Another example of why visas must go

[J.Pluta]

And on the other side of the coin, we CAN make a difference! Especially now, as it is an election year. And the issues are being heard and trumpeted throughout the industry. It's not just a few of us shouting and waving our arms - everybody is starting to pick up on the news. And despite what the industry pundits would have you believe, the loss of IT jobs is NOT inevitable, and it is DEFINITELY being exacerbated by the visa programs. Read on... The following is one of the best researched articles I've read recently on the visa issue: http://news.com.com/2100-1022_3-5141...?tag=nefd_lede Among the important points: 1. H-1B regulations have actually been loosened - companies no longer have to attest that they've looked for American workers. This is CLEARLY a violation of the original intent of the provision, and is a blatant cave-in to the visa abusers and their mouthpieces such as the ITAA and the CSPP. 2. Indian consulting firms are some of the biggest abusers of the visa programs. This is not news, but this article has numbers. 3. Ending visas programs will cut down the loss of jobs. Wipro put in their financial statements that "our ability to compete for and provide services to clients in the United States could be impaired" by the curtailment of these programs. We CAN save our jobs! This is the time to fight. Call your Congressmen. Elections are coming. Make sure your voice is heard! Joe

[dacust]

Another example of why visas must go

Joe said "We CAN save our jobs! This is the time to fight. Call your Congressmen. Elections are coming. Make sure your voice is heard! " I agree. We should all do this. But it's only a stop-gap measure. If there is anyway to make more profit, companies will find a way to get there. I think that it is inevitable that the industry will move offshore. And I mean that much of what we do now will be totally done by foreign companies. Not just outsourced from here, but the US won't be involved at all. Our manufacturing largely moved to Japan. Now Japan is seeing their manufacturing slowly move away. It's not because they do a bad job, and it is DEFINITELY not because they lack legislation (they have some of the most restrictive rules on foreign workers of any country). It's because it was natural that countries that have a lower standard of living, once they developed the skills needed, could produce a quality product cheaper. I still say our primary focus should be on making sure we individually position ourselves in a market where we think we can contribute something better than anyone else. If the IT industry goes offshore, or to visa holders, I'll move to another field. I won't like it. This is the first career I've held more than a year (almost 20 years, now, and I had MANY jobs before that) and I'd hate to do anything else. But if the industry changes, it's my job to change with it, either in a way to stay in it, or a way to go somewhere else with the minimum of pain and lost salary. We should use all the means we have at our disposal, which is why I agree with Joe. It's just that I, personally, won't spend the majority of my energy in that direction or place too much hopes on accomplishing much that way. I will continue to write my representative and senator, though. There are some pretty good arguments against offshore outsourcing (security, logistics, etc.), and I can push these at my management (I don't, because our CFO does that very well without my help). But when they have senior people here that can watch over the less knowlegable people (and maybe people with less communication skills, etc.) it's harder to make a local argument against hiring inexpensive labor. Luckily, out of the 120 IT people in my company, there are only 2 foreign contractors I am aware of (and I don't know whether they are citizens or not) so it's not a problem here. ---Yet. Really all I'm saying, is let's don't focus too strongly on any one solution and then miss the boat when it pulls out anyway. -dan PS I told myself I'd stay out of this, but here I go again.....

[J.Pluta]

