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  • #16
    Sweet irony

    Chris: you stated "If we had wanted to deal with Iraq, that was the time to do it. I understand that there were reasons why we didn't but none of that justifies our current invasion of Iraq." Did you know that General Patton wanted to continue his invasion of europe and "take care" of the soviets BUT the DEMOCRATIC leadership WOULD NOT LET HIM?!?!?! All I can say is that we "followed the UNITED NATIONS criteria in 1990." That criteria told us (The USA) to only remove the invaders from Kuwait. Since the UN has been proven to be a WORTHLESS organization whose ONLY PURPOSE is to waste perfectly good real estate in NYC, we (The USA) did what needed to be done. PERIOD. If General Patton had been allowed to conquer the USSR, I firmly believe we would never have had the "cold war" nor would we be subjected to the useless and worthless will of the "UN". So, Presindent Bush did what Roosevelt would not allow Patton to do. HE HAD THE MILITARY TAKE CARE OF THE PROBLEM. That in itself "justifies our current invasion of Iraq" your words not mine. I have been to NYC, I have seen Ground Sero. I have talked with several NYPD and FDNY personnel who lost family on 9/11. I have heard the pain in their voices, seen the grieve in their eyes, felt the pain that they bear every day. Hussein, I am sure, contributed to the terriorists. Not directly, but though some manner. the invasion WAS JUSTIFIED. PERIOD. The ultimate justification was proven Saturday. History will show that. Just like history showed that we had to nuke IMPERIAL Japan. Otherwise SEVERAL THOUSAND US personel would have perished. Imagine if we had taken care of Hussein, went to Afghanistan and continue to look for Ben Laden. Who knows, your name perhaps would be on a memorial somewhere. Believe what you want, I do. The world is better today. It will be better once we remove the UN.

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    • #17
      Sweet irony

      You were the one that brought Hitler into this. The current situation is exactly what Brian said, a continuation of the invasion of Kuwait and its aftermath. And the reason it wasn't concluded at that time was to satisfy the same demands you have now ( to just give peace a chance) it never works, not then, not now, not 1941, not 1939, not ever. The reason you have these situations is that you have non game players that don't play by the rules you would allow them to use. They may tell you they will and if that feels good to you, so be it. But the only way to stop aggression is to use more aggression and stop it. If I am wrong in my thinking (and I could be) name one instance of a brutal dictator being stopped by diplomacy? (Stopping for a day or two, when the inspectors are invited in doesn't count)Just one. And Hitler gassed his own citizens, was that okay? Hussein gassed his own citizens, was that okay? History is brutal teacher.

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      • #18
        Sweet irony

        WOW, removing the UN. Sounds like you think the US should be running the world. I wonder what the rest of the world thinks about that? Isn't the UN run by a "democratic" process? similar to the one that we want to install all around the world???? Yes, I was aware that Patton wanted to invade Russia. What a great precident that would set for turning on your allies after they helped you fight a major war. That will make everyone want to help us in the next conflict. If Iraq was going to invade Saudi Arabia...why didn't the Saudis take preemptive action? So you THINK Iraq may have helped terrorists somehow at sometime. Wow, that sounds like a great justification for invading another coountry. What is the next country on our list to invade that MIGHT be aiding terrorists in some form or fashion?

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        • #19
          Sweet irony

          For the UN to be run by a democratic process would require those running the place to be democratic process believers and practictioners. Which I don't think you will find much of either. Do you think that when China votes they do it with democratic wishes? How about France? North Korea? If the process at the UN was run by the people of those countries ( or as in the case of the US, duly elected representatives) instead of their despotic or communist or socialist leaders then you would have a democratic or similar process. What exists now is anything but democratic. Or do you believe the corruption of the Oil for whatever it was program in Iraq that was perpurtrated on the people of Iraq by the UN a process that you would like to be practiced on you? Do you really want a bunch of dictators telling you what to do? Have you ever served in the military? Do you understand why we have one? Would you want to give ours up for UN protection? Do you like the USA? There are people lined up to get in, very few lined up to leave and go to those countries that the UN leaders are from. I'm just trying to understand you, you may very well love your country and just have trouble with the war. Some of the people I have been exposed to who have trouble with the war, seem to have trouble with my country too. signed a peacetime volunteer who believes in the big stick

