U.S. Jobs Protection Act of 2003

[Guest.Visitor]

U.S. Jobs Protection Act of 2003

Good example. I didn't think it would directly add up, but what about if you add in the mantra that "those now unemployed workers can make businesses of their own, which will hire people"....yada yada yada. It might be true, but it seems impossible to measure. I guess we'll see, huh? For me, manufacturing is a good example. Ultimately, most manufacturing will be robotic, don't you think? Eventually, the value of a manufacturing hour will be near zero. At that point, I would think it would be good to be well past the "manufacturing and production" stage of a country's economy. Into what, though, who knows? I guess we'll be among the first to find out, if things keep going this way and if we live long enough.

[J.Pluta]

U.S. Jobs Protection Act of 2003

Brian said: "those now unemployed workers can make businesses of their own, which will hire people". That works in a healthy economy, I suppose, but how many people do you personally know that have their own business? How many people do they employ? Of all the people I know of who have been laid off in the past several years, I know of precious few who went into business for themselves, and even fewer who are still in business today. Without statistical information, you have to go by personal experience, and mine is that layoffs are most definitely NOT spurring the growth of new businesses. It might if we were to keep demand within our own borders, but by outsourcing every industry possible, we're not giving ourselves time to develop new industries. Without new industries and without protection the startups have to compete with the offshore companies paying their employees $2000/year. It's a vicious circle, and it has to stop. We need to identify the new industries, build our educational infrastructure to push those indutries, and protect our current tax base while building those industries. So my PC costs an extra fifty bucks? I'm okay with that. The problem is that the CEO of Intel also doesn't get his third summer home, and I KNOW he's not okay with that. Joe

[Guest.Visitor]

U.S. Jobs Protection Act of 2003

Not only the CEO, but the less than altruistic~ politician isn't okay with that either. Cause that one CEO can cause a large amount of money to flow into someone's war chest. So, it takes a lot of us screaming bloody murder and voting against that one CEO and his money.

[Guest.Visitor]

U.S. Jobs Protection Act of 2003

We need to identify the new industries, build our educational infrastructure to push those indutries, and protect our current tax base while building those industries. So my PC costs an extra fifty bucks? I'm okay with that. The problem is that the CEO of Intel also doesn't get his third summer home, and I KNOW he's not okay with that.

Here here! That's the direction I'm leaning after my personal research that I've done to date. And not everyone has to be super-educated. We just have to keep an environment that attracts the best minds from around the world.

That works in a healthy economy, I suppose,

A healthy economy is a key point, and ours is the healthiest in the world. See that CIA site I mentioned.

but how many people do you personally know that have their own business? How many people do they employ? Of all the people I know of who have been laid off in the past several years, I know of precious few who went into business for themselves, and even fewer who are still in business today.

When I was laid off in a past life, I became a consultant, and I've been in biz for myself for a long time, with a few "real jobs" thrown into the mix in between. Last May, I took a new opportunity to work towards taking over my retiring father's CPA firm, so I see a LOT of small business successes, and a few failures too. It's very interesting to see the internals of these businesses, and to talk to their owners. I don't know how many were started by laid off employees, but I'd imagine several. My new underlying theme is "it can be done, and people do it all the time." America is a great place to start a business - perhaps the best place in the world (if we can just keep the trial lawyers from ruining it). So in that sense, we're in a good position. As you and I and others who've worked for them before know, there are a lot of dumb people who run successful businesses despite themselves. Those that are good at it can really do well for themselves. Those that aren't hopefully try again until they're successful. That kind of healthly environment is what we need to foster and preserve. I'm optimistic, although I certainly don't have a clear idea of how things are going to turn out. Thanks all for another good thread. Personally, I eat this stuff up and love to learn what others think. Brian

[Guest.Visitor]

U.S. Jobs Protection Act of 2003

This is what I have been reaching for....Brian's statement: A healthy economy is a key point, and ours is the healthiest in the world. See that CIA site I mentioned. At present this is true, to the best of my limited knowledge and I have no trouble believing it, and I don't think it will drop tommorrow, but, before I retire... Climbing the mountain is one thing, staying up there when everyone is trying to knock you off, and your own are selling you out for a few pennies of stock rise at a time... Good business is good business no matter what size the company.