Another example of why visas must go

I agree entirely, Dan. There are many things we need to do, both tactical and strategic. But the pressing tactical issue TODAY is to atack these visa programs. As I've shown, and as the article also explains, they are being abused at the cost of MILLIONS if not BILLIONS of dollars of income for American IT workers. At the same time, there are other things to be done, especially in the area of education and also in basic jobs protection. It's not just about "buy American", either, although that's not a bad idea when practical. But I was asked the following question (I present both the question and my answer): Q: "In that case, if you were elected in one of the government offices where you have the power to sign your decision, will you force other Americans to buy American products only? Yes? No? Why?" A: You realize of course that this sort of hypothetical question is much larger than the simpler one each American citizen can act on themselves, and that the limitations of this sort of forum won't allow me to do the question justice, correct? If you're willing to work within those guidelines, I'd say that, in a very simplistic sense, the first thing I would do would be to analyze the American economy and identify four major groupings: 1. Industries which are currenlty facing no great outside pressure from foreign markets - truck drivers, nurses and physicists all fall into this category, for differing reasons. 2. Industries which are currently strong, but are beginning to see competition, such as IT and accounting. 3. Industries for which developing countries have built an infrastructure with decent standards of living for the workers, which allow them to fairly beat us in the open market. 4. Industries where foreign goods are produced under inhumane conditions. The next step would be training programs, in which workers in industries of type three would be trained for jobs in positions of type one. This would allow us to remove artifical trade barriers in those fields, thus reducing our debt and allowing us to compete more fairly in the other fields. Type two industries would have to be analyzed to see which portions can remain type one and which are destined to be type three. For those which we believe we can keep viable, I would flood the publicly funded colleges with courses on those technologies and get kids in there. For those which we will begin losing, I'd begin retraining programs. In either case, I would protect them with short-term tariffs until retraining programs are in place and showing results. Type four industries I would tariff the hell out of them to make them non-viable as products for American customers. I might also offer incentives to people who buy American, such as rebating the sales tax for any American product purchased. Certain big ticket items such as cars and major appliances (durable goods) bought from American manufacturers would also have extra incentives, such as tuition credits. Now, the "buy American" issue is fraught with peril and lots of opportunity for fraud, so I'd have to think about it carefully, but the idea is there - buy American, build America. I'd also have programs to help education - a service bill where you get free tuition if you agree to a three- or four-year stint in teaching at public schools. I'd close some tax loopholes (don't ask me which ones, since I haven't looked at the tax bills) and replace them with tax incentives for grants to public education. I'd require that any company doing business for state, local or federal government (and thus being funded by American tax dollars) be headquartered in the United States and subject to American laws, and a minimum percentage of its expenses be spent in the United States. Fraud would be punished by stiff penalties and fines, and mandatory imprisonment for company officers. Little stuff like that. - Joe

[J.Pluta]

Another example of why visas must go

It's been brought to my attention that the campus itself is probably not new, and in fact is probably five years old. But the jobs are new! Posted today, in fact...

[David Abramowitz]

Another example of why visas must go

You can actually escalate this. If you have evidence, or even suspicion that a firm is violating the provisions of visa laws, you can take that to your representatives local office. Staffers will help you contact the appropriate agencies with your information. The staffers may even do it themselves on your behalf. Working within the political process is not that painful. Even when your reps are not of your own political affiliation, they are there to help, and if approached correctly even a cynical attitude like my own can be mollified. Dave

[nycsusan@hotmail.com]

Another example of why visas must go

BusinessWeek Online A New Tide in Offshore Outsourcing "Any number of academics attempt to minimize the effects of the offshore outsourcing phenomenon by reassuring us that new jobs will take the place of the hundreds of thousands of programming, call-center, and other jobs shipped out to Asian countries. They frequently point to the U.S. at the start of the 1900s, when about half the population worked in farming. Today, only about 5% of the population farms, with all kinds of jobs having replaced farm labor. .... " http://biz.yahoo.com/bizwk/040113/sb200401120920_1.html And did anyone watch "60 Minutes" last weekend? There was a piece about call centers in India ... how they use "American" names on the phone and how they are taught American slang and speech patterns. Very interesting ...

[David Abramowitz]

Another example of why visas must go

It doesn't always work. Dell recently announced that it was removing their call centers from India, and restoring them to the U.S. because of the large numbers of complaints. Here's what people forget about outsourcing: You don't save money if you replace one individual (A) making $X. with two individuals (B) making $X/2 (or even $X/3) where any given task takes twice as long to accomplish using (B). Even this equation doesn't take into account the quality, viability, and durability of the end product. OTOH, and as previously stated, most execs will ignore the reality of these equations because their reputations, and careers are dependent on the a positive spin to their decision. In this case the outsourcing decision. This is also why a recent poll stated that the higher up on the corporate ladder and individual is, the less credibility the individual has. Dave

[Guest.Visitor]

