers and guaranteed jobs, has been in a very tough, decade-long recession that even ultra-low interest rates and high exports haven't been able to bring back. One of the reasons why India and China are doing so well is that they adopted some of the trade policies that the US has been preaching for so long. It's my understanding that they have a ways to go, but they're going. There are lots of ways we can do better, but protective trade barriers don't seem to be one of them. IMHO, about the only thing our government can do to discourage off-shorers is what David suggested above. The other thing they can do is whatever it takes to encourage entrepreneurs and small and large businesses, in the hopes that we can keep an edge that way. And foster education as much as possible. There are many, many stories of offshore failures. Perhaps there are opportunities right there, helping companies bring it home, for example. Brian P.S.: The SBA has all kinds of helpful stuff. That's my version of the "American Way". I have also recently had a chance to visit my local Chamber of Commerce, which I found very inspiring. P.P.S.: Sorry for the long rant. I guess I'm as passionate about this stuff as you are. ;-)

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              • #52
                It's not about competition, folks...

                Brian (not Brain, sorry about that ) said: "the market anticipated the laws coming because of the delay between discussion and implementation, and that's one reason the market crashed. I think that's a reasonable theory." This is silly. The market "anticipated" the laws. Now we don't even have to use cause and effect for our conversations, we can instead posit a predictive marketplace. Karnak of Wall Street! Also remember that all of your "history" is posited on those old 19th century models that don't take into account the ability for the top jobs to bemoved offshore. It's the skimming of the top that's killing us, something that was never possible before. The order that works is for lower-tech jobs to be farmed out after being supplanted by higher-tech jobs - jobs that could not be farmed out to the lower standard of living countries because of simple geographic difficulties. Now, though, we're farming out the high-tech jobs and wiping out the economy. It's like anything - without moderation, people tend to over-indulge. Corporations have been outsourcing the low-tech jobs for a long time, with the common sense result that emerging countries pick up those jobs and build their economies and their standard of living to the point where they can naturally compete without poaching jobs from other countries (as ths visas do). But now the corporations can outsource the high-paying jobs, too! And their greed is so rapacious that they'll do it with no regard for American workers, as has been shown by the past four years of nearly zero job growth. If you look at the employment figures and still insist that this is a good thing, then you and I have different ideas about "good". Anyway, you believe that Wall Street acts based on the future. Me, I just look at the facts, and the facts are that America is being destroyed. Or maybe that's what you consider "good". Joe

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                • #53
                  It's not about competition, folks...

                  Thank you for sharing this experience. It speaks volumes. A friend has sent me a link of a webiste, that has an offer which many of you may want to consider: http://www.cafeshops.com/itpaa.9604355 Dave

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                  • #54
                    It's not about competition, folks...

                    This is silly. The market "anticipated" the laws. Now we don't even have to use cause and effect for our conversations, we can instead posit a predictive marketplace. Karnak of Wall Street!
                    Well, like I said, it sounds reasonable to me, as I believe people invest with an eye towards the future. But it is just a theory, and there are lots of those. The State Department has a slightly different one. It's my understanding that the trade barriers and the retaliations they brought certainly didn't seem to help matters. The theory (again, a theory) regarding job churn is that resources will be freed to do other things, hopefully better ones. And those that don't innovate can work for those who do, so there's supposed to be net job creation. That's the theory I choose to believe and implement whenever possible.
                    ...America is being destroyed. Or maybe that's what you consider "good".
                    Are you calling me a traitor? That's an awful thing to do for someone who merely has a difference of opinion, and it's an uncivil way to discuss/argue. I hate how we (figurative) are becoming so polarized as a society that anyone who has a different opinion is an idiot or a traitor. We really need to pull back on that so we don't come apart at the seams. We're all in it together. Brian

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                    • #55
                      It's not about competition, folks...

                      Now there's an example of innovation at work! That guy's gonna be rich. :-) Wish I'da thoughta that. Brian

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                      • #56
                        It's not about competition, folks...

                        Chris said: "Even if Best Buy did go bankrupt , that means their competition needs to hire people because their competition picked up a few billions dollars in extra business." Well, a good example is when Circuit City close its doors in my area, no other electronic store pick-up the slack. Now Gateway is closing too. Who will hire these people ? So your point is very way off. Joe said: "A boycott is also a time-honored American tradition, hailing back to the Boston Tea Party. You might try reading a little history before trying to tell me what is or isn't American." Oh yeah!!! Your talking of America, still a colony of the British Crown. And by the way BOSTON TEA PARTY is not a boycott, it's a revolt. In parallel to that event, it's just like going to BestBuy, pick-up any merchandise and throw it outside the garbage can( instead at the Boston harbor). But, we're talking here of a free, modern and vibrant AMERICA Joe were the rule of law should be uphold.

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                        • #57
                          It's not about competition, folks...

