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It's not about competition, folks...

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  • #91
    It's not about competition, folks...

    Kumar, once again I suspect language as the problem here. The WSJ memo was most certainly not dated April 5th. I suggest you read the following link to get the timing correct: Joe Pluta 4/8/04 7:48pm In it, I lay out the timeline of the situation. On March 19th, a memo was leaked. As late as March 27th, Best Buy was denying it. Finally, on March 31st, they admitted they were outsourcing, although there has still been no word as to who is gettnig the contract. The memo indicates Accenture, but nobody knows for sure. You and Dave400 have insisted that the jobs are staying in the country, but you have no proof of that. Accenture and EDS both use plenty of offshore workers, so there is no guarantee that if either of them gets the contract that it will mean work for American workers. Best Buy also works with Tata and especially Wipro, either one of which could get that particular work. Until you can prove that work is going to Americans, it is just as likely to go offshore. Finally, my position is actually not contingent upon where the jobs go. I see nothing to indicate that any company being considered for the outsourcing contract will pick up those workers. If they do get offshored, that's another issue that I will be certain to make remarks about. But to me the fundamental problem is that Best Buy is getting rid of workers just to gain a few cents of earnings per share, and that is a bad precedent. You and Dave400 don't address the fact that some 900 people in Minneapolis will be without a job (in fact, Dave400 seems to think it's a good thing). I'd be interested to see exactly how much money they're saving by putting people out of work in a tough economy. Joe

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    • #92
      It's not about competition, folks...

      You and Dave400 have insisted that the jobs are staying in the country, but you have no proof of that. Joe, I am not insisting the jobs are staying in the country. I am just not leaping to a conclusion they are leaving the country. I see nothing to indicate that any company being considered for the outsourcing contract will pick up those workers. The way I read the linked articles there was a suggestion that a number of the people would be transfered to the outsourcer. But to me the fundamental problem is that Best Buy is getting rid of workers just to gain a few cents of earnings per share, and that is a bad precedent. You and Dave400 don't address the fact that some 900 people in Minneapolis will be without a job (in fact, Dave400 seems to think it's a good thing). What about Best Buy is a precedent ?? Companies are always looking at ways to cut costs, and sometimes that involves a reduction in staff numbers. As Chuck points out the Companies have a responsibility to share holders.

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      • #93
        It's not about competition, folks...

        "What about Best Buy is a precedent ?? Companies are always looking at ways to cut costs, and sometimes that involves a reduction in staff numbers. As Chuck points out the Companies have a responsibility to share holders." And maybe this needs to be moderated. Maybe companies need to be held accountable to more than the bottom line. For example, how much money is this REALLY going to save? In what way? How much of these savings will actually get to the shareholders as opposed to executive bonuses? How much will this really mean in terms of earnings per share? Is that worth the social cost of putting 900 people out of work? Is anybody checking to see that these jobs are staying in the country? If not, why not? Back in the days before multinational conglomerates, there was at least some incentive to be loyal to your community, because if you weren't, your customer base voted with their wallets. These days, companies are only beholden to the 90-day stock price, and if we don't do something about that, we're all going to be out of jobs. Every glibly says "responsibility to shareholders", but that includes making sure there are still customers for all those high-priced consumer goods, as well as continuing to build community goodwill. Joe

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        • #94
          It's not about competition, folks...

          I just heard an awesome commercial on the radio by Good Year tires. They explained how Bridgestone, their competition, is replacing American workers by outsourcing jobs overseas, and if you want to support America, buy Good Year. I wonder how the Bridgestone board will react? Bring jobs back to America? Or take their chances for a year and hope the earnings are not impacted? I'll definitely choose Good Year over Bridgestone now... Chris

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          • #95
            It's not about competition, folks...

            Definitely awesome, Chris. More or less like you and Joe are saying, we have to make a difference with our purchases, at least for those who have a job and have something to purchase with. rd

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            • #96
              It's not about competition, folks...

              I wonder how the Bridgestone board will react? Bring jobs back to America? Or take their chances for a year and hope the earnings are not impacted? I'll definitely choose Good Year over Bridgestone now... Chris, Sorry I would prioritize tire safety and reliability ahead of a company's offshoring policy. Only if they both offer comparable performaning products at comparable prices would the offshoring policy be a consideration. Also Good Year Tires are listed on the Lou Dobbs Exporting USA Jobs and two weeks ago entered large outsourcing agreement with IBM in Europe. http://www.consultant-news.com/Artic...ay.asp?ID=1412

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              • #97
                It's not about competition, folks...

                Joe, I cut and paste the ff. for your satisfaction, the problem is not language barrier but I think your vision. Take note of the DATE please...It's very clear APRIL 5, 2004. I'm just re-stating the facts coming from this site. And as I have said before, I'm against OUTSOURCING and BOYCOTT, and I am a strong believer in a free wheeling market driven economy. --------------------------------------------------------------------- News Story by Carol Sliwa APRIL 05, 2004 (COMPUTERWORLD) - Best Buy Co. may join the collection of retailers that are opting to outsource a significant portion of their IT operations to major technology services companies.

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                • #98
                  It's not about competition, folks...

                  Kumar, you're just not getting it. The article you quote is quoting OLD NEWS. I'm not sure which words you don't understand. The very next paragraph said: "The Richfield, Minn.-based retail chain last week confirmed that it has been investigating outsourcing options for the company's IT and call center operations." LAST WEEK. Did you not catch that part? Oh forget it. I'm no longer even going to try. Joe

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                  • #99
                    It's not about competition, folks...