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          • #20
            Sweet irony

            Joe Pluta wrote: the truth is that we did NOT go to war over WMD I hate to split hairs over semantics, and that is the truth, but it just does not jive with the facts. One needs to shift their memory back to a good year to six months prior to the bombing. In fact the only justification given to the world for military action was WMD, and the WMD message was repeated over and over. The WMD message was presented by Colin Powell to the UN. The president issued the edict that "He was sure there were WMDs in Iraq" There were also many insinuations that the weapons inspectors were incompetent, and/or not doing their jobs the way they should have. Every day, it was WMD WMD WMD. Many in congress who would have been opposed to the war, were convinced that there was a WMD threat, and voted for military action, based solely upon a threat to the nation from WMDs. It is easy to leave that behind at this point since the administration has not been mentioning WMDs at all as of late. If the rationalization of military action can be justified due to dictatorship, despotism and demaguogery, then that should have been stated from the beginning. My feelings are that if we are to put our boys in harms way, we better be ultra-honest with our reasons. Dave

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            • #21
              Sweet irony

              YES I have served in the military in Vienam. To imply that I do not like the US because I disagree with some of our policies is an insult to me AND the democratic process!

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              • #22
                Sweet irony

                If Iraq was going to invade Saudi Arabia...why didn't the Saudis take preemptive action?
                They did - they called us.
                So you THINK Iraq may have helped terrorists somehow at sometime.
                Does direct monetary payment to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers count? I know we're not their direct target, but that's one example of Saddam helping terrorists. Do you think he would not take every opportunity he could to get us? BTW, the UN is working to make itself obsolete. It can huff and puff all it wants, but until it's ready to throw down to back up its demands, it's a paper tiger that anyone can thumb its nose at. Look at Iran being more receptive to nuclear inspections now. It would not have been if the USA wasn't on two of its borders. That makes the world a safer place already. Hopefully, if we can set a good example of democracy in Iraq that can be followed by its neighbors, no other countries will be invaded. I know, that's a big hope given some of the gaffs we've made since the invasion, but things _still_ can turn out right. Brian

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                • #23
                  Sweet irony

                  Chris Scholbe wrote: We were happy to leave Hitler alone as long as he stayed within his own borders. Actually no, , , , , ,,,,, The allies ignored Hitler's invasion of the Rhineland, the Anschluss of Austria, and even blessed (shamefully) the annexation of the Sudetenland. Churchill, a lone voice in the wilderness warned the U.K. about Germany's military build up in violation of the Versailles treaty as early as 1935! It was only because of a mutual defense pack between Poland, France and the U.K. did the Chamberlain government eventually declare a state of war when Germany invaded. Dave

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                  • #24
                    Sweet irony

                    What is your alternative to the UN? Create a new body and include only the countries that we like? Sounds like the beginnigs of another cold war to me. I believe that we need to find a way for all countries and peoples to get along...not necessarily be the same. I believe that people should be able to live without fear of their government torturing and killing them. I believe that people shouldn't go hungery. These may be altruistic, but I think they are goals to aspire to and work for. The question is how do we make these things happen? Is military action the ONLY way to address these issues? I think not. What do you suggest?

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                    • #25
                      Sweet irony

                      Brian Singleton wrote: the UN is working to make itself obsolete For two years, I sang in the UN Choir. As part of the process, I learned a great deal about the UN. There are a great many charitable and humanitarian efforts that are undertaken by the UN, that otherwise may not be done at all. These are fully funded highly organized efforts. The U.N. quietly takes a peacemaking role in many conflicts, most are only briefly mentioned (if at all) on the 6:00 news. Yes, the U.N. has some very serious problems, and yes many nations forget about the U.N. charter, but taking a more comprehensive, and informed view, I feel confident stating that I believe we would be in far far worse shape without it. Dave

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                      • #26
                        Sweet irony

