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  • #31
    So...

    Joe, Where are you situated? Is it really a depressed area? I've seen a lot of job postings for iSeries professionals with juicy perks and salary offers in the eastcoast and westcoast. The only problem I guess, is relocation which is not offered unlike before. But hey, people like me are taking a big risk by coming over this beautiful US of A without relocation and bringing only a single luggage to start with. Your forefathers started it this way. Right ??? This is the American way. Never give up, explore new frontiers, compete and be creative - these are time tested formula to be a winner.

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    • #32
      So...

      "I do understand that you and other posters are seeing something completely different. Hence my interest in this thread. Thought perhaps you might want to know that not everyone is seeing what you are seeing in the marketplace." That's great news, Alex. Maybe the recovery is starting, and maybe it's starting in the second-tier markets. And by that I mean no disrespect; when I say second, I am implying there are third and fourth tier areas. I consider Memphis and Jackson to be second tier areas with lots of technology, especially in the wireless arena. But the larger areas are definitely not yet seeing the growth. Joe

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      • #33
        So...

        A. I'm in the Chicago metro area, arguably the strongest area for iSeries development in the world. B. Show me some of these job postings, please. C. The American way is to come here as an immigrant, take entry-level jobs, work hard, send your kids to school, and within a generation or two gain the American dream. It is NOT to come here and displace an American worker from a high-paying professional job. Joe

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        • #34
          So...

          Joe Pluta wrote: C. The American way is to come here as an immigrant, take entry-level jobs, work hard, send your kids to school, and within a generation or two gain the American dream. It is NOT to come here and displace an American worker from a high-paying professional job. Wellllllll, it is the Ellis Island experience for the most part. OTOH, Bob Hope came through Ellis Island. OTOOH it is important to note that even during the Ellis Island heyday, not all immigrants were processed in this fashion. Many became successful in the first generation, and there are those in the fourth or fifth generation still living below the poverty line. As a contributor to the Ellis Island foundation I am aware of the oral history project so important to the American Dream. There is very little, and yet so much that the immigrants had in common. The paradox is solved by the fact that during this period, the biggest goal, the largest objective, was simply to become an American. Dave

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          • #35
            So...

            Got this from one of the ERP News Groups # U.S. Students Shunning Computer Sciences on Offshoring Fears # Read News: http://erp.ITtoolbox.com/r/hdr.asp?r=22600

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            • #36
              So...

              Key phrase of following article: "... as labor in India becomes more expensive, outsourcing companies will shift more and more work to China." http://www.informationweek.com/story...cleID=18402582

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              • #37
                So...

                Joe said: "The American way is to come here as an immigrant, take entry-level jobs, work hard, send your kids to school, and within a generation or two gain the American dream. It is NOT to come here and displace an American worker from a high-paying professional job." First of, you sound like a red neck beating a dead dog. Second, your parochial line of thinking is very way off to the impression of new immigrants, especially US coming from the IT community. For your information, WE the new kid in town are professionals, want a decent paying job and enjoy the fruits of our labor while still young for life is short. Are you kidding me, to wait for a generartion or two to realize the AMERICAN DREAM. No way Jose, I can achieved it NOW. I have this proverb for you to keep. "It is not what you EARN, but what you SAVE". And always keep it in my mind. We're now in the internet AGE so move on my friend, don't go back to the Ellis Island days mentality. Our airport of entry is now O'Hare, ironically your beautiful city of Chicago.

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                • #38
                  So...

                  Excuse me? Red neck? Dead dog? First off, I highly suggest you tone down your rhetoric; we try to keep a slightly more civil tone here. But even if you choose to be a jerk, at least try to use the correct colloquialisms. The proper form is "redneck", all one word, and one beats a dead horse, not a dead dog. Second, I hardly think you're in any more of a position to voice the impressions of new immigrants than I am. My grandparents came to this country from Europe, my son is married to an Iraqi. I'm well aware of the concept of how immigration works in the United States. How did you get into this country? Are you a citizen? Where do you live? Is your family here? Regarding a decent paying job, why do you feel you deserve one in this country? What exactly have you done that gives you the right to displace an American worker? Why not work in your own country? As to "It is not what you EARN, but what you SAVE," that phrase doesn't even apply to the conversation, but at least you got the words right. I suggest all IT outsourcers take a VERY careful look at the statement from this guy. He deserves a high-paying job and HE WANTS IT NOW. No working, no saving, no building a family or community. He just wants the benjamins. Hire him, and watch as he flies to the next high-paying job, leaving you holding the "fruit of his labors". My guess? Not a particularly sweet smelling fruit. And finally, despite my attempts to not take it personally, you have managed to annoy me with your bombast. You can call me a lot of things, but "your friend" is not one of them. Joe

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                  • #39
                    So...