                    That's a good point, dave400, if Goodyear is listed on Lou Dobbs Exporting USA Jobs. The outsourcing of Goodyear Europe to IBM in Europe couldn't be the basis of it though. I wonder if Goodyear US has outsourced IT jobs? Their ad I would imagine is oriented to tire manufacturing being performed in the US, but it would be interesting to know if they have outsourced IT. There has always been the argument that IT is not a company's purpose in being, but real IT is a tool to make the company what it is. Companies that outsource don't get that. rd

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                    • It's not about competition, folks...

                      Here is a quote which I believe sums up the attitude of senior IT management towards staff. It's from a major North American company who is outsourcing: modified to protect company name ------------------------------- "We found that some people cannot retool, and they realize that. The challenge is that company-name is no longer a cradle to grave environment. Job security is no longer a guarantee. We see two different dichotomies. We are seeing people who are panicking and saying that this is not fair. Our Vice President used to say, company-name first, removed-text next and then contractors. That has now gone away. Some employees are embracing the changes and are happy to move out of, for example, the Assembler world and into something new. Others are scared to death because they know they cannot be retrained or they have been here for 20 years and done nothing but their current job. There will be casualties, no doubt. We have not seen it yet, but there will be some casualties as a result. There are anxieties, but it is pushing some to realize that they have to step up their performance and not sit around waiting for retirement." ------------------------------- I believe it's a good quote, maybe time for us to wake up and look for another direction in our career. I will not reveal the company name, our company is a member of this management group and emails are sent to me on a regular basis and are not meant to be public. The 'funny' thing about this email, was that it contained 3 case studies on companies doing outsource (all successes, one saved 10mil in 6 months) and the final topic was 'IT in a Recovering Economy - Meeting Summary'!!! Thanks Dave

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                      • It's not about competition, folks...

                        This quote raise many questions, David. It's difficult for me to envision computer programmers and network admins and project managers as sitting around waiting for retirement. The vision is more like a hamster on a wheel. I contest the usual industry chatter about "procedural" programmers not being able to adapt to "event driven" programming as we saw in one quote in this thread or any of the terminology used to describe object oriented programming, but the point is moot when RPG and Cobol programming jobs are being shipped overseas. And they are. Adapt or die, the free traders mantra goes. The only retooling going on is setting up to live in a cardboard box instead of a house. That is competitive to the third world. We should be so proud. rd

                        Comment


                        • It's not about competition, folks...

                          I contest the usual industry chatter about "procedural" programmers not being able to adapt to "event driven" programming as we saw in one quote in this thread or any of the terminology used to describe object oriented programming, but the point is moot when RPG and Cobol programming jobs are being shipped overseas. And they are.
                          The point isn't learning some new aspect of the same job, it's about retooling yourself to do something different, if necessary. It may or may not be necessary - that's up to the individual to decide, based on circumstances.
                          The only retooling going on is setting up to live in a cardboard box instead of a house.
                          If that's a person's choice, then so be it. But it doesn't have to be. Brian

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                          • It's not about competition, folks...

                            Dave, You make a good point, Goodyear is listed as exporting American jobs at cnn.com. I emailed Goodyear investor relations asking for an explanation. If I get a response, I'll post it here. Since Goodyear and Bridgestone are both giants in the tire industry, I'd say safety and reliabilty are both high. Actually, I avoided buying Bridgestone/Firestone tires a few years ago when they had the problem with tires peeling off cars while in motion. I'll listen to the radio commerical more closely next time I hear it. Chris

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                            • It's not about competition, folks...

                              Chris Ringer wrote: > I just heard an awesome commercial on the radio by Good Year tires. > They explained how Bridgestone, their competition, is replacing > American workers by outsourcing jobs overseas, and if you want to > support America, buy Good Year. That's an interesting way of looking at things, seeing as how Bridgestone is a Japanese company. Bill

                              Comment


                              • It's not about competition, folks...

                                Brian, you misunderstand my post, but there's a first for everything. I am saying I reject the incessant industry wisdom that many "procedural" programmers are unable to become "object oriented" or "event driven" programmers, used as an excuse to outsource IT shops overseas to people who were apparently never procedural programmers and so can grasp the intracacies of object oriented programming, if we are to believe this line of reasoning. Those sentiments are not expressed here, of course, but when I read that an IT staff is being eliminated because they can't retool, that is the excuse being made to send the jobs overseas for dirt cheap labor. As for not having to live in a cardboard box, what kind of housing were you envisioning for the hundreds of thousands, millions counting those who changed to something with a paycheck, of IT career people who haven't found a job in the last two years? Hopefully things are improving, but temp jobs don't buy much more than a cardboard box. The sentiment that the only thing standing between an unemployed programmer and another job in IT is retooling is belied by the across the board unemployment in all disciplines, unless something happened that you know of and you haven't told me yet. And in saying that, I want to add that that in no way endorses the concept that there ever was anything superior to Java over RPG for business programming. Quite the contrary. In my opinion, they will never get back to where we had it for business, and that is part of the current problem. All that was needed was a visual interface for the AS/400 and IBM would have had the superior business solution, but they became converts in selling Websphere running anywhere instead of the AS/400 being a uniquely superior solution, so here we are. I rejected it then and now. rd

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