U.S. Jobs Protection Act of 2003

[Guest.Visitor]

U.S. Jobs Protection Act of 2003

It was said: "The stock market is rebounding, but not the economy" Boy you really couldn't tell that by public behavior. I can go out to dinner with my family and on ANY night of the week -- it can be a Tuesday, Wednesday, any night -- and I have to wait for 30-45 minutes to get a seat at a local Chili's, Macaroni Grill, TGIFriday's, etc. Go to a theater on a weekend and if you haven't purchased your tickets at least an hour in advance the movie is sold out. Now, I know that this is an unscientific indicator but when I was starting my family and times were tough the first things we eliminated were eating out and going to the movies. Maybe we've shifted our society where people don't cut back when times are tough, just like the government. I guess maybe I should be grateful the economy is sour since I'd probably go hungry waiting for a table and never see a movie! ;-) chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[Guest.Visitor]

U.S. Jobs Protection Act of 2003

Chuck, your comment struck me as most accurate: you said" Maybe we've shifted our society where people don't cut back when times are tough, just like the government." Why should we?!?!? I know of instances where jobs are lost, for varying reasons, so people run up the debt and then go bankrupt. No responsibilty anymore. I guess since CEO's are getting away with it, why not the backbone of America(the middle class). Amazing.

[Guest.Visitor]

U.S. Jobs Protection Act of 2003

ctibodoe asked: "Or is someone else responsible for supplying all levels of support indefinitely to the platform that you sing praises of." I have absolutely no responsibility to help promote or propogate any commercial venture including products, such as the iSeries, produced by IBM. I will live long and prosper whether the iSeries does or not. In the end it will be IBM that will decide whether it lives or dies and, I'm afraid, my single vote will have little to do with it. It's large iSeries shops like nearby Countrywide Funding that employ 800-1000 people in their iSeries based I.T. department that has influence over IBM's product offerings. I'm just small fry and IBM has shown that they pay little or no attention to me even when I'm shouting at them. ctibodoe stated: "Summed up, if you have 16 Sr level programmers and no Jr's, its hard to believe you are seriously worried about supporting the platform of your business, in your business, in the future." Actually, 8 of those 16 programmers 8 are .NET/C# programmers that program our web site. So, I guess you could say that I'm less dedicated to the iSeries than you previously thought. ctibodoe asked: "I find it hard to understand how it makes business sense not to plan personnel for the future" Are you suggesting that I should have junior level programmers "in the wings" to take over when the senior level guys move on? I don't work that way. I work hard to keep the ones I have employed and productive. I've been in I.T. management for 28 years and have had only ONE programmer leave voluntarily. I have a great track record and plan on keeping it that way. The average tenure on my current iSeries staff is approximately 8 years. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[Guest.Visitor]

U.S. Jobs Protection Act of 2003

ctibodoe asked: "Or is someone else responsible for supplying all levels of support indefinitely to the platform that you sing praises of." I have absolutely no responsibility to help promote or propogate any commercial venture including products, such as the iSeries, produced by IBM. I will live long and prosper whether the iSeries does or not. In the end it will be IBM that will decide whether it lives or dies and, I'm afraid, my single vote will have little to do with it. 'I really wasn't thinking of IBM, I was thinking about the influence all of us have on the marketplace. If all shops only hire Sr. Level people attrition does end the project. You are right you have no obligation to other companies and I respect that is your decision. You stated a concern, and your actions will contribute in the direction to make it come true. I believe the sum of all actions will decide the fate just like elections are decided by the sum of all votes (thousands of single votes add up to more than one 999 block vote).' It's large iSeries shops like nearby Countrywide Funding that employ 800-1000 people in their iSeries based I.T. department that has influence over IBM's product offerings. I'm just small fry and IBM has shown that they pay little or no attention to me even when I'm shouting at them. ctibodoe stated: "Summed up, if you have 16 Sr level programmers and no Jr's, its hard to believe you are seriously worried about supporting the platform of your business, in your business, in the future." Actually, 8 of those 16 programmers 8 are .NET/C# programmers that program our web site. So, I guess you could say that I'm less dedicated to the iSeries than you previously thought. 'I haven't really believed for a long time that you are dedicated to the platform, based on the sum of your posts that I have read. No problem, we both still have exposure to it and can learn from each other. Again you voiced a concern. I posed a contribution to it. A question: Of the 8 programmers that are not iSeries are any of them jr level, and if so was that a deliberate decision? ' ctibodoe asked: "I find it hard to understand how it makes business sense not to plan personnel for the future" Are you suggesting that I should have junior level programmers "in the wings" to take over when the senior level guys move on? I don't work that way. I work hard to keep the ones I have employed and productive. I've been in I.T. management for 28 years and have had only ONE programmer leave voluntarily. I have a great track record and plan on keeping it that way. The average tenure on my current iSeries staff is approximately 8 years. 'I never meant to cast any cloud on your management style, but I guess I did whith that statement about planning for the future. You are where you are like the rest of us, because of what you have done and now do. But, sharing different ideas sometimes brings new life to an old being. Not even looking at the in the wings to take over issue, new blood in the business brings new ideas.' 'I know that if I see no more junior level programmers, no more classes being offered anywhere, no more MC, no more iSeriesNetwork, no more,etc etc....at some point the little ripple looks like a big wave to me and I drop the iSeries from my income.' 'The iSeries has been great to me. It is not the only thing that I have ever done or the only business that I am now currently in. But, it is one relationship that I would like to see continue. That is why I come to this forum. I come to learn and to participate in its future. My little voice doesn't count for much either, by itself, but summed with others each little ripple can add up to a big wave. I believe that every action I take no matter how small has the possibility of having earth shattering effect, I believe yours can too. I also believe thats how democracy works, and I believe that was the starting point of this thread. The life of the iSeries is just a small part of that original starting point, but, in the end we are all affected even if the brunt of it would be directed at .NET and C# programmers.'

