Commercial Software Piracy

[dmjae2004@yahoo.com]

Commercial Software Piracy

Joe, I took the point of Chuck's comments to be about a current lack of trust in leadership and government. Personally, I don't worry about the WMD issue. Like many of my fellow Americans, I support the actions in Iraq just on the issue that I don't want a man capable of gassing his own people to be in charge of the fifth largest army in the world AND in control of large amounts of the world's oil reserves. WMD or no WMD, It is this attitude thats sets up the US against the rest of the world. IRAQ was a country with the entitlements of Soverignty. Hussein had to go, and the only reason the UN didn't agree is because he was paying them not to. I dont believe any of the countries listed are on the UN Security Council. My God, all the free trade advocates should be thrilled that China is selling software at the price it costs to manufacture the disk. What does illegally selling software have to do with Free Trade ?

[A.Garrison]

Commercial Software Piracy

China is now trying to produce software and sell it worldwide. Lets see if they allow us to copy at will without regard to international copyright. Or will we see they think only China should be allowed to use software for free? Wonder if all this discussion about different cultures works only if its to China's advantage. http://www.javalobby.org/thread.jspa...threadID=10896

[J.Pluta]

Commercial Software Piracy

"Iraq was a country with the entitlements of sovereignity." Which it abused through reneging on Resolution 1441, not to mention its crimes against its own people. If you don't think Hussein should have been deposed, then you're simply ignoring the facts. "I dont believe any of the countries listed are on the UN Security Council." You believe wrongly. How about France and Russia? "What does illegaly selling software have to do with Free Trade?" First off, capitalizing it doesn't make it any more legitimate. The free trade concept is that there should be no borders, and every company should get its labor and raw materials from the cheapest possible source, regardless of the economic impact. Therein lies the problem, though. Free trade is based on accepting the practices of the country you are trading with. There is fundamentally no difference between accepting labor from countries that don't practice our ethical standards of labor laws and accepting software from countries that don't practice our ethical standards of copyright protection. Mass copying of software in China is not illegal. The reason many countries can compete with us is because they don't live up to our ethical standards. My position is that until they do, they should not be allowed to replace us, either in goods or services. They should be forced to raise their internal standards to an acceptable level until they are let into the global playing field. This position, however, is directly contrary to the free trade concept. Free trade means it's okay to trade with anyone, anytime. If you believe that, then don't complain about China mass producing disks. They just follow their own rules, and that's what free trade is all about: cheapest is best. And despite Chuck's constant complaint that American consumers demand low-priced goods, the truth is that this particular American consumer (and many of his friends and family) are just fine paying a bit more. In fact, it's the multinational conglomerates such as Walmart who force artificially low prices on the industry in order to cripple competition and take over the market. In general they do this by taking advantage of substandard living conditions and unethical practices in poor countries, all in the name of "free trade". Free trade does not mean fair trade. Joe

[Guest.Visitor]

Commercial Software Piracy

Joe said: "Oh lord, give Chuck any excuse to once again bring up the tired old WMD issue." While I agree with almost all of your stand on the Iraq war, the "tired old WMD issue" will never go away. It's a source of embarrassment for the government, both Republican and Democrats alike. As more and more people die and, like Viet Nam, the American public's patience wanes the WMD issue will come up again and again. And, thus, I used it as an example of reason's why we wouldn't trust our government, not a reason to bring up an old discussion. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[Guest.Visitor]

Commercial Software Piracy

Joe Pluta said: "And despite Chuck's constant complaint that American consumers demand low-priced goods, the truth is that this particular American consumer (and many of his friends and family) are just fine paying a bit more." I too pay more most of the time. Alas, I fear we are all in the VAST minority here. Joe added: "In fact, it's the multinational conglomerates such as Walmart" Is Walmart a conglomerate? I didn't know that. What other companies does Walmart own? Joe said about Walmart: "who force artificially low prices on the industry in order to cripple competition and take over the market." Not all of their prices can be artificially low. They make huge profits! Joe ranted about WalMart: "In general they do this by taking advantage of substandard living conditions and unethical practices in poor countries, all in the name of "free trade"." I expect if you look at most, if not all, reatilers they all do the same. They just aren't as successful at MARKETING as WalMart. Where do you think that TV you're watching was made? Where do you think that keyboard you typed this message on was made? Where do you think the monitor on which you saw my previous message was made? It certainly wasn't America! I'd be willing to bet it was in an Asian country with low wages. Probably China. So, don't blame WalMart for doing what everybody else does better. Joe finished with: "Free trade does not mean fair trade." Anyone who expects fairness in life is destined to have a very unhappy life. Life simply isn't fair, it never was and never will be. We can NOT legislate fairness. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[Guest.Visitor]