                        we would be in far far worse shape without it.
                        I agree, and I'm not one who calls for disbanding it. But in this case, the UN didn't act to enforce its own rules. Brian

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                        • #27
                          Sweet irony

                          I asked to find out who I was dealing with, because if you had answered different I would have went on my way. You do seem to imply that we are not at war now. I believe we are. I believe we are in much more danger as individuals in the present war then when we were in the cold war. It is good the cold war is over, the big stick is the reason it is over. We are in a war now where we are on the top of target and the only world power with a big enough stick to fight back. And I am glad we are fighting it right now somewhere else. By the way I do think that WMD's were definitely 'part' of the reason for going into Iraq. I can't see the problem here, since the WMD's were documented by the UN, and verbally acknowledged by even President Clinton. And I believe this will be justified down the road. What ever happen to national security. Do any of you really believe total honesty and openess will win a war. Why did I have a security clearance, then? Wars are fought with words as well as bullets. Somebody help me out here. I remember seeing a picture of one of the 911 terrorists in a face to face meeting with an Iraq intelligence officer shortly before the attack? Am I the only one who remembers this? Am I losing it? Do those dots connect? Do you think our leadership should tell us blow by blow what they intend to do and why? I for one don't. I think I voted to let them do their thing for 4 years. If at the end of that time I don't like what they have done, out they go. If only the Iraqis had had that option, what do you think? Humanitarian goals and the UN probably work because the USA probably pays more than its share. Military goals don't seem to work, probably because of the personal motivation of most of the worlds leaders. I state again: People (not leaders) of plenty of countries are lined up to come here....(in effect choosing the USA, not the UN). If the UN is the answer why do they want to come here. The UN might have been a good idea. It just doesn't seem to work. And I don't think it has a chance until most of the leaders of the world are of a true democratic bent.

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                          • #28
                            Sweet irony

                            So the question still remains. What do we do to make our world a safe place to live? You said "And I don't think it has a chance until most of the leaders of the world are of a true democratic bent." How do we get these leaders to have a "true democratic bent". And Yes, when it comes to invading another country...I expect a whole lot more information from our government. Your argument that the UN is failing because people are choosing to come to the US is simplistic. The UN is not a country. People are coming here for many reasons, many of which have to do with the government in their country and many of which have to do with the living conditions in their country. When you say we are at war now, I assume that you mean that we must be ever vigilant because of safety concerns. We must ALWAYS be vigilant, the only differnce now is the creativity of the bad guys to cause hurt and death. In that sense, we are always at war...and we should never forget that. We win some of the battles but the war continues.

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                            • #29
                              Sweet irony

                              It usually is the simple things that get you. How do we get those leaders to get bent democratic? Simple, We don't. The people in those countries have to do it themselves, just like we did over two hundred years ago. You can't install a democracy. Of the people is how. If the people of Iraq or of wherever don't embrace democracy how can it work. They have to want to be free and willing to pay the price forever. I didn't say the UN was failing because of people choosing to come here. I said that supporting the UN in its current incarnation supports the status quo, of dictators and their firm grip and oppressive living conditions, which drive people here, so why support that system. That seems mighty simple to me. This is funny and simple to me: Dictators voting on removing other dictators. Or: Countries voting on sanctions on a country that they are currently selling weapons to. How can I take this serious? We are at war. Not peacetime vigilance. Do you remember 911. These individuals had multi country backing. Some that our government has been less than truthful about so far. And some that are paying a steep price as we speak. And it ain't over. How do you make the world safe? Hope the good guys have the bigger stick.

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                              • #30
                                Sweet irony

                                You don't change the way people think by military invasion. Having said that, I hope that the people in Iraq feel as though they can start installing a system that will be prosperous for all. The military has never changed what people think...they have only attempted to install a form of conformity. And this usually fails in the long term. We can see this in the resistance movements in all wars dating a long way back. Mosquitos are small and we attack them with big sticks....are we winning that battle? We are so focused on democracy. What happens if the people in Iraq don't want a democracy, at least as we are used to it? Are we willing to accept that?

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