[J.Pluta]

U.S. Jobs Protection Act of 2003

Brian said: "A healthy economy is a key point, and ours is the healthiest in the world. See that CIA site I mentioned." Did you see last months employment figures? The stock market is rebounding, but not the economy, and certainly not jobs. Only 1000 new jobs, instead of the 150,000 expected - that's a shortfall of over 99%. There's no work out there, Brian, and thus no impetus to start a business. I personally know of at least one business owner who is shutting down his business; maybe your input could help him. There may be money to be made in non-IT industries, but since most of us on this list are in IT, we have no idea what those industries are. Given your broader experience, Brian, perhaps you could give us a capsule synopsis of fields and the number of businesses that have succeeded and failed in those areas? While I hate to see people get out of IT, for those who have no other choice, this might be good information. Joe

[Guest.Visitor]

U.S. Jobs Protection Act of 2003

ctibodoe asked: "How many jr programmers do you employ?" Zero. I've employed/trained a number of jr. programmers. It's not cost effective in my current environment. Ctibode asked: "Are you part of the solution or the problem." What is the definition of the problem? Are you claiming that not hiring jr. programmers is the problem? ctibodeoe: "Are you hoping someone else is going to fix it for you." I have 16 programmers on my staff. I don't outsource any programming. I really don't care what someone else does or doesn't do. ctibode foolishly claimed: "But if VP's like you can only see the next hours stock price, someone else will decide your future." I don't work for a public company. There is not stock price for me to watch. In fact, I stated that in the message from which you responded. You don't give me a lot of faith in the future of AS/400 programming if simple details like that are missed! ;-) ctibode asked: "Do you support the future of the AS/400 or do you let others decide it's fate." I support the future of my organization. The AS/400 isn't religion that needs protection. The market will decide where the future of the iSeries lies. I have no obligation or desire to fight for a particular platform. In fact, I will use the appropriate tools available for my organization's current need. Should the IBM midrange platform die -- something that's been predicted since the mid-80s -- I, along with my company will move on. There will always be tools to solve the job at hand. Don't get me wrong, I have a long and appreciative relationship with the iSeries and hope it continues but I won't grieve if it goes away. I have a similar relationship with my car, a Mustang convertable. I've owned 4 Mustangs and really enjoy them. However, if Ford decides to discontinue the Mustang I won't fight to keep the line alive and I won't grieve over the end of the line. ctibode said: "I believe you are in place to make a difference." I have some influence in some areas and choose not to overuse my influence. I pick battles that I believe are important. And, in the end, it's ME that decides what I think is important, not someone else. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[Guest.Visitor]

U.S. Jobs Protection Act of 2003

Tom, Your arguments are well crafted and clearly expressed. I agree with you fully. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "tcsbiz" wrote in message news:6ae8e941.14@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > David, > > The U.S. has been ignoring workers for a long time. We old timers remember when manufacturing workers were being "down sized" (some of us called it "right sizing") with the technology and programs we were developing. Our attitude then was "let them get educated". It wasn't our concern that they found themselves in dead-end jobs. We thought, rather arrogantly, that it could never happen to us. Well, guess what? It is happening to us and it has less to do with the alphabet soup of foreign worker visas than the change in focus in how the iSeries is used. It just another server now. Nothing special. Now we are complaining and looking for protection just like the steel workers, auto workers, and others before us since the 70's. > > There are fewer and fewer businesses using iSeries as their main computer. The programming has shifted to other platforms and languages. How many of us scoffed when Java, Linux, Windows, and the web were being developed as enterprise systems. Now we need to know much more than RPG. A lot of us argue the merits of RPG III/IV/ILE, free-format versus fixed, etc. But what we should be focusing on is how to secure our futures by learning and using the latest technologies. > > Personally, while taking programming jobs in Java and web development, I'm shifting my business to provide other business services and not just programming. I've found a pretty good small business market providing accounting, bookkeeping, and tax services as well as computer services. > > It is us who need to change. We don't need more government beaureaucrats trying to protect us. You lose control of your future when you put it in the hands of the government. > > Tom.

[Guest.Visitor]

U.S. Jobs Protection Act of 2003

David, If my company hadn't started outsourcing manufacturing to China years ago it would be out of business. Outsourcing is not, by it's very nature, bad. It's only bad when it affects us personally, eh? chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "David Abramowitz" wrote in message news:6ae8e941.28@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > Joe Pluta asked: If outsourcing was so successful, wouldn't we have heard those success stories by now? > > One of my constant dronings has been that business decisions will be perpatuated by the decision maker due to political considerations despite the ramification of those decisions. > > The reason is that the decision maker's career is tied up in the correctness of the decision. This is why a change of platform, outsourcing, or anything else can not be reversed by the same individual. > > An intelligent company would stop the bleeding. More often than not, there is an abundance of blood. If an outsourcing project ends up as a detriment to the bottom line, the decision maker will spin the facts as to support the method. Other times the projects are "too big to fail". and so on and so on and so on. > > Dave