                          Kumar, That's too bad about those businesses leaving your area. Are you in a small town? Maybe the area just couldn't support those businesses. Usually where ever you find a Circuit City, you find a Best Buy, HH Gregg, etc nearby. You can always shop online, you know, www.circuitcity.com, etc. Who knows, maybe the web sites are maintained companies in India! Chris PS: I found a great website on outsourcing, ITPAA, if anyone is interested

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                          • #58
                            It's not about competition, folks...

                            Kumar, We seem to have a very different understanding on an important point. It is NOT my responsibility to ensure that every business that opens a store stays in business forever. Yes, it is VERY unfortunate for the people who loose their jobs, but it happens (I've been there).... for all sorts of reasons. Remember folks...these are MY opinions

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                            • #59
                              It's not about competition, folks...

                              Hi all. I got an MC email update and clicked into here. Been a long time. I was laid off last fall and all my complaints the past few years turned out to be depressingly true. I hate to be right all the time. For the moment I'm publishing a book unrelated to programming, so we'll see how long that keeps me going. Hopefully long enough for a job to be brought back onshore. Nice thread, I saw nearly everybody in it. My thoughts: I agree with almost everything everybody said, which is a major first. I had to give up trying to buy Made in USA several years ago. I literally couldn't find the tag anymore. When I asked for it, I was asked if I was with a union. It's just plain true that manufacturing jobs by the millions were lost and no one complained about low prices from stuff made elsewhere, although I complained to any sales clerks within earshot, usually none, that quality and service was apparently out of fashion. The new public awareness of our jobs crisis is only peripherally related to IT, actually probably only those in the IT profession and their loved ones are aware they are being affected as well. It's the continuing massive loss of manufacturing and now customer service jobs that has gotten the attention of the masses. Those 8.4 million unemployed are joined by everyone else scared their job is next. It's nationwide, and it even has people more worried than Iraq. That's literally scary. I'm a Democrat and strongly support Kerry, but the 10 million jobs and Bush's projection for this year of generating 3 million jobs are based on numerical requirements having absolutely nothing to do with reality. The exact number projected by Bush was enough to replace the jobs lost in his term and add a few hundred thousand. If the projection wasn't that high, then they would be projecting that Bush would be the first to lose jobs in a presidential term since the Depression. Whether he does or not, you certainly can't project it. Same with Kerry. With 8+ million unemployed and 100,000+ needed each month to keep up with population growth, so I keep readiing, 10 million is a convenient number that gives employment to all current unemployed and new entrants to the job market in his term. He has no more idea how many jobs will be created than I do of when I'll get my next job. Not to go off topic though, he does have an aggressive plan for developing national energy sources to replace importing some oil that is projected to create half a million jobs, so that's a good start on a number of fronts. On being active about doing something about our loss of jobs, I don't think anyone has been more active than Dave all these years. I was quite pleased to see that the efforts of many of you such as Dave and Susan and others on H1-B resulted in the quota reverting back to 64,000 despite the literal lies being told by greedy corporations and their shills. Lo and behold, I was amazed to start seeing RPG jobs advertised recently without the ubiqitous "locals only". Still no relocation, but there never was much in advertisements. But locals only was a killer. I was tempted at times, no I take that back, I did at times take up residence in parking lots behind Denny's to meet that requirement but those were tough times. Well, maybe these are tougher even. This is now the American worker against corporations who are looking for that boost to next quarters numbers by lowering labor costs. There is nothing in their calculus about the loss of their customers as they and other corporations lay off millions. When one does it, they think they've outsmarted everyone. When everyone does it, they've all outsmarted themselves. They better hope they get new Indian and Chinese customers because Americans won't have any money to buy anything. It's a boycott, but an involuntary boycott. Much more effective, unfortunately. Well, the theories are just that, theories. Greenspan and the free traders have no idea what they're doing. This is new territory, untrodden by economists who quite frankly never did know why anything did what it did. Ask ten economists a question and you'll get eleven answers. The free trade answer is it's good to make something for the cheapest cost, and if we don't someone else will. According to that logic everything will be done and made elsewhere, because there will always be cheaper elsewhere. Oh, but they can't innovate like we can, they say. That is a level of ignorant arrogance surpassed only by the Romans many centuries ago, and we know what happened to them. Ok, to solutions. I'll post a link to a post I made on my site and add something else here. In addition to all government purchases being of US made products competing on a balance of cost and percentage of domestic value, we have to drop out of NAFTA and WTO and impose a tarriff on imported products from countries based on the trade imbalance. For example, China's $100 billion trade deficit is 20% of our $500 billion annual trade deficit. A 20% tarriff would be imposed on imported goods made in China by anyone, including US corporations. Should the Chinese start buying enough US made goods to balance the trade then the tarriff disappears. Here's the link, and great to see you all again. Hope I can post something technical soon. A Call For Action On Unemployment http://www.justiceforchandra.com/for...pic.php?t=1397 rd

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                              • #60
                                It's not about competition, folks...

                                Ralph Dougherty wrote: On being active about doing something about our loss of jobs, I don't think anyone has been more active than Dave all these years. Thank you Ralph. Dave

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