[Guest.Visitor]

U.S. Jobs Protection Act of 2003

ctibodoe said: "I know that if I see no more junior level programmers, no more classes being offered anywhere, no more MC, no more iSeriesNetwork, no more,etc etc....at some point the little ripple looks like a big wave to me and I drop the iSeries from my income." Agreed. ctibodoe said: "I believe the sum of all actions will decide the fate just like elections are decided by the sum of all votes (thousands of single votes add up to more than one 999 block vote)." I disagree. IBM listens to the "big boys," such as Countrywide. They always have and always will. No matter their comments at COMMON or elsewhere, our votes don't matter. There is no accumulative counting in IBM's tallying process. I've been a customer of IBM for 28 years and have seen this first hand. IBM could, despite our dedication to the product line and no matter how successful it is, suddenly discontinue the entire line. That's almost happened a few times in the past when the mainframe guys get their hands on things. In fact, a recent survey of IBM employees found that more than 1/3 of IBM employees thought the line was no longer being made! So, should I be dedicated to a line that even IBM has trouble getting internal recognition for? ctibodoe said: "I haven't really believed for a long time that you are dedicated to the platform, based on the sum of your posts that I have read. " Having said that, and having thrown in all of my rhetoric, here is my real feelings on the subject. I have been using IBM midrange since my first experience on a S/3 in 1973. I feel very comfortable in the midrange environment and it has supported my companies and my family for many years. I have also used PCs since 1978 when I built my first IMSAI from a kit. I saw the power of PCs and what they could do. I was able to do things at home that my large, expensive S/3 at work couldn't do. Each has it's place. I've fought for both over the years. I visit forums to banter and discuss with others. Each platform has it's place and no platform is perfect at everything. However, will not sit by when some one foolishly waves their hands in the air and claims "my platform is the best, what are those idiots thinking who use that other platform." I know differently. I will immediately chime up to discourage that kind of thinking. It is only used to pump up the chest of the speaker and try to belittle the user of the other platform. BTW, over the years, I've vigorously defended the AS/400 in PC related platforms. There are people in those forums who berate the AS/400 and claim it to be a sluggish legacy machine only used by old gray haired people. Well, the latter part may be right, but it's not a sluggish legacy machine. ;-) If your definition of supporting the platform is to think it is the best solution for all tasks, then I'm not yor man. If you think I should do whatever possible to make sure it survives in the war of technology then I'm not your man. If you expect me to do what is necessary to make my company successful and use the AS/400 for the tasks it's best suited for, then I will stand up and be counted. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. > > 'The iSeries has been great to me. It is not the only thing that I have ever done or the only business that I am now currently in. But, it is one relationship that I would like to see continue. That is why I come to this forum. I come to learn and to participate in its future. My little voice doesn't count for much either, by itself, but summed with others each little ripple can add up to a big wave. I believe that every action I take no matter how small has the possibility of having earth shattering effect, I believe yours can too. I also believe thats how democracy works, and I believe that was the starting point of this thread. The life of the iSeries is just a small part of that original starting point, but, in the end we are all affected even if the brunt of it would be directed at .NET and C# programmers.'

