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  • Global Sentiments

    Joe said: "But the overwhelming sense I got was that there are a large number of people in India who mistrust and/or hate America." I suspect that most of the world's mistrust for Americans is really a mistrust for American politicians. And, being an American, I think their mistrust is well founded. It's the nature of the profession that politicians will do whatever is necessary to keep their jobs. That includes lying and cheating. So, it's only natural that we, and the world, distrust them. The response you received from the Indians is only to be expected. I'm surprised you were "floored." chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

  • #2
    Global Sentiments

    Actually, Chuck, if you read the post I was floored by the pro-Hussein sentiment. But thank you for your input. Joe

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    • #3
      Global Sentiments

      Chuck said: "I suspect that most of the world's mistrust for Americans is really a mistrust for American politicians" I agree, Chuck. We are extremely lucky that most of the world is much better at making this distinction than we are. Most people I talk to from other countries seem to recognize the difference between what our government does and what the ordinary US citizen thinks. Of course, they can still blame us for being apathetic and not demanding that our government be honest with us... etc. Even most statements from terrorists seem to see this difference, but they say they have to use terrorism to get our attention, since there seems no other way to get us interested in our government (and there better not be ANYONE to respond as if I am defending terrorism. I'm just stating their view.) It's a shame WE in the US are so quick to talk bad about entire groups of people just because of the acts of individuals. Most people when nailed down will admit that "Oh yeah, it's not ALL of them", but that doesn't stop them from saying "All those people....". We should watch how we state our views to make sure they are clear. While I'm on a tear, we should also be careful about the terms "U.S." and "America". People are not mistrustful of all American politicians, they are mistrustful of U.S. politicians. Lots of American politicians (Canadians, Peruvians, etc.) can be trusted. We should try to make sure that when we mean U.S. citizens we say that, and not "Americans". This way of speaking is seen by much of the world as being arrogant. (Sure, sure, many people in the world refer to us as the Americans, but much of the world does not). This is not a direct response to any one single comment made in this discussion, but just comments in general. (Chuck, you said "Americans" above. Don't take this too personally, cause you are not the only one doing this by a long shot. For the most part I think your language is objective.)

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      • #4
        Global Sentiments

        "It's a shame WE in the US are so quick to talk bad about entire groups of people just because of the acts of individuals." Not to get picky here, but it would seem that you are doing just that, Daniel. You are labeling the entire US based on your perceptions of a few individuals. I try quite hard not to do that; it doesn't even work when talking about Americans, since we are such a diverse lot. Joe

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        • #5
          Global Sentiments

          Joe Pluta wrote: > Actually, Chuck, if you read the post I was floored by the > pro-Hussein sentiment. But thank you for your input. Joe, Fanaticism knows no boundaries. I actually am quite intrigued as to how this whole "India" thing is going to play out. It's already been intimated that India has played down it's reaction to Pakistan's military actions in deference to it's business ties to the US. After all, which companies would want their business operations in a country at war where nuclear munitions are a viable option? Bill

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          • #6
            Global Sentiments

            Daniel said: "Lots of American politicians (Canadians, Peruvians, etc.) can be trusted." No matter how how you slice it, "polititian" and "trust" should never be used in the same context. Daniel said: "(Chuck, you said "Americans" above." To the world "Americans" almost always means U.S. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

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            • #7
              Global Sentiments

              Daniel said: "Even most statements from terrorists seem to see this difference, but they say they have to use terrorism to get our attention" Yet they don't understand that it only awakens our personal defenses and activates our protection emotions against the terrorists. Terrorists are terrible psychologists. They have no understanding of the general American resolve. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

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              • #8
                Global Sentiments

                Yes, I think that is being very picky. However, you are technically right. I guess I should have said: "In my opinion, based on my limited viewpoint, it appears to me that the prevalent attitude of the people in the US that take the time to vocalize their thoughts, and the quotes I hear from politicians (that is, only on the stations I listen to), ....." yeah, whatever. Sorry, I just said "WE". I left it "WE" because I perceive it "prevalent", to be a widespread attitude. Whereas what I was referring to about our attitudes towards other countries is that it often seems to be based on the attitudes of the minority. I THINK I am making my statements about people in the US based on the MAJORITY of the attitudes I hear. Sorry to confuse you by over-simplifying.

