So...

[J.Pluta]

So...

I meant non-citizens. I am sorry if I was not clear. Are you a US citizen? Because if you are not, I believe you have no right to compete for American jobs. Joe

[ACT]

So...

Joe, It doesn't matter. Naturalized Citizen, Green Card, L1, H1 you name it. The bottom line is we play by the rules in coming over and not thru the backdoor. What we possess in coming here as a person is talent, honor and dignity. Also, we strongly believe in the system that's why we're here.

[ACT]

So...

Webified, You said: "Thanks for your reply; outsourcing strategy, India and Jazz! ;-)" You are very welcome.

[J.Pluta]

So...

"It doesn't matter. Naturalized Citizen, Green Card, L1, H1 you name it." I respectfully disagree. Non-citizens should not be allowed to work in industries where American workers cannot find employment, and companies should not be allowed to displace workers with non-citizens. Joe

[David Abramowitz]

So...

Joe Pluta wrote: Are you a US citizen? Because if you are not, I believe you have no right to compete for American jobs. Evidently the U.S. Government thinks otherwise. I, too would have to disagree with this sentiment. The process of becoming a U.S. citizen is not easy. One must be able to earn a living during the course of this process. Therefore I have no problem with non-citizens who intend to adopt U.S. citizenship from gaining legitimate employment, or even starting businesses. It is called a "green card" (even though the card is actually pink) and the status is available to all legitimate immigrants. This is also why, I have repeatedly stated that the H1-B, and L-1 visa programs are not immigration issues. In these cases, the foreign worker actually states that he/she does not intend to settle in the U.S.; does not intend to apply for citizenship; and is actually barred from doing so. Dave

[J.Pluta]

So...

"It is called a "green card" (even though the card is actually pink) and the status is available to all legitimate immigrants." I think I'm okay with green cards holders pursuing employment. Joe

[ACT]

So...

Joe, You said: "It is called a "green card" (even though the card is actually pink) and the status is available to all legitimate immigrants." I think I'm okay with green cards holders pursuing employment." "I respectfully disagree. Non-citizens should not be allowed to work in industries where American workers cannot find employment, and companies should not be allowed to displace workers with non-citizens." IGNORANCE OF THE LAW EXCUSES NO ONE - Green card holders are non-citizens, it so happen that some are coming from IT by accident. What a contradiction... In all industry there are as always an unemployed worker, and my heart go to these people. Name an industry without an unemployed worker even in good times. RETAIL, MANUFACTURING, SERVICE, MEDICAL, IT, TEXTILE, ETC. As far as I know even at BOOM times, there are still good/experienced people who can't find a job - ask a friend from Human Resources if you can, maybe they have good answers why they shut the DOOR to these people even if their is a high demand. ZERO UNEMPLOYMENT IS A MYTH. With your assertion the US should be in ISOLATION. ZERO IMMIGRATION - means the future Albert E, Jim Carrey, and Gov. Arnold of the world can't come here to contribute at whatever capacity. Thank goodness GM, FORD, INTEL, IBM and WAL-MART don't have your line of thinking. As an author of books it made you a businessman by choice, and I thought you have the right business acumen and perspective to see things as objective and impartial as possible.

[J.Pluta]

So...

"ignorance of the law excuses no one" What do you mean by this? Which law am I ignorant of? I modified my statement to clarify that I believe green-card holders should be allowed to compete for jobs, but visa holders should not. This is the same position I've always held. Joe

[ACT]

So...

Joe, You really have no clue, you mean EXPATS sponsored by multinational corporations can't work here. Give me a break... It's a common practice to rotate key personnel for these global companies. You are really very funny. People who come here as tourists can't work here. But H1, L1, TN visa holders can work, but not their dependents. IT IS LEGAL AS MANDATED BY THE INTERNATIONAL AND US LAWS. And these EXPATS are not citizens to their host countries. IT'S CALLED RECIPROCITY. To answer your question: HOW CAN A GREEN CARD HOLDER BE A CITIZEN AT THE SAME TIME? GREEN CARD HOLDERS ARE NON CITIZENS. Consult an immigration lawyer please... You said "Non-citizens should not be allowed to work in industries where American workers cannot find employment, and companies should not be allowed to displace workers with non-citizens" at the same token you said "GREEN CARD holders can work". Are you confused when you stated these statements? What can I say ?

