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Commercial Software Piracy

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  • J.Pluta
    replied
    Commercial Software Piracy

    Chuck: "We were told that eliminating WMDs in Iraq would protect the survival of our way of life. It's unlikely that the general public will put up with another hand waving by the government." Oh lord, give Chuck any excuse to once again bring up the tired old WMD issue. As has been said on numerous occasions, the reasons for going into Iraq were many, and reached far beyond WMD. However, despite the constant reneging of the Hussein regime on various treaty promises, members of the security council refused to actually enforce the treaties. The US continued to try create a coalition that included the sceurity council, and only until we brought up the issue of WMD were some of these countries willing to even entertain the notion. And now we know why. It's because some countries on the security council, and people at the highest levels of the UN, were taking massive bribes from Hussein. No wonder they wouldn't actually enforce their own edicts - because it meant losing all that money. Personally, I don't worry about the WMD issue. Like many of my fellow Americans, I support the actions in Iraq just on the issue that I don't want a man capable of gassing his own people to be in charge of the fifth largest army in the world AND in control of large amounts of the world's oil reserves. WMD or no WMD, Hussein had to go, and the only reason the UN didn't agree is because he was paying them not to. I have no problem with the administration's position on Iraq, and it has no bearing on the current jobs situation, or on the issue of software "piracy", so it really doesn't belong in this discussion. I don't know why you folks are crying about the issue, anyway (you especially, Brian). My God, all the free trade advocates should be thrilled that China is selling software at the price it costs to manufacture the disk. According to the principles of free trade, this is simply economics in action. If it's fair that American workers have to compete with workers with a standard of living one tenth of ours, then it's fair for software manufacturers to compete with guys who are willing to press disks at cost. Of course, it's not fair, but to admit that would mean having to abandon the free trade mantra as the indefensible pseudo-intellectualism that it truly is. In any event, the backhanded WMD comment is simply unwarranted. Joe

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Commercial Software Piracy

    When future shock finally catches up with itself long range fixes may become popular again along with the will to wait them out. I refuse to believe that having a large population guarantees dominance in anything except lunch time. I believe that when my son enlisted a couple of days ago he demonstrated that he shares some of those beliefs, and thank GOD, most of those from the sixties who don't share those beliefs are being naturally phased out.

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  • tdaly@sddsystems.com
    replied
    Commercial Software Piracy

    You're right, we do need to "step up" as you put it. It's a case of "pay me now, pay me later." The longer we stave off the reckoning the worse it will be. One way or the other we will pay, just a matter of how much and when. But it's bigger than just software. It's the entire globaloney we're being fed. Perhaps my biggest beef with NAFTA/GATT/WTO/FTAA and ICC etc. is that we - the people of USA or any other country - are supposed to obey the edicts, "laws", and "rulings" of these organizations yet no one has ever ever voted for any "official" in any of these organizations! Self appointed rulers. People do need to wake up AND step up PDQ. It's all about the ruling class having a global pool of labor. And mgmt/owners/capital are bottom feeders when it comes to labor costs - always have been. Think back to "robber baron" times. But since then our society/culture/system has had a hundred years to build up countervailing forces that reflect our collective values about human dignity & decency (child labor for instance), safety, environment, cleanliness of food, and many other standards and qualities that set this country, and "The West" generally, apart. But these are all being stripped away now. Just this week on Lou Dobbs Rep. David Dreier stated that Americans' competition with the lowest wage in the world was good! I wish I had tape rolling so I could have captured his exact words. But you'll have to excuse me now, I've got some hepatitis laden berries from Mexico to eat. just my 2 cents Tom D.
    > So we'll keep "saving" all the way to third world status, unless people step up.
    > The ramifications of tariffs are big... we've got to be prepared to endure that if we want to ensure the whole rug doesn't get pulled out from under us.

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  • R.Daugherty
    replied
    Commercial Software Piracy

    Well certainly you have a good point there, Chuck, but many people have either lost their jobs or are worried about losing their jobs, and it's not just an academic hand waving exercise for them. It's survival, and they care very much about what we as a nation are going to do. Should they trust that "free enterprise" is going to address the disappearance of their jobs? Many may not trust "government", but there are very few that trust that someone in business has their future employment prospects high on their list of concerns. Those who think government creates problems and theory solves them don't have a problem to address... yet. rd

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Commercial Software Piracy

    Ralph said :"but I do believe that placed in context with economic survival that Americans will support action to protect the survival of our way of life." We were told that eliminating WMDs in Iraq would protect the survival of our way of life. It's unlikely that the general public will put up with another hand waving by the government. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

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  • R.Daugherty
    replied
    Commercial Software Piracy

    I agree on principle, Chuck and Brian, but I do believe that placed in context with economic survival that Americans will support action to protect the survival of our way of life. I also agree it would never happen on an individual basis by some kind of consumer choice in purchasing, trying to buy Made in US and boycotting Made in China for example. My solution that I posted not long ago was a self correcting tariff on imports, services and goods from both foreign and domestic companies, based on the share of trade deficit the country owned. For example, we are running a $100 billion trade deficit with China out of a total $500 billion trade deficit. A 20% import tariff would be applied immediately to any imported goods or services primarily from China. This tariff would be adjusted quarterly to reflect how fully engaged a country is in trade with America, not just exporting to America. The revenue from the import tariffs would be used for government puchases of Made in US goods. This also has the effect of dealing with any currency manipulations a country such as China engages in. We correct it for them with the tariff. The import trade tariff is actually a quicker and less destructive self correcting mechanism than currency revaluations. Sure the trade deficit is self correcting in the long run, but only after our dollar collapses. We have to deal with it before our dollar and our way of life collapses. This would also require us to withdraw from NAFTA and the World Trade Organization, but we would continue to honor the principles of those agreements while reserving the right to apply tariffs to countries who are not participating in actual trade with us. We likewise should expect the same applied to our goods by others if they wish, but any foreign aid from us to them should apply to the trade balance figures. However, a trade tariff only indirectly addresses stealing of intellectual property. If software, books, music, and movies are bought instead of stolen, we likely would not have a trade deficit with a country, so to that degree this measure has the desirable effect of encouraging purchase of our intellectual property goods. But we should also link theft of intellectual property with the rights of that country to perform outsourced intellectual property work fromm American companies as well. If they don't honor our intellectual property, then American companies should not have the honor of offshoring their intellectual property work to a country that has no honor for American intellectual property but does expect us to pay them for their work. rd

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Commercial Software Piracy

    What gets me steamed is looking at it from a jobs perspective. We're shipping mfg jobs abroad, because we're supposed to doing something better by using our brains. So we do, and we make a huge, state-of-the-art industry in software. And they steal our stuff and use it to build and run their businesses, all the while pulling jobs from us. Nice job. In the meantime, our new industry gets decimated, but imagine how it might have been different if we had the profits that the stolen software represents. Chuck, you're right about the addiction to imports. Until people figure it out, no politician would survive a 20% (or whatever) price hike at WalMart that was a side-effect of a policy they championed. So we'll keep "saving" all the way to third world status, unless people step up. The ramifications of tariffs are big. They could mean inflation, which would mean interest rate hikes, which would mean a housing bubble pop and an economic slowdown. Yucko! But we've got to be prepared to endure that if we want to ensure the whole rug doesn't get pulled out from under us. And whether or not their communist or capitalistic doesn't matter - stealing is stealing. We made/promoted the rules regarding free trade. We need to make sure they become more even and that parties honor them. I know, there are worse problems in the world than software piracy. But still... Brian

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Commercial Software Piracy

    Ralph said: "We don't have to tell them how to live, but we sure don't have to allow them to sell to us while they steal our goods either, despite what economic purists say." You've hit the nail directly on the head. Our only recourse is to fight them by not buying their goods. Or, congress can enact tariffs that make their products too expensive to buy. Alas, neither one of these things will happen. Why, because Americans are addicted to cheap imports. It's an addiction that Americans will not voluntarily stop (except for a few die hard protesters) and any legislator that tries to enact such legislation will be promptly sent home to join the unemployment lines. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Commercial Software Piracy