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                • #9
                  Global Sentiments

                  Chuck said "To the world "Americans" almost always means U.S." That is correct. However, as I said, many people take this as arrogance. Many Americans feel slighted, because they are also Americans. This is just a situation where I think it would be a good idea for us to be aware of when we speak. No a huge deal, but it does evoke a negative response in some people, usually the very people we are trying to make a point to (at least when talking to foreigners). A hard thing to keep in mind (and I include myself) when trying to make a point to someone, is that it doesn't matter as much what we are trying to get across. It matters what they hear. We can't completely control what they hear, but the more we try to understand their views (right and wrong), the more likely it is that what we want to say is what they will hear. Not necessarily "likely", but "more likely". Chuck said "Yet they don't understand that it only awakens our personal defenses and"..... Absolutely. But we should try to understand what they THINK. If we don't, we are doomed to repetition. Same reasons as above.

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                  • #10
                    Global Sentiments

                    Sorry, me saying "That is correct" is a little arrogant of me. I should have said "I definately think you are right", or something like that....

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                    • #11
                      Global Sentiments

                      Daniel said: "Absolutely. But we should try to understand what they THINK." Personally, I have no desire to try to understand how a terrorist thinks. I'll leave that to the CIA guys. Terrorists are non-civilized homosapeins (to call them humans would be an insult to me) and to ask me to try to understand them is an insult to my intelligence. I don't try to understand the ants that invade my house, I only try to eradicate them. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

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                      • #12
                        Global Sentiments

                        Bill Robins asked: which companies would want their business operations in a country at war where nuclear munitions are a viable option? Apparently a whole bunch of them. . . . ....Unfortunately. Dave

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                        • #13
                          Global Sentiments

                          Chuck said: "Personally, I have no desire to try to understand how a terrorist thinks. I'll leave that to the CIA guys." Taking that attitude is what makes the situation worse. For two reasons. First, I have never really trusted the CIA. I'm not talking about conspiricies or corruption, I'm simply talking about the fact that they have a slightly different agenda. They have their own jobs to think about, and in a position like they have, developing a God complex is easy. And natural. I think they basically do a good job, but by us (oh no, OK, so for Joe, do I need to go into detail what I mean by the word "us"?) not caring what the terrorists think, at the very least we make the CIAs job more difficult. They not only have to deal with the REAL problems, but they have to deal with people's anger about perceived slights, hurts, damages, etc. If you spray for ants but leave the food out, you'll have the ants return much quicker. And it's pretty well guarenteed that the ants will come back. If we understand what the terrorists think, we'll most likely be able to (as a world, not just individuals) deal with the problem better, and with a more lasting effect. Even more important, we might be able to see where our government (and especially the CIA) has done things in those countries that helped start the hatred in the first place. There's a saying, from somewhere, that says "Love your enemy". Most people seem to not understand this concept at all. First to define "love": If a child is cought shoplifting, the parrent's first reaction is "Not my child", then "they were going to pay for it", to "someone put them up to it", to "I wonder why", to "What did I do wrong", and so on and so forth. The parent WANTS the child to be good, no matter how the evidence looks, and will exhaust ALL arguments before deciding that their child is simply bad. Love your enemy is the same thing. I want to know why. I want to know if there was something that I did that was part of the problem. I want to know what I can do to help. Unlike the imperfect love of a parent, (where it can be a kind of blind love,) I also, while loving my enemy, have no problem condemning someone to death if it seems they went too far. But I still want to understand. -dan

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                          • #14
                            Global Sentiments