Commercial Software Piracy

They don't have to worry about us copying their software, they know our government will enforce the copyright laws on our citizens. Just as we exploit their low wage employees, they'll exploit our legal system. Every country has something that can be exploited. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "alexgarrison" wrote in message news:6aea955e.16@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > > > China is now trying to produce software and sell it worldwide. Lets see if they allow us to copy at will without regard to international copyright. Or will we see they think only China should be allowed to use software for free? Wonder if all this discussion about different cultures works only if its to China's advantage. > > <http://www.javalobby.org/thread.jspa...threadID=10896>

[J.Pluta]

Commercial Software Piracy

Chuck, how about doing even a little bit of research? Until you start doing that, it's useless to argue with you. Among things owned by Walmart: Sam's Club, Asda, McLane. I'd find more, but I don't feel like wasting another 30 seconds countering your unsubstantianted ramblings. And my point is that it's not the American consumer who demands the low prices, it's the companies vying for consumer dollars and using unethical trade tactics to provide unrealistically low prices thus forcing their competition to do the same thing to stay in business. And we CAN legislate against unfair and unethical business practices, although it would require getting out of the likes of the WTO and NAFTA. Enough. This is OAATTWOI. Any more discussion is a waste of time. Joe

[dmjae2004@yahoo.com]

Commercial Software Piracy

"I dont believe any of the countries listed are on the UN Security Council." You believe wrongly. How about France and Russia? You are correct. I just didnt bother to go back to the first page of the article. In response to your views of free trade, I disagree. First off, capitalizing it doesn't make it any more legitimate. The implication is there are rules and processes around the definition. Thats why they are labelled "Free Trade Agreements" Free trade is based on accepting the practices of the country you are trading with. In reality participation in WTO has required a number of countries to alter their rules and practices. Mass copying of software in China is not illegal. I think it is...China Article The reason many countries can compete with us is because they don't live up to our ethical standards. In what way ? Looking at the business and professional services costs I would suggest that the legal/insurance overheads compared to other countries (both developed and underdeveloped) are a significant contribution. My position is that until they do, they should not be allowed to replace us, either in goods or services. They should be forced to raise their internal standards to an acceptable level until they are let into the global playing field. By what set of values do you define ethically acceptable. For example based on their values the Irish would suggest that while the USA allows abortion that is an ethical imbalance. Free trade means it's okay to trade with anyone, anytime. If you believe that, then don't complain about China mass producing disks. Again participation in the WTO has not shown this to be the case. As part of joining the WTO a number of countries have ceased turning a blind eye to software piracy. Personally I am more upset by the lack of Human Rights in China than I am about the prevelance of software privacy. Free trade does not mean fair trade. We agree on this statement.

[J.Pluta]

Commercial Software Piracy

I'm not going to get into a long dragged out discussion. There seem to be areas where we have fundamental differences that will stop any meaningful conversation. Joe: The reason many countries can compete with us is because they don't live up to our ethical standards. Dave: In what way ? Looking at the business and professional services costs I would suggest that the legal/insurance overheads compared to other countries (both developed and underdeveloped) are a significant contribution. This is nonsense. Removing ALL insurance costs will not drop labor rates to pennies an hour, which is what third-world sweatshops pay. Unless you have some numbers to back up your claims, this is a baseless argument. On the other hand, by not providing the same standard of living to their people (in health, welfare, education, legal and so on) it's quite easy for poorer countries to compete with the US. My position is that until they do, they should not be allowed to replace us, either in goods or services. They should be forced to raise their internal standards to an acceptable level until they are let into the global playing field. Dave: By what set of values do you define ethically acceptable. For example based on their values the Irish would suggest that while the USA allows abortion that is an ethical imbalance. Cripes. Abortion has nothing to do with labor, you're simply trying to raise the emotional stakes of the conversation. And I don't care what other countries think of us; I care that countries that compete for American jobs provide their workers with the same standard of living we have. Joe

[Guest.Visitor]

Commercial Software Piracy

When Chuck asked the honest question: "Is Wal-Mart a conglomerate? I didn't know that. What other companies does Wal-Mart own?" Joe took the opportunity to pounce: "Among things owned by Walmart: Sam's Club, Asda, McLane. I'd find more, but I don't feel like wasting another 30 seconds countering your unsubstantianted ramblings." What was unsubstatiated about my question? I think you may have lost all objectivity here, Joe. Joe stated: "And my point is that it's not the American consumer who demands the low prices, it's the companies vying for consumer dollars" Marketing 101 says that retailers give the consumer what they want. If they don't they fail. Don't muddle the facts: The American consumer shops at WalMart because it's CHEAP, not because of it's lovely decor! I live an a nice neighborhood where the local mall has a Neiman Marcus, a Robinsons-May and other high end stores but you know where I run into neighbors? Costco and WalMart. Joe claimed: "And we CAN legislate against unfair and unethical business practices," Yes we can. And, of course you're willing to pay for the enormous amount of bureaucrats that it would take to travel to Asia and other countries to inspect and enforce these laws? Or would we be willing to punish companies based upon hearsay or the diatribe found on web sites without any hard proof? Joe finalized by stating: "Any more discussion is a waste of time." Often said just before a country goes to war. The best aversion to war is discussion. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[dmjae2004@yahoo.com]

Commercial Software Piracy

Dave: In what way ? Looking at the business and professional services costs I would suggest that the legal/insurance overheads compared to other countries (both developed and underdeveloped) are a significant contribution. This is nonsense. Removing ALL insurance costs will not drop labor rates to pennies an hour, which is what third-world sweatshops pay. Read what I wrote ! What developed countries do you know that pay pennies an hour ? ... And I don't care what other countries think of us; Your are right, we have fundamentally different views. I do not think the rest of the world wants to be just like the USA. You have an amazing lack of ability to appreciate or accomodate other people's values or opinions.

[J.Pluta]

Commercial Software Piracy

"What was unsubstatiated about my question?" This is so pointless. First off, it wouldn't matter to the argument whether Walmart was or was not a conglomerate; you were simply nitpicking irrelevant details, which is basically what you do. But the really annoying part is that you didn't even bother to do the thirty seconds of analysis required to type "owned by Walmart" into Google, instead lofting in your factually baseless opinion that Walmart was not a conglomerate. That's what was unsubstantiated. You can come up with whatever excuse you want to not have done the research, but in reality you're just more interested in arguing than in the truth. And since you've wasted my time not once but TWICE with your lack of intellectual rigor, I'll go back to avoiding comment on your posts. Joe

[Guest.Visitor]

Commercial Software Piracy

Joe said: "I care that countries that compete for American jobs provide their workers with the same standard of living we have." Ah, yes. America the gatekeeper of the world. Is it any wonder the rest of the world hates us? chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[Guest.Visitor]

Commercial Software Piracy

Joe said: "But the really annoying part is that you didn't even bother to do the thirty seconds of analysis required to type "owned by Walmart" into Google," I didn't need to, I knew you would. Joe said: "instead lofting in your factually baseless opinion that Walmart was not a conglomerate. That's what was unsubstantiated." Joe, you're a funny guy. I know you don't mean to be but you are! If you read my comment, which I purposely posted a second time (and now will post for a third time) you'll see that I offered no opinion at all! I only asked a question. Here's what Chuck said: "Is Wal-Mart a conglomerate? I didn't know that. What other companies does Wal-Mart own?" Somehow you read that question twice, and now a third time, and felt that I was voicing an opinion. Do you put so little reasoning into writing of books? Joe claimed: "And since you've wasted my time not once but TWICE with your lack of intellectual rigor, I'll go back to avoiding comment on your posts." Ignore all you want. I agree with the "lack of intellectual rigor" but disagree on who propogates it. I don't know why you take this all so personally when it is I who should be offended! But, alas, I'm not. I have a thick skin. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[David Abramowitz]

Commercial Software Piracy

Chuck Ackerman asked: Do you put so little reasoning into writing of books?. Gentlemen, This has gotten way out of hand. One should know and understand the difference between attacking an arguement, and attacking the individual. AND I DON'T CARE WHO STARTED IT! FWIW, Joe's books are pretty damn good. I tell ya what. You guys come to NY, and the beer is on me. Dave