[M.Savino]

So...

http://www.eprairie.com/news/viewnew...ID=7029&page=1

[Guest.Visitor]

So...

You gentlemen are getting a bit out of hand with this discussion. Let's try to remember who and what you are railing against. They are above us... not below or next to us. It's pretty obvious that the short term goals of outsourcing are due to money and greed. After all, why should companies pay more when they can go to countries like India or China and hire people for less than American workers? Not only are wages greater in the USA, but additional costs of doing business must be considered. Safe workplaces, health benefits, etc. It adds up pretty fast. So let's just send the work to India... "Before dawn on December 3, 1984, a holding tank at the Union Carbide pesticide factory in Bhopal, India, overheated and burst, releasing methyl isocyanate (MIC), a highly toxic gas. MIC, hydrogen cyanide and at least 65 other gases spread across the city in a cloud, killing over 5,000 people within three days. Some drowned in their own bodily fluids; others were trampled to death trying to escape. The leaves of Bhopal's trees turned black. Seventeen years later, survivors suffer from neurological disorders, breathlessness, menstrual irregularities, early cataracts, persistent coughing, loss of appetite, recurrent fever, panic attacks, memory loss and depression. At least 20,000 people have died as a result of exposure to the gases. Approximately 15-20 more die each month." Cost cutting can add up to Human lives. Maybe that's normal in other societies... but not in the US. There are other attractions to moving your workforce to India. I am sure there would be a certain appeal to Corporate Executives of a workforce who considers "all the rats you can eat" to be a generous benefit package. Witness the Irula farm workers of India - I would not be surprised to learn that they are all working for Cargill or ADM by now. "The job even turns exciting at times, becoming a literal rat race. A target lucky enough to escape the clutches of the Irulas finds freedom only momentary as the fast-moving rat catchers chase down their prey. There's also a bonus -- grain from the rats' burrows will be cooked for dinner. And so will some of the rats. They are high in protein and low in cholesterol. Many Irulas will have no other meat but rat. With their bags full, the rat patrol moves on. For the Irulas, more grain fields -- and rats -- always lie ahead." This is the attraction of a "Global Economy" to corporations - find people who have nothing to lose and exploit them. I cannot "adjust" to degradation, Sorry!

[Guest.Visitor]

So...

Anybody who starts an article with this tone is either a total freaking jerk or a corporate lackey. This is the Cliff Notes version of pro-out BS.

[B_Sing]

So...

It could be argued that many techies were overpaid, especially considering the amount of schooling/certification required vs. starting pay, relative to other professionals (accountants, stock brokers, lawyers, teachers, nurses, etc.). The landscape is changing, of course, but the old practice of being paid twice as much as other professions for half the schooling/certification requirements could be called being overpaid. That's not saying that all techies are overpaid, of course.

[Guest.Visitor]

So...

Joe explained: "Throw in people who have left the profession because they couldn't find work, people who are working in positions far below their abilities, and people who are living through multiple rounds of layoffs waiting for their jobs to be next. If you know nobody who fits any of those descriptions, then I have to believe that either you live in a special time-space vortex where IT didn't get hit, or you just don't talk to a lot of people." I must be living in a time vortex. Or the other possibility is that I have followed my late father's advice who preached to me time and time again: "If you want to be successful, surround yourself with successful people." chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

[Guest.Visitor]

So...

Joe asserted: "Your position is very much the minority as you can see from just reading this thread." A scientific poll, Joe? My experience is that those who feel wronged complain much more and much louder than those who are going along smoothly. chuck Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.