                            Leaving the food out isn't he problem (to continue our metaphor). Ants will still come. Somehow ants attack the sink in my master bedroom on the second floor. Only thing there is warmth and water, no food. Nothing I can do about that but keep the spray handy. Same with terrorists. No matter what we do or say they'll keep coming. They simply hate us because we don't embrace their fanatical ideas. I'm not going to waste my time to try to understand them. I simply don't care about them, they insects to me. Best to keep the spray handy. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "Daniel Stephens" wrote in message news:6ae8baf2.12@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > Chuck said: "Personally, I have no desire to try to understand how a terrorist thinks. I'll leave that to the CIA guys." > > Taking that attitude is what makes the situation worse. For two reasons. > > First, I have never really trusted the CIA. I'm not talking about conspiricies or corruption, I'm simply talking about the fact that they have a slightly different agenda. They have their own jobs to think about, and in a position like they have, developing a God complex is easy. And natural. I think they basically do a good job, but by us (oh no, OK, so for Joe, do I need to go into detail what I mean by the word "us"?) not caring what the terrorists think, at the very least we make the CIAs job more difficult. They not only have to deal with the REAL problems, but they have to deal with people's anger about perceived slights, hurts, damages, etc. > > If you spray for ants but leave the food out, you'll have the ants return much quicker. And it's pretty well guarenteed that the ants will come back. > > If we understand what the terrorists think, we'll most likely be able to (as a world, not just individuals) deal with the problem better, and with a more lasting effect. Even more important, we might be able to see where our government (and especially the CIA) has done things in those countries that helped start the hatred in the first place. > > There's a saying, from somewhere, that says "Love your enemy". Most people seem to not understand this concept at all. First to define "love": If a child is cought shoplifting, the parrent's first reaction is "Not my child", then "they were going to pay for it", to "someone put them up to it", to "I wonder why", to "What did I do wrong", and so on and so forth. The parent WANTS the child to be good, no matter how the evidence looks, and will exhaust ALL arguments before deciding that their child is simply bad. > > Love your enemy is the same thing. I want to know why. I want to know if there was something that I did that was part of the problem. I want to know what I can do to help. Unlike the imperfect love of a parent, (where it can be a kind of blind love,) I also, while loving my enemy, have no problem condemning someone to death if it seems they went too far. But I still want to understand. > > -dan

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                            • #15
                              Global Sentiments

                              We're in danger of trying to turn this analogy into an allegory, but I'll keep running with it for now. You haven't gotten rid of the ants. You only kill the few that show up from time to time. In the real world, is it acceptable to just track down the terrorists after they have showed their faces? Unlike the ants that are just a nuisance in your bathroom, terrorists are not showing up for a little water and warmth. The point I'm trying to make is that by refusing to understand the the social/political/economic situation that is producing the extreme frustration and anger that is manifesting itself as terrorism, we are doomed to spend the rest of our existence with more and more terrorists coming out of the woodwork. Trying to just hunt them down will only produce more. In this country we have stated our resolve to exterminate terrorism. What's makes you think they have any less resolve in their goals? Their basic goal is to get the people of the U.S. to get interested in what our own government is doing in our names, and to realize that it is unfair for us to continually mess with their countries. We have helped install many a dictator, and then turned around and ran them out of power when it suited us later. Their portion of the world has been in turmoil for centuries, but our government has helped make it exponentially worse in the last several decades by using those countries as pawns. People in the mid-east have been yelling for decades that we should stop killing their leaders and screwing with their politics. Since we never listened, why should it surprise us that terrorism is the result? We are the bully on the block, and they know there's no way to stand face to face with us in a fair fight. The terrorists are using horrible evil methods to try get across a message that all the people in that region want to get across. The majority of them don't want to get the message across using terrorism, but they want the message to get across. The U.S. has the power. That means we have the chance to do some real good in the world. I don't mean be "do-gooders". I don't mean we save the entire world. But if we could just spend a LITTLE time trying to be compassionate when dealing with other countries, especially the ones we're mad at, then we could make our own lives so much easier instead of taking a course that means we spend more and more time looking over our shoulders. OK, now for the disclaimers. 1) I said "Trying to just track them down". Notice I use the word "just". I agree we need to try to track them down, I just don't think that by it self, it will produce any long term results, or even sort term ones. 2) Just because I agree that people in the mid-east have some very legitimate grips that we need to pay attention to, I absolutely do not agree with the terrorists methods (and neither do the great majority of people in those countries). Many an evil deed is done with great intentions. 3) "We are the bully on the block." I'm not saying we are all bad. Often we have good intentions. We do much good in the world. But we can be blind. And since we are the biggest and baddest around, it's easy for us to be arrogant and decide we're going to do what we want and not bother understanding why it pisses other people off. Once again, many an evil is done with great intentions. 3) "looking over our shoulders". I'm not saying it will make everyone love us. It would cut down on some of the vehemence, though. There will always be people jealous of others who are successful. But why do we have to go out of our way to make people hate us? One last thought: Most people's definition of "Love your enemy" is that they hope God will help their enemy to be saved and take them to heaven, and the sooner the better.

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