Another example of why visas must go

I like specifics. Here goes, I once mentioned South America and outsourcing and didn't get specific, but since in this article you link to does I thought you might enjoy? this. Inchcape had large AS/400 shop with VP of Western Hemishpere in Mobile, Ala. VP was instumental in moving off of AS/400 to programmers located in South American country for total rewrite(cheap), where he flew constantly and was escorted to and from the airport in Black Suburbans with automatic weapons at the ready. This started maybe 5 years ago. Reason I heard was AS/400 was not sexy enough, didn't make the corp look like it was modern or worth enough money (stock crap). As soon as everything is working, like about 5 years of business disruption, VP is parachuted out for a, get this, sexier, younger model. Probably makes the stock look like its worth .0000001 more. Pretty fitting. Any of you former Inchcape programmers out there? Is this what happened?

[Guest.Visitor]

Another example of why visas must go

That VP of Inchcape was a friend of the Manager at Bluementhal in N.O. La. I had telephone interview with Bluementhal they were looking for people, about 3 1/2 yrs ago. The two friends talked and the next thing I know I heard Bluementhal had outsourced its staff offshore somewhere due to the influence of what was going on at Inchcape. Any body know if this is what truly happened? This was/is a multi AS/400 environment.

[Guest.Visitor]

Another example of why visas must go

David said: "most execs will ignore the reality of these equations" I just love to see the generalizations such as "most execs" in anti-management comments. These words could just as easily have come from a shop steward of a union. As a manager a programmer might be offended if I were to say "most programmers" daydream all day long and take 8 hours to change 2 lines of code while they surf the Internet in search of MP3 files. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[Guest.Visitor]

Another example of why visas must go

Striking a nerve there Chuck?!?!? Another management axiom "if you have 4 hours work and 8 hours to do it, the work will fill the void......". Something I thinnk (All non-It MBA's) are taught, whatever the "I.T." people say they need, cut it in half!!!!

[J.Pluta]

Another example of why visas must go

I hate to constantly return to this issue, but here is a very real situation: Sun Microsystems is opening a new campus in Brookfield, Colorado. The campus hasn't even been opened yet. Phase one will consist of 1800 employees. Sun has engineered the situation so that they can hire H-1B labor. How? The positions are supposedly "New College Graduates", yet these positions require 5, 6 or even more years of experience and a bachelor's degree, plus in many cases specific knowledge of various Sun systems. This is all completely documented on Sun's site: http://www.sun.com/corp_emp/colorado/search.cgi Here in fact is a typical profile: http://www.sun.com/corp_emp/colorado...cgi?req=533561 The place isn't even open yet. The Dice.Com listing says ten years experience required and "VERY" competitive salary for this particular position. Other similar positions have just been posted. I don't know wbhat you'd expect for someone in this position with these skills and this background, but my guess is at least $80-100K, right? Remember, they JUST POSTED this announcement. And yet, Sun is ALREADY APPLYING for well over 1000 H-1B visas in Broomfield alone, with salaries of under $50K. 1800 new jobs. 5, 6, 8, 10 years experience. Being farmed out for under $50K. Draw your own conclusions. Joe

[David Abramowitz]

Another example of why visas must go

Chuck, The comments were not anti-management, just a consistent empirical observation over the past thirty years. I have met extraordinarily few executives (among the many that I have had the privilege to associate with) who would own up to a decision that was not working, and then reverse the decision, or at least cut their losses. Such action, when I have seen it taken, was taken by a change of management, and not by the original decision maker. Dave

[Guest.Visitor]

Another example of why visas must go

David said: "I have met extraordinarily few executives (among the many that I have had the privilege to associate with) who would own up to a decision that was not working, and then reverse the decision, or at least cut their losses." My experiences are just the opposite. I've worked with many managers that will reevaluate a project, determine if it's going in the right direction and stop and make a right turn if it's not working properly. In fact, I've done this myself a number of times. I've always lived by the adage, "if you want to be successful hang around successful people." Thus I've tried to pick working environments where I had the best chance at success. I've had 1 or 2 clunkers over the years but didn't stay long enough for them to bring me down. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.