[Guest.Visitor]

U.S. Jobs Protection Act of 2003

ctibodoe said: "I know that if I see no more junior level programmers, no more classes being offered anywhere, no more MC, no more iSeriesNetwork, no more,etc etc....at some point the little ripple looks like a big wave to me and I drop the iSeries from my income." Agreed. ctibodoe said: "I believe the sum of all actions will decide the fate just like elections are decided by the sum of all votes (thousands of single votes add up to more than one 999 block vote)." I disagree. IBM listens to the "big boys," such as Countrywide. They always have and always will. No matter their comments at COMMON or elsewhere, our votes don't matter. There is no accumulative counting in IBM's tallying process. I've been a customer of IBM for 28 years and have seen this first hand. IBM could, despite our dedication to the product line and no matter how successful it is, suddenly discontinue the entire line. That's almost happened a few times in the past when the mainframe guys get their hands on things. In fact, a recent survey of IBM employees found that more than 1/3 of IBM employees thought the line was no longer being made! So, should I be dedicated to a line that even IBM has trouble getting internal recognition for? 'Thats only something that you and your business can decide. We all have different agendas.' ctibodoe said: "I haven't really believed for a long time that you are dedicated to the platform, based on the sum of your posts that I have read. " Having said that, and having thrown in all of my rhetoric, here is my real feelings on the subject. I have been using IBM midrange since my first experience on a S/3 in 1973. I feel very comfortable in the midrange environment and it has supported my companies and my family for many years. I have also used PCs since 1978 when I built my first IMSAI from a kit. I saw the power of PCs and what they could do. I was able to do things at home that my large, expensive S/3 at work couldn't do. Each has it's place. I've fought for both over the years. I visit forums to banter and discuss with others. Each platform has it's place and no platform is perfect at everything. However, will not sit by when some one foolishly waves their hands in the air and claims "my platform is the best, what are those idiots thinking who use that other platform." I know differently. I will immediately chime up to discourage that kind of thinking. It is only used to pump up the chest of the speaker and try to belittle the user of the other platform. BTW, over the years, I've vigorously defended the AS/400 in PC related platforms. There are people in those forums who berate the AS/400 and claim it to be a sluggish legacy machine only used by old gray haired people. Well, the latter part may be right, but it's not a sluggish legacy machine. ;-) If your definition of supporting the platform is to think it is the best solution for all tasks, then I'm not yor man. If you think I should do whatever possible to make sure it survives in the war of technology then I'm not your man. If you expect me to do what is necessary to make my company successful and use the AS/400 for the tasks it's best suited for, then I will stand up and be counted. 'We all have different agendas. I have worked for managers that were dedicated and some that were not, using my definition of dedicated. A dedicated manager, for me means voicing the truth about the platform to owners (not trying the use any platform where it doesn't fit). If a business has multi platforms and the company does its business on a iSeries is there a turf war going on? Are factions trying to replace current processes with inferior methods used on other platforms? Is this being allowed? Even if a particular process can be done on another platform, the added complexity may not justify it being done. On the other hand, is there a method in determining what platform gets what processing? This is okay. And then, is the business deliberately replacing the iSeries? This is okay too, But it is not a dedicated shop, they are dedicated to something else and that is okay, too. Since I am selling my services on the iSeries, it is my agenda to promote it, with enthusiam, and truth. More boxes out there means more opportunity for me. More programmers out there means a healthier marketplace. Propping up a untruthful image of what the box will do is not healthy for my business, cause if asked to do it no amount of money I recieved could produce results. But, after all that being said it is in my best interests to promote the box and the languages that I know. On the other hand, I don't manage, but if I did, I guess my focus would be more on people and their ability to do whatever it is on whatever box I needed it done on.

[Guest.Visitor]

U.S. Jobs Protection Act of 2003

I for one am looking for someone who has a clear "makes sense" plan to stop H1B and outsourcing. So far, the only person I see out there not "dancing around" the issue with politicospeak is Lou Dobbs. He is the man. If Arnold can run, can't Lou Dobbs? How about Kerry...the frontrunner...Is my research correct that he sounds bought and paid for already? He thinks we should "research the problem"...unbelievable...I was hoping for some hope, but bottom line it looks like business as usuual.

[David Abramowitz]

U.S. Jobs Protection Act of 2003

When a politico says "We have to research the problem", What he really is saying is "I don't have the foggiest idea what you're talking about, and before I say anything that will give ammunition my opponent, I'd better go and look it up first. . . . . That is if I remember to do it". This is not necessarily a bad thing. The specifics of L-1, H1-B, outsourcing, etc. are not first and foremost on the minds of our elected representatives. There are issues that cut wider and deeper on the American political scene, and that should be kept in mind if you have the fortune to deal in these circles. Individual letters are very helpful, because there is a record of everything in writing. I have never written a letter to congress without receiving a response. One of the best conversations I have had on this issue was with a congressional staffer. I simply asked the question "What will get the representative's attention, and what can I do about it?" To make a long story short, the more individual (not form) letters written, the more attention any issue will receive. Dave

[Guest.Visitor]

U.S. Jobs Protection Act of 2003

I am still looking for a politician who will DO something rather than talk. I did send an email to Diane Feinstein(my senator in CA) about the H1B issue to ask her to support the 2004 Jobs act. She sent me back a long worded response that said " we will continue to support all issues that further and improve the health of california businesses" I wrote back and said.."How about considering the health of the worker..." Bottom line...I really think only non-politicians can solve this problem...everyone else is on the take in one way or another. The sooner we face that fact the better off we will find a real solution.

[Guest.Visitor]

U.S. Jobs Protection Act of 2003

Ksolutions1, To try to untangle the worker from the corporation is impossible. To only think of the health of the worker at the cost of the corporation is what got California in problems. Most new companies wouldn't consider starting a company in California and many companies are leaving the state in droves. It's because California has swung the pendulum way too far in the direction of the worker. It simply costs too much to do business in California. To pile additional costs via legislation would be suicide for California. chuck, a resident of California. Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "ksolutions1" wrote in message news:6ae8e941.54@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > I am still looking for a politician who will DO something rather than talk. I did send an email to Diane Feinstein(my senator in CA) about the H1B issue to ask her to support the 2004 Jobs act. > > She sent me back a long worded response that said " we will continue to support all issues that further and improve the health of california businesses" > > I wrote back and said.."How about considering the health of the worker..." Bottom line...I really think only non-politicians can solve this problem...everyone else is on the take in one way or another. The sooner we face that fact the better off we will find a real solution.

[David Abramowitz]

U.S. Jobs Protection Act of 2003

Call your reps local office and speak to a staffer. Mention specific bills, and explain how corporations have nothing to fear from the passage of this legislation. Get the staffers name, and write a follow-up letter thanking them. Having an "in" with a staffer is often a way to get future responses that are not "form" letters. Dave

[Guest.Visitor]

U.S. Jobs Protection Act of 2003

To all the businesses that say "If I pay those wages or start a business in this state(or this country) it will be suicide..we just cannot compete or survive...we will have to leave." I think thats just bull...of course..its more expensive here...land..wages..etc..thats the cost of doing business..the corporations pay us wages we can build a life on, and we in turn buy their goods. Everyone benefits. Yes the corporations don't profit as much, overall I think its good for the country. This notion of paying the least possible wage is third world country thinking, and it we continue along that path we will soon become a country with no middle class, only rich and poor, and I think we all agree that's what makes life different than some other countries. This actually in my mind is not so much an economic issue as it is a moral one. These corporations and their shareholders got their houses by the beach and fancy cars off the American worker..We protect them from criminals, we take out their trash...we fix their toilets...we program their computers...and now....they want to turn our jobs over to someone else who has no vested interest in this country other than to make a buck...its just not right...thats how i see it.. Anyway...my solution...if the corps don't like it here..they can move...to china..to jakarta...india..whatever..they can live there..they can hire workers there...buy a house there..raise there kids there...but oh yes..one final thing...the US of A will not buy their products, at least without an excessive tarriff. I say call their bluff. Let em go...I think after reflection..they will choose to stay..What do you think?

[Guest.Visitor]

U.S. Jobs Protection Act of 2003

"Corporations have been enthroned. An era of corruption in high places will follow and the money power will endeavor to prolong its reign by working on the prejudices of the people until wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed. " -Abraham Lincoln (1809-1865)

[Guest.Visitor]

U.S. Jobs Protection Act of 2003

wow. What a powerful quote. Seems Honest Abe hit it on the nail head. If this does occur and it seems that it is occuring all around us, then the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA will become SOCIALIST AMERICA. 1)The dumbing down of American schools, 2) the liberal "shove it down our throats approach" in the media, 3)Moving from Industrial to SERVICE (or SLAVE) nation, 4)Allowing the UN to stay here! Thomas Jefferson would have loved to be alive today. Both Clinton's must be descendants.

[Guest.Visitor]

U.S. Jobs Protection Act of 2003

But doesn't the notion that "the money power will endeavor to prolong its reign" go against the notion "until...the Republic is destroyed"? To me, there's a balance that must be sought between rich and poor. The rich must share at least enough of their wealth to prevent to poor from coming and taking it ala 1917 Russia. But on the other hand, there needs to be enough incentive for people to want to become rich, and part of that incentive is that you get to keep what you work for. Brian