                    This is most important. IMO, the damage that this will do to our nation short and long term (if left unchecked) is immeasurable. Without a domestic pool of IT people to choose from, there is the great potential of security damage. It becomes fairly easy to predict a future security, or even military breach which will eventually be traced back to the policy of permitting outsourcing, and even giving the companies that use outsourcing services considerable tax breaks for doing so.
                    Another angle to this topic. I recently read where there are business battles between outsourcing firms in India. Some are consolidating, and others are going out of business. I can imagine the CEO who several months ago committed all resources, programming and data to the outsourcing effort, only to find that 5,000 miles away, the doors are closed, and the data is gone. Dave

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                    • #40
                      So...

                      Joe, You said: "The proper form is "redneck", all one word, and one beats a dead horse, not a dead dog." Now your talking technical english here, "form" is grammatically incorrect, it should be "syntax". Remember the very common compiler error. The idiomatic expression is "BEATS A DEAD ANIMAL" like "BARKING A TREE" a generic term, not for a specific animal like a horse or a dog. You prefer a horse, for me a dog, but you are very entitled to that. You said: "Second, I hardly think you're in any more of a position to voice the impressions of new immigrants than I am. My grandparents came to this country from Europe, my son is married to an Iraqi. I'm well aware of the concept of how immigration works in the United States." You are not an immigrant, I am... so who knows better? You can't feel what I feel. But I'm very sure your grandparents, daughter in-law and I are of the same page. Yours is a CONCEPT of how immigration works in the United States, mine is a reality not a THEORY. You said: "How did you get into this country? Are you a citizen? Where do you live? Is your family here?" These are none of your business... I will only tell you these: 1. I pay my taxes religiously - so the system will work even if it's not perfect. 2. I only have one loving partner in life - divorce is very costly and stressful. 3. Make my car, house and job here in the United States as a lifetime possession - Human resources people don't like job hoppers. You said: "Regarding a decent paying job, why do you feel you deserve one in this country? What exactly have you done that gives you the right to displace an American worker? Why not work in your own country?" Read the "Equal Opportunity Employer" manual. In short your salary is commensurate to your job, irregardless of the color of your skin, religion or race. I suggest you think out of the box. The world is getting smaller and smaller Joe, the melting pot is getting bigger and bigger thanks to the advances of new technology. Your perspective is parochial mine is global. You said: I suggest all IT outsourcers take a VERY careful look at the statement from this guy. He deserves a high-paying job and HE WANTS IT NOW. No working, no saving, no building a family or community. He just wants the benjamins. Hire him, and watch as he flies to the next high-paying job, leaving you holding the "fruit of his labors". My guess? Not a particularly sweet smelling fruit." I said A DECENT PAYING JOB - read my post please. So what's the problem of having aspirations and ambitions in life. I work hardly and smartly, I save for the future of me and my family, and I am very active in my church and my community!!! You're misquoting me with your lies. Speak for yourself. You can't read what's in my mind - Be a MAN. To ASSUME will make an ASS out of U and ME. You sound very pathetic - sorry. You said: "And finally, despite my attempts to not take it personally, you have managed to annoy me with your bombast. You can call me a lot of things, but "your friend" is not one of them." I bought your book, so as a customer be nice to me and to all your IMMIGRANT market.

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                      • #41
                        So...

                        Hola Kumargovindas, If you indeed make you’re living here in the USA, are you not concerned that you’re currently held job and/or your goal of upgrading your current position to a higher paying job may someday be outsourced to another country? And if so, are you doing anything about it? As an immigrant to the USA, how do you perceive this whole outsourcing situation as an American citizen? I work closely with 2 co-workers that have emigrated from India and they have both related to me that a person in India that earns $15,000.00 to $25,000.00 a year will, in their words, live like a king. Interesting indeed... Any response, (or non-response), is welcome. And now for something completely different - IMHO, the 'Immigrant song' on the Zeppelin III album is one of the best songs on the album, (all of this talk about immigrants just reminded me of this song, pretty weird, eh?).

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                        • #42
                          So...