[David Abramowitz]

U.S. Jobs Protection Act of 2003

Here's a story that goes back about sixty years: Henry Ford and Walter Reuther are talking and walking in Ford's new automated factory. Ford says to Reuther "And who will join your union now Walter?" and Reuther retorts "And who will buy your cars now, Henry?" Fade to black. Dave

[David Abramowitz]

U.S. Jobs Protection Act of 2003

Chuck Ackerman wrote: Outsourcing is not, by it's very nature, bad. It's only bad when it affects us personally, eh? I never stated that it was. While I do have a point of view, I also try to refrain from using "We" or "us" in any of my comments. The original point of my post was to convince others to write individual letters to their representatives supporting this bill (HR 4829 (The House version) and S 1452 (The senate version)). I believe that taking this action would be a positive thing to do; a good thing to do. OTOH, the reader must either take the action or not. I try not to use collective pronouns, and would rather not be included in anyone else's. Dave

[Guest.Visitor]

U.S. Jobs Protection Act of 2003

There's no work out there, Brian, and thus no impetus to start a business

That's the very reason to start a business!

There may be money to be made in non-IT industries, but since most of us on this list are in IT, we have no idea what those industries are.

There's roughly a bazillion business ideas and plans out there. You don't even have to think of your own. There are business brokers whose jobs are the buying and selling of small, private businesses. There are banks and VCs and grandmas to loan money. There are government agencies to get you going (www.sba.gov) . You can generally buy an existing small business for a certain, negotiable multiple of sales. My favorite example to date is two friends who didn't know what they wanted to do, so they went to a business broker. They ending up buying two local pool cleaning businesses and merging them - acquisitions and mergers on an individual level! ;-) One partner is a silent investor, one cleans the pools, and one takes care of the backoffice stuff. Then there's the small group of investors who bought a local electrical component mfg plant here, paid off all loans in 5 years, and turned it around to a profitable business employing 20 people. Or you can buy a franchise, which is designed to be turnkey and provide a complete, ready to go biz that includes training. People do all kinds of stuff.

The stock market is rebounding, but not the economy, and certainly not jobs.

I'm not certain what you mean by the economy, but I wonder about that jobs number. How many people have dropped of the unemployment radar because they started their own businesses? Incidentally, I've read that one of the key reasons why the US has achieved its economic power is its flexible employment laws. This is a mixed blessing - you can get fired/laid off without a 6 month notice, but companies are more willing to hire people when they need them. Sounds like one of those "give you this quarter for that dollar bill" deals, but it probably a factor. I think of it like we're in an adjustment period now. The unemployment number given the rapid growth was surprising, but I'm still trying to figure out the context. If we move things offshore, what are we going to do with the people who are out of work? What jobs will they have? I dunno. I hear the Army is hiring. ;-) Brian

[J.Pluta]

U.S. Jobs Protection Act of 2003

Uh. So what new business did you start?

[Guest.Visitor]

U.S. Jobs Protection Act of 2003

You mean the one I mentioned as being in a past life? I was a consultant, of course. ;-) With customers even! And I used to make and sell PCs, back when it was profitable. Brian

[Guest.Visitor]

U.S. Jobs Protection Act of 2003

I read your praises of the platform, then your concern about future support concerns, and was curious if you were just draining the resource pump or doing anything to keep it primed. And I recalled that you only had Sr level personnel. Physics does require something for something to my understanding. So it would be my understanding that you are contributing to the problem that you state concerns you. Or is someone else responsible for supplying all levels of support indefinitely to the platform that you sing praises of. Have you ever experienced that ripple effect of one fool slowing down and doing a little rubber necking in traffic. Simple things we all do, like hiring practices ripple thru the field. You stated a potential problem. I always look for solutions if feasible. I am not religious about a machine. But I choose for the time being to work in this area and try to sustain the field for myself and others as long as it makes sense to me. We all do what we decide is best for ourselves. I wouldn't want to force anyone to do anything. Cause I sure don't like being forced. But, give me a reason to believe that you know a better way, and I changing what I'm doing. Summed up, if you have 16 Sr level programmers and no Jr's, its hard to believe you are seriously worried about supporting the platform of your business, in your business, in the future. I find it hard to understand how it makes business sense not to plan personnel for the future instead of replacing a platform and all that that entails, maybe even changing the way you do business because of a new platform.