    David said: "Theft is theft, be it tangible, or intellectual. A copyright, or a patent is merely one form of proof of ownership. " Again, I must disagree. Your thinking is based upon the rules that WE live by. Whether they were created this century or 5,000 years ago is irrelevent. The Chinese live by different rules and, possibly, their rules may predate ours! Just because we say it's so, don't necessarily make it so. David said: "For an individual, or an entity to use the property of others for their own benefit without the permission of the owner is stealing." Ok, let's look at this differently. Presume I'm a construction worker and I create a road that connects two cities. I claim ownership of this road and you claim must pay me anytime you use the road. "No," you say, "you created that road under the authority of the government and anything you do while working for the government belongs to the people." "Aha," I say, "according to the rules of the communist party anything that is created belongs to the government including software, music or writings." "Sigh," you say, "you just don't get it, do you Chuck? The copyrighted material wasn't created in China, it was created in the U.S. where we have copyright laws, China must abide by those laws." Alas, that may be true, but once that copyrighted material gets into China they can have laws stating that it's public domain. After all, we have laws protecting our citizens from being jailed without being charged. Yet, if you're not a U.S. citizen and we arbitrarily say you committed a war crime then we can put you in jail forever without ever letting you see your lawyer much to the chagrin of other countries. The world is full of double standards and the copyright one is just an example. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

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  • R.Daugherty
    replied
    Commercial Software Piracy

    Good post, Brian. Anyone who makes a living in creating software, music, books, and movies knows that the communist and ex-communist world is stealing their work while also underbidding anyone living in more than a cardboard box for work. In addition, any innovations the capitalist world creates is ripped off as well by communists. It is clearly economic war, not mutual economic gains, as practiced by communists. We don't have to tell them how to live, but we sure don't have to allow them to sell to us while they steal our goods either, despite what economic purists say. An economic purist, by the way, is someone whose theories haven't met reality yet. rd

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  • David Abramowitz
    replied
    Commercial Software Piracy

    Chuck Ackerman wrote: What I am saying is that this is a complicated world and not every country lives by the rules that we Americans establish. Americans did not establish these rules. The concept of "Thou Shalt not Steal", the code of Hammurabi, and other even earlier treatises occurred a few years before the founding of the United States. Theft is theft, be it tangible, or intellectual. A copyright, or a patent is merely one form of proof of ownership. For an individual, or an entity to use the property of others for their own benefit without the permission of the owner is stealing. As communistic as China may be, those who are flagrantly disregarding international intellectual property laws are doing so for capitalistic purposes. Dave

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest started a topic Commercial Software Piracy

    Commercial Software Piracy

    Brian, While I agree with you that copying of copyrighted works is not fair, I must add that it's not fair "by the rules that we established." In a capitalistic society, as we are, you need rules to protect intellectual property. However, in China they are communistic society where, by definition, there are no individual intellectual property rights. Everything is the property of the state. What I am saying is that this is a complicated world and not every country lives by the rules that we Americans establish. Imagine, if you will, if you were Chinese and you just despised the Americans for trying to force their rules of copyright on you. While I believe in our way of life and our belief system, I also see the fact that we can't force our beliefs on others. We can try by using adding duty taxes and other methods to try to punish other countries into submission, but eventually that will fail. Especially with China. Some time in the future, whether we like it or not, China will be the big bully on the block forcing everyone to conform to their ideals. They are just too big and are just now being awakened. We will no longer be able to bully everyone around. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. "B_Sing" wrote in message news:6aea955e.-1@WebX.WawyahGHajS... > I've been reading some things about intellectual property in regards to trade with China and other countries. While there seem to be new "bad deals" that pop up all the time, I hadn't given much thought to piracy until recently. I've been to Russia, and I've been to their CD stores. They're all over the place, they're real stores with real fixtures, and they'll sell you a CD full of the latest and greatest commercial software for $3. They've got racks and racks full of these CDs, many with several top-dollar software packages from various mainstream companies on a single CD. For $30, you can get $50,000 or more worth of current-version software. > > From what I read, it's like that in other parts of the world too. Now think about it. We're filling places like WalMart with tons of imports, and we've got trade deficits with places like China. That means they're not buying as much of our stuff as we're buying of theirs. Why would they buy it from us when they can just copy it? And their governments let them get away with it! I bet they even collect taxes from it. That sucks bad. Think of the lost revenue, even if it was 1/10th of what they steal through piracy. They would actually have to pay for our innovation or do it themselves. What a concept! > > So we have to buy their products because we can't just clone them, but the same is not true for selling some of our products to them. That sucks. Good thing people are trying to do something about it <http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...us_china_trade _040422132058>, but kinda late, huh? And we'll see how far it gets. > > Sorry, had to get that off my chest. Rant complete. > > Brian
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