                          "The world is getting smaller and smaller Joe, the melting pot is getting bigger and bigger thanks to the advances of new technology. Your perspective is parochial mine is global." Let's get something clear here: if you are already a US citizen, I have no problem with you competing for jobs in the US. I've always said that. Because then you compete with Americans on American soil for American jobs, and may the best man win. "These are none of your business..." Ah, I see. YOU decide what's relevant. If you won't even answer whether you are a citizen or not, then your comments have zero credence. "I bought your book, so as a customer be nice to me and to all your IMMIGRANT market." I'm as nice to people as they are to me, and I don't change that based on whether they buy my book. In any event, I'm not going to continue this conversation. You've called me names non-stop, and that has set a very uncivil tone for the conversation. Your behavior and demeanor is inappropriate in these forums. And while my comments may not have been as civil as I would like, yours are consistently antagonistic and personal and further discourse at that level would be unproductive. Joe

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                          • #43
                            So...

                            Webified, You said: " If you indeed make you’re living here in the USA, are you not concerned that you’re currently held job and/or your goal of upgrading your current position to a higher paying job may someday be outsourced to another country? " Being "OUTSOURCED" of course I'm concerned, but not worried. Let the GLOBAL MARKET dictate the supply and demand. Am I competitive? "YES". Am I prepared? "YES". Have a contingency plan in case the going gets tough (we in IT called it BACKUP). I will tell you "People who come here for a greener pasture is made of hardened heart and soul like the pilgrims" I still believe in 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration/aspiration formula. Is my current position in danger of being outsourced very immediate? I don't think so. You said: "And if so, are you doing anything about it?" This is what I'm doing: 1. I continue my education, for everyday is a learning process for me and it's a very good investment. 2. I strive to improve the quality of my work, for it is a time tested value. If my programs don't have a BUG, why will my company go to uncharted territory of OUTSOURCING. Remember the cost of implementing a new system is a ONE-TIME expense called CAPITAL EXPENDITURE, unlike the cost of manufacturing a T-shirt. This is just like swallowing a big pill. In my opinion, a CEO/CIO would want to swallow the right medicine, not a poisonous one called "OUTSOURCING" if the chemistry is not right. 3. Be attentive to my customer's needs ( we call it the USER COMMUNITY ). Remember that "SATISFACTION GUARANTEED" slogan. You said: "As an immigrant to the USA, how do you perceive this whole outsourcing situation as an American citizen?" It's a sign of a healthy GLOBAL competition. We have the technology, we have the know-how, we have the right and clear ENGLISH accent, and we have the spirit - so at the end of the day everybody is a WINNER. You said: "I work closely with 2 co-workers that have emigrated from India and they have both related to me that a person in India that earns $15,000.00 to $25,000.00 a year will, in their words, live like a king. Interesting indeed... Any response, (or non-response), is welcome. " A very interesting information, and it's to good to be true, but were you enticed to settle there? Not ME...I am just a simple man with simple needs. And I am not in favor of a MONARCHY form of government. You said: "And now for something completely different - IMHO, the 'Immigrant song' on the Zeppelin III album is one of the best songs on the album, (all of this talk about immigrants just reminded me of this song, pretty weird, eh?)." Pardon my ignorance on this topic, for I love JAZZ music my friend.

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                            • #44
                              So...

                              Joe, Who fired the first salvo? It's you with this comment: "It is NOT to come here and displace an American worker from a high-paying professional job." I am a very civil and diplomatic person. But you touched the sensitivities of IMMIGRANTS like ME. You infer that we're stealing your high-paying professional job. Which is not right. You should apologize to the thousands of the IMMIGRANT WORKERS who happens to be as PATRIOTIC and as GOD FEARING AS YOU ARE. ENOUGH...

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                              • #45
                                So...

                                Kumargovindas, Thank you for your prompt response, it is always nice to get a thoughtful reply and that is just one of the reasons why I usually like to keep up with this particular website forum. I know that the corporation that I work for wants and has begun to implement an offshore foothold in both India and China, (among other countries), so as to capitalize on the projected growth that is expected in those areas of the world. Business is business. I would not mind visiting India someday but doubt very much that I would ever really seriously want to live there. I have no way of knowing if that information about living in India on $15,000.00 to $25,000.00 a year is true, however; I do know that, (primarily due to family reasons), one of my co-workers would like to return to India and that the other prefers to stay in the USA. As the saying goes, to each their own. Jazz is cool; I generally bounce around with different genres of music depending on my mood. Sometimes the best music is none